What do you want to see in the new base class. They have said there will be a curse mechanic, more important familiars and a combined divine/arcane spell list.
What spells do you want included? what kinds of familiars? what weapons should they be proficient in? what other things are there you hope are included?
I, for one, hope there is a health dose of polymorphing. Like the witch from Snow White
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I'd like for there to be general guidelines for what sorts of spells should be added to the Witch spell list in future releases, such as "All arcane spells from schools X and Y, and all divine spells from school Z at the same level as Wizards and Clerics, but all from schools L and M at one level higher" or something of the sort. This will prevent either having to add the level the Witch learns spells at into all new spell descriptions (which would, if used as an option for all new classes that come out, lead to a huge list of class abbreviations and levels for new spell entries) or leaving the Witch unsupported in future releases (which would just be disappointing).
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All I am really wanting is a very original class. In general, I am against class proliferation. So what I want from the Witch class is the same I want from any new classes...very original concepts and abilities.
Disliked many of the classes WOTC put out because they often just felt like either a way to multiclass without actually mutliclassing (beguiler comes to mind) or just like a minor variant of a core class (samurai and knight).
So something original and a niche not already filled by class-feat options or better handled with substiution levels.
Witch is such a broad concept that has been handled so many different ways.
-Weylin
Ditto. With the release of PRPG, I'm finding less of a need for all the extra classes we already have via WOTC splatbooks. So, I'm mostly looking forward to a class that fills a niche the core classes can't duplicate, easily.
As an aside, I'm also wondering how the new class will fit into all the existing mentions of witches and witchcraft in Golarion. How will this new class fit in with Baba Yaga and her kin?
I'd like for there to be general guidelines for what sorts of spells should be added to the Witch spell list in future releases, such as "All arcane spells from schools X and Y, and all divine spells from school Z at the same level as Wizards and Clerics, but all from schools L and M at one level higher" or something of the sort.
Seconded, thirded, fourthed, and further enumerated unto infinity. And that goes for every spellcasting class, not just the Witch.
Personally, I'd like to see some sort of ritual casting tied in to the witch. In other words, extremely long-casting-time spells (or other magical abilities) that may or may not require additional characters helping in the ritual, but that have more significant effects than a spell would at a similar power level.
Another thing I'd like to see (and this could actually be connected to the first suggestion) is an emphasis on metamagic. Witches in classic faerie tales/fantasy literature almost always use very quirky spells. They rarely use anything as straight-forward as a fireball; a Witch's fireball should have all sorts of exotic effects on it. (not to say that witches should necessarily get Evocation spells at all; just an example)
Creative Director
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As an aside, I'm also wondering how the new class will fit into all the existing mentions of witches and witchcraft in Golarion. How will this new class fit in with Baba Yaga and her kin?
You'll note that we generally don't assign class levels to our NPCs until we're absolutely sure we know what their classes are. This is partially because we might have plots to INVENT new classes for them.
In the case of the witch, there was already a few OGL sources to choose from, so even if we hadn't decided to make the witch a base class we could have still used those levels.
In sort... what it means for Baba Yaga's minions is that a lot of them (but not all) will have witch levels.
I think their powers should be tied to their familars.
Black Cats would have curse powers.
Ravens might have power word or truename-like powers.
Owls might have divination powers.
Monkeys would have trickster powers.
Bats would have darkness powers.
Hawks might have hunting powers.
Lizards might have deception powers (hiding and disguise)
Rats might have thieving powers.
Snakes might have poison powers.
Toads might have hallucination and illusion powers--or baleful polymorph like powers!
Weasels might have scouting and escape-like powers.
Kind of like Sorcerous Bloodlines, Clerical Domains, or Wizard Schools.
I'd like for there to be general guidelines for what sorts of spells should be added to the Witch spell list in future releases, such as "All arcane spells from schools X and Y, and all divine spells from school Z at the same level as Wizards and Clerics, but all from schools L and M at one level higher" or something of the sort.Seconded, thirded, fourthed, and further enumerated unto infinity. And that goes for every spellcasting class, not just the Witch.
Personally, I'd like to see some sort of ritual casting tied in to the witch. In other words, extremely long-casting-time spells (or other magical abilities) that may or may not require additional characters helping in the ritual, but that have more significant effects than a spell would at a similar power level.
Another thing I'd like to see (and this could actually be connected to the first suggestion) is an emphasis on metamagic. Witches in classic faerie tales/fantasy literature almost always use very quirky spells. They rarely use anything as straight-forward as a fireball; a Witch's fireball should have all sorts of exotic effects on it. (not to say that witches should necessarily get Evocation spells at all; just an example)
You'll love the 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming Witch base class that's going to be in Paths of Power, then.
Disliked many of the classes WOTC put out because they often just felt like either a way to multiclass without actually mutliclassing (beguiler comes to mind) or just like a minor variant of a core class (samurai and knight).
Couldn't agree more. I like a different mechanic with any new class. The good ones did just that like the Warlock and Artificer.
It seems at least that Paizo agrees with the 2 of us. These new classes seem very different from the brief descriptions we have
Ok, here's my list :
1) SUBTLETY! Witches are above all subtle, they don't do flashy magic. Scrying, fortune telling, curses, luck/unluck, evil eye, all these are subtle magic. If the witch is going to be casting fireballs then don't bother.
2) FAMILIARS! No 'Witch's Bond' like with Druids and Rangers and Paladins and Wizards. In other words, a Witch should get a familiar, and not have a different option. A witch's familiar should be part of her. And... those familiars should be based on the witch's focus. Obviously a cat is always appropriate, but a snake for an evil witch, or a tarantula, or an owl for a brainy research type of witch. Also, I'd almost say a witch's familiar should be a cross between a familiar and an animal companion, as in, a witch's familiar is usually renown for having unusual abilities (shapechange, invisibility, speech). Their familiars should grow as they grow in level is what I'm getting at.
3) POTIONS! Witches are famous for brewing potions! Bonus's to brewing them, make them cheaper or faster or more potent (pick two when making or something like that). Brew Potion should be a class feature, not a feat for them, and they should get it at 1st level (an exception, they should be better at it than other spellcasters).
4) BROOMS! The ability to use a broom to fly. I know most classes don't get flight by default, but a 10th level witch who can fly on her broom is not a big huge jump, and fits the class very well.
That's it for now, hope this helped.
I hope there's room for a variety of witch archetypes. Some witches may be great at cursing others, some use ritual magic, and so on. Compare Baba Yaga to the Good Witch Glinda for an idea.
I don't see witches as being good at blasting people, but perhaps there are archetypes I haven't seen before.
I hope there's room for a variety of witch archetypes. Some witches may be great at cursing others, some use ritual magic, and so on. Compare Baba Yaga to the Good Witch Glinda for an idea.
I don't see witches as being good at blasting people, but perhaps there are archetypes I haven't seen before.
The Wicked Queen Witch in Sleeping Beauty that polymorphed into a dragon. That's polymorph though, which you can put down as #5 on my list, witches should have access to polymorph spells.
As Lyingbastard said above, I think many of you are really going to like the Witch class that will be in our next release, Paths of Power. She will have a lot of the spells, powers and features that many of you are looking for in a witch class.
We were influenced by classic witch mythology, fictional witches, such as the Disney witches and characters from Harry Potter and other novels and films, as well as real-world historical information on witches and witchcraft.
I will say that polymorph spells, potion brewing, rites, circle casting, familiars and, yes, brooms, are all part of the make up of our witch. Paths of Power will be available early next month - though we may do a sneak-peek at her in the next few days.
Robert Thomson
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
I'd like to see the familier handled more like the original myth's, a demon sent to teach the witch, in the disguise of an ordinary (well, almost ordinary) animal.
I'd also like to see some mechanism for creating low cost, one shot, charms, potions, poisons,candles, etc....
Something along the lines of possibly imbuing simple homemade or natural items with lower level spells they know, but can give to someone else to trigger.
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I'd like to see the familier handled more like the original myth's, a demon sent to teach the witch, in the disguise of an ordinary (well, almost ordinary) animal.
Yes. And I wouldn't mind seeing a witch's familiar that can bust out something impressive from time to time, like the giant cat that chased Kirk around in the Halloween episode of Star Trek. :)
Nine times out of ten, 'Isis' the black cat is just a sarcastic advisor. But every now and then she grows to size Huge and hunts man-sized prey like mice.
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Here are some mechanics I would like to see for the witch.
Curse mechanic - Give a witch a power similar to bards but make them debuffers. Witches cause harm to enemies and their malevolence is the stuff of legend. Penalties to attack rolls, saves, ac are all good stuff!
Witches should relate to nature and also the supernatural. Give them druid spells that relate to animals, plants and the weather. Give them arcane spells relating to conjuration, necromancy, illussion and enchantment, plus the polymorph subschool.
Do not give them armor proficiencies! Witches have not been portrayed as warriors in most literature that I have read about. They either pass on lore learned in the past, or bargain with nature and/or supernatural entities for power. They do not fit into the earthly mode of training in weapons and armor like priestly and/or warrior orders. Either give them mage armor and barkskin or allow them to modfiy their AC through charisma or wisdom similar to monk training. Think of it as a sixth sense imparted by their heightened senses or mystical aid.
As mentioned in the above paragraph, witches should have the most restrictive weapon selection on par with wizards. Witches rely on their powers and pacts for protection and should only have the most basic of weapons. Agricultural weapons such as the flail, scythe and sickle would make sense as exceptions to the rule.
Familiars- Witches should definitly have a familiar and may even be granted the improved familiar feat as a bonus ability at higher levels.
Witches should have some damage spells but they should be damage over time such as the creeping cold spell from 3.5. Witches are not the flashy casters that wizards & sorcerers are but they have the ability to harm people over time and cause death or injury to people they dislike by curse ill luck or "accidents" to befall them.
maybe a witch like this
http://dragonage.bioware.com/characters/morrigan
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Will the witch be restricted to female characters only? While I am all for a gender neutral game, I sort of feel like the witch niche (?) is best served by a class only for females. Maybe that's just me though.
I also think witches should get some sort of defensive ability based on medieval witch trials. Give them fire immunity so they can survive being burned at the stake, or water breathing/freedom of movement so they don't die when thrown in water.
Maybe a 20th level apotheosis where the Witch changes into a Hag (monstrous humanoid)?
Mechanically, maybe she can have curse-like powers to debuff opponents in combat (like the anti-bard mentioned above). For utility stuff, maybe a skill-based magic system based on rituals (that others can use the Aid Another action to help cast). Some of the effects of her rituals would also make her useful in combat (such as transforming into a giant purple dragon with green fiery eyes and breath!).
I can see them specializing in Enchantments, Illusions, and Transmutations, with access to Abjurations, Divinations, and Necromancy, and possibly Conjuration (summoning & calling, and maybe creation and possibly even healing). Probably not Evocations.
Potion and/or Token (single use magic items) creation would certainly fit the archetype as well. Maybe with the ability to create higher level potions (9th level potions at 20th level???).
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Well this are my thoughts.
1. Acces to most arcane spells from the necromancy, illusion and polymorph subschool.
2. Ability to replicate other spell effects through the creation of potions or long rituals (a limited amount of times per day or week, not depending on normal spellcasting) That would allow even maybe for ritual divine casting and vancian arcane casting or the other way around. Good way for itto have both without unique spell list or mystic theurge shannanigans.
3. FAMILIAR. Not boosts to it necesarily but a higher dpeendancy on it.
4. A minor hex or curse ability mostly for flavor and to fill dead level space. Something that would give penalties and last one round at least on a succesful save (unlike the poor poor hexblade)
5. Different varieties of witch archetypes. It could be by the familiar they choose of hatever which conclave they belong to.
The Wicked Queen Witch in Sleeping Beauty that polymorphed into a dragon. That's polymorph though, which you can put down as #5 on my list, witches should have access to polymorph spells.I hope there's room for a variety of witch archetypes. Some witches may be great at cursing others, some use ritual magic, and so on. Compare Baba Yaga to the Good Witch Glinda for an idea.
I don't see witches as being good at blasting people, but perhaps there are archetypes I haven't seen before.
MDT, I thought you wanted subtle. What is so subtle about turning into a particularly large dragon (and in the disney movie a green-eyed, purple-skinned, green fire spewing one at that.)? ;)
-Weylin
I do want subtle, and never said it was. :) Just was pointing out there was at least one over the top blasting witch in popular mythos. ;)
I haven't read any of the teaser material on this class - so if someone could direct me to it, I'd be grateful. So my comments here are made in ignorance of the released information and therefore may not be pertinent... for the Witch, I'd make only two heartfelt recommendations:
1. Do NOT restrict the Witch's alignment to Evil-only.
2. Do NOT restrict the Witch's gender to Female.
If the witch heals it should be via powers akin to Infernal Healing rather than cure light wounds type spells.
Witches should have proficiency with poison and be able to brew potions at a fairly low level. Perhaps they can brew short duration potions that last 1 day which don't cost anything but they should also be able to brew normal potions as well.
The class should be loaded with divination magic. Probably better diviners than either wizards or clerics.
They should be able to blend in with those around them, disguise should definitely be a class skill, and perhaps the ability to cast spells without being detected. At higher levels there should be some form of disguise self ability.
As mentioned by several people hexes or curses should be a big part of the offensive capabilities of the class. These should avoid the simple direct damage and target abilities or perhaps give unluck effects.
This is probably unpopular but...
I would love to see some elements of voodoo introduced to the class as well. Zombies and voodoo dolls.
Some more things generally associated with witches:
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Ok, here's my list :
1) SUBTLETY! Witches are above all subtle, they don't do flashy magic. Scrying, fortune telling, curses, luck/unluck, evil eye, all these are subtle magic. If the witch is going to be casting fireballs then don't bother.
2) FAMILIARS! No 'Witch's Bond' like with Druids and Rangers and Paladins and Wizards. In other words, a Witch should get a familiar, and not have a different option. A witch's familiar should be part of her. And... those familiars should be based on the witch's focus. Obviously a cat is always appropriate, but a snake for an evil witch, or a tarantula, or an owl for a brainy research type of witch. Also, I'd almost say a witch's familiar should be a cross between a familiar and an animal companion, as in, a witch's familiar is usually renown for having unusual abilities (shapechange, invisibility, speech). Their familiars should grow as they grow in level is what I'm getting at.
3) POTIONS! Witches are famous for brewing potions!
1.) I really hate this idea because it takes away from other classes that should just as easily have that as their schtick. Curses are a very cleric thing, the evil eye a very sorcerer thing, etc. . .
Also, I can think of a lot of concepts that that lists discribes perfectly that are distinctly not "witch". Voodoo priest, Gypsy elder, Divine oracle. I see no need for a witch, but if it is to be, don't cheapen it by stealing from other concepts.2.) I like your idea for Familiars.
3.) Kind of like with #1. It sort of cheapnes it for me if the witch is better at brewing than the voodoo cleric or mad wizard scientist. On the other hand, I could see a 1/week ability or something that could alter potions, maybe allowing for potions with metamagic type effects without the feat, but at the cost of them only lasting 1 or 2 days (the potion becomes foul water) and taking a lot longer to brew.
All in all, I just really don't see a need for a "witch" class. Adept works for NPC's, and Cleric and Sorcerer (maybe even Druid) fill the roll too well already. I'd much rather see alternate class features for those classes.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Will the witch be restricted to female characters only? While I am all for a gender neutral game, I sort of feel like the witch niche (?) is best served by a class only for females. Maybe that's just me though.
There will not be a gender requirement for the class. We will likely mention that male witches are sometimes called warlocks, but that's about it.
The iconic witch is female.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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1. Do NOT restrict the Witch's alignment to Evil-only.
2. Do NOT restrict the Witch's gender to Female.
Ok.
We want the "white witch" (i.e. good-aligned witch) to be a viable character concept with this class, so there are no alignment restrictions on it at present.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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As I see it (and having read the alpha draft of the class), I don't think we're going in a very "voodoo" direction. I suspect you could do a whole class around that without too much difficulty. Our witch is based a lot more on the mythology of the witch craze, old Disney movies, a touch of Narnia, a bit of Oz, etc.
that begs the question, when do we get to see it?
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1. Do NOT restrict the Witch's alignment to Evil-only.
2. Do NOT restrict the Witch's gender to Female.
Ok.
We want the "white witch" (i.e. good-aligned witch) to be a viable character concept with this class, so there are no alignment restrictions on it at present.
Oh, good. [Begins to get hopes up at playing a witch.]
This is perhaps an impractical, small consideration, but I would be really interested in mechanics for magical plants, which fit in with my image of a witch--herbal remedies, poisonous apples, etc. Beyond a ranger/druid's ability to commune with nature, I think a witch should be able to grow and use plants infused with magical energy, which a druid or ranger might be uncomfortable with. I know there are plenty of problems with this idea (where, exactly, does an adventurer grow his or her plants?), but it interests me.
1.) I really hate this idea because it takes away from other classes that should just as easily have that as their schtick. Curses are a very cleric thing, the evil eye a very sorcerer thing, etc. . .
Also, I can think of a lot of concepts that that lists discribes perfectly that are distinctly not "witch". Voodoo priest, Gypsy elder, Divine oracle. I see no need for a witch, but if it is to be, don't cheapen it by stealing from other concepts.
Not sure why you think it would cheapen it or be stealing. I do agree that Gypsy elder would be a really good example, but a good example of a witch. I don't think (hope) the class is meant to be only Glenda the Good Witch or Wanda the Wicked Witch. I hope it's flexible enough to represent everything from Glenda to Wanda to Madame Ogilvy the Gypsy Priestess. I do think (and Erik backed it up above) that Voodoo could easily be a separate class (or a PrC for witches! That would rock!).
2.) I like your idea for Familiars.
Thanks, I hope they use it.
3.) Kind of like with #1. It sort of cheapnes it for me if the witch is better at brewing than the voodoo cleric or mad wizard scientist. On the other hand, I could see a 1/week ability or something that could alter potions, maybe allowing for potions with metamagic type effects without the feat, but at the cost of them only lasting 1 or 2 days (the potion becomes foul water) and taking a lot longer to brew.
I could deal with that. What I was more thinking of, but didn't go into enough detail, was that I would like them to have brewing class features that let them make different potions. Love potions (charm person) or Cats Eye potions (granting low-light vision to the drinker) or such as that. On the other hand, it seems like the Mad Alchemist class is going to get that. :(
All in all, I just really don't see a need for a "witch" class. Adept works for NPC's, and Cleric and Sorcerer...
There's a difference between 'Do we need this' and 'Does it work, is it balanced, will people enjoy it, and can we do it without stepping on toes'.
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Creative Director
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As I see it (and having read the alpha draft of the class), I don't think we're going in a very "voodoo" direction. I suspect you could do a whole class around that without too much difficulty. Our witch is based a lot more on the mythology of the witch craze, old Disney movies, a touch of Narnia, a bit of Oz, etc.
That said... I think that setting up the witch to be the go-to class if you DO want to do a voodoo type character might be cool. The oracle might work for this too, though.
Just as there are multiple flavors for clerics or wizards or sorcerers (and ALL of the core classes, really), we won't be limiting the witch (or any of the new base classes) to one flavor.
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I'd also like to see some mechanism for creating low cost, one shot, charms, potions, poisons,candles, etc....
Something along the lines of possibly imbuing simple homemade or natural items with lower level spells they know, but can give to someone else to trigger.
Have to agree with what a lot of others said Zurai, MDT, Talek & Luna, SmiloDan, and of course the above quoted.
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Familiars, enhanced potion making (higher than level 3 spells, Brew Potion as a bonus feat, useable at 1st level), subtle spells focusing on charms, curses/debuffs, divinations, pacts/summoning/calling outsiders, poison use...
and circle magic. Something rules-crunchy to justify "covens". That and maybe have a look at the excellent Hag templates from the Scarred Lands setting for NPCs or witches seduced by power.
Familiars are a huge part of the witch trope and they should be the default but there needs to be an opt out. It can be a less powerful option but ultimately there should be a non-familiar option for witches.
That said... I would kind of like to see animated objects available as witch familiars. The animated kettle, the broom, a small rope golem, or a homunculous.
Familiars, enhanced potion making (higher than level 3 spells, Brew Potion as a bonus feat, useable at 1st level), subtle spells focusing on charms, curses/debuffs, divinations, pacts/summoning/calling outsiders, poison use...and circle magic. Something rules-crunchy to justify "covens". That and maybe have a look at the excellent Hag templates from the Scarred Lands setting for NPCs or witches seduced by power.
I must say I love the idea of witches being able to brew higher level potions, maybe a mechanic where they can starting at level 3 brew potions of any first level spell of any class, and it increases by one spell level for every 2 levels beyond 3, at 21st level they could brew 10th level spells and would continue into epic.
I haven't read any of the teaser material on this class - so if someone could direct me to it, I'd be grateful. So my comments here are made in ignorance of the released information and therefore may not be pertinent... for the Witch, I'd make only two heartfelt recommendations:
1. Do NOT restrict the Witch's alignment to Evil-only.
2. Do NOT restrict the Witch's gender to Female.
We haven't.
As I see it (and having read the alpha draft of the class), I don't think we're going in a very "voodoo" direction. I suspect you could do a whole class around that without too much difficulty. Our witch is based a lot more on the mythology of the witch craze, old Disney movies, a touch of Narnia, a bit of Oz, etc.
That said... I think that setting up the witch to be the go-to class if you DO want to do a voodoo type character might be cool. The oracle might work for this too, though.
Just as there are multiple flavors for clerics or wizards or sorcerers (and ALL of the core classes, really), we won't be limiting the witch (or any of the new base classes) to one flavor.
I don't think it should be particularly voodoo flavored, but the witch concept comes closer to the voodoo witch doctor than any of the existing classes and it would be nice if there were some options to bring it a little bit closer. Consider it a low priority request ;)
Yeah, I love the classical witch, both hope that it comes out supporting a variety of witchy flavors, as Jacobs said.
Yeah, I love the classical witch, both hope that it comes out supporting a variety of witchy flavors, as Jacobs said.
The 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming Witch will have 4 different paths to follow with very significant differences in both flavor and game abilities.
I must say I love the idea of witches being able to brew higher level potions, maybe a mechanic where they can starting at level 3 brew potions of any first level spell of any class, and it increases by one spell level for every 2 levels beyond 3, at 21st level they could brew 10th level spells and would continue into epic.
Familiars, enhanced potion making (higher than level 3 spells, Brew Potion as a bonus feat, useable at 1st level), subtle spells focusing on charms, curses/debuffs, divinations, pacts/summoning/calling outsiders, poison use...and circle magic. Something rules-crunchy to justify "covens". That and maybe have a look at the excellent Hag templates from the Scarred Lands setting for NPCs or witches seduced by power.
I like the concept, need to limit the spells. A potion of Hero's Feast makes sense, a potion of Fireball or Miracle doesn't. :) Maybe limit it to only spells that have a target of self only, or only spells with the saving throw as Harmless.
I like the concept, need to limit the spells. A potion of Hero's Feast makes sense, a potion of Fireball or Miracle doesn't. :) Maybe limit it to only spells that have a target of self only, or only spells with the saving throw as Harmless.I must say I love the idea of witches being able to brew higher level potions, maybe a mechanic where they can starting at level 3 brew potions of any first level spell of any class, and it increases by one spell level for every 2 levels beyond 3, at 21st level they could brew 10th level spells and would continue into epic.
Familiars, enhanced potion making (higher than level 3 spells, Brew Potion as a bonus feat, useable at 1st level), subtle spells focusing on charms, curses/debuffs, divinations, pacts/summoning/calling outsiders, poison use...and circle magic. Something rules-crunchy to justify "covens". That and maybe have a look at the excellent Hag templates from the Scarred Lands setting for NPCs or witches seduced by power.
Any wizard can make a potion of fireball already :)