There seems to be no "Against the Slavers" or "Rescue the Slaves" adventures for 3rd edition, with the exception of a rather obscure Elric d20 module. Can anyone think of any? And, if not, can anyone think of any reason why Paizo WOULDN'T do something like this as a module or even an entire adventure path?
A "Slave Lords Rebooted" AP would be TOTALLY awesome. We had more fun with A1-A4 than almost any other 1e modules, back in the day.
There seems to be no "Against the Slavers" or "Rescue the Slaves" adventures for 3rd edition, with the exception of a rather obscure Elric d20 module. Can anyone think of any? And, if not, can anyone think of any reason why Paizo WOULDN'T do something like this as a module or even an entire adventure path?
In many 3e products, slavery is a buzzword for evil.
Now, I believe in basic human freedoms, and I think slavery is reprehensible. But I do think that "slavery == evil" runs counter to the attitudes throughout much of human history toward slavery. When it gets a little too preachy (e.g. only the drow could be evil enough to hold slaves) it runs counter to the traditions of fantasy literature.
Paizo appears to have adopted a quasi-historical attitude where slavery itself is not evil in a social context that accepts it, but other things (such as how slaves are treated) can be evil. I think this is much closer to the treatment the issue receives in fantasy literature. It should still be a terrible thing, but it should be pervasive enough to feel real, otherwise it becomes a parody of actual hardship.
So yes, I'd like to see such a module, with a healthy dose of Paizoan grit. Could there be a better place than Katapesh?
In many 3e products, slavery is a buzzword for evil.
Now, I believe in basic human freedoms, and I think slavery is reprehensible. But I do think that "slavery == evil" runs counter to the attitudes throughout much of human history toward slavery. When it gets a little too preachy (e.g. only the drow could be evil enough to hold slaves) it runs counter to the traditions of fantasy literature, not to mention idealistic.
Paizo appears to have adopted a quasi-historical attitude where slavery itself is not evil in a social context that accepts it, but other things (such as how slaves are treated) can be evil. I think this is much closer to the treatment the issue receives in fantasy literature. It should still be a terrible thing, but it should be pervasive enough to feel real, otherwise it becomes a parody of actual hardship.
So yeah, I'd like to see such a module, with a healthy does for Paizoan grit. Could there be a better place than Katapesh?
Seriously, am I the only one that found it ironic that Evil Lincoln has posted this? ;)
Heh, woops.
That was not intentional.
Just so no one is seriously offended, Evil Lincoln is from the holoshed malfunction on Futurama!
Slave lords!
The Lost City!
Yeah, an AP dealing with slavers is a great idea.
Hmmm.
Use Aboleths?
In many 3e products, slavery is a buzzword for evil.
Now, I believe in basic human freedoms, and I think slavery is reprehensible. But I do think that "slavery == evil" runs counter to the attitudes throughout much of human history toward slavery. When it gets a little too preachy (e.g. only the drow could be evil enough to hold slaves) it runs counter to the traditions of fantasy literature.
Paizo appears to have adopted a quasi-historical attitude where slavery itself is not evil in a social context that accepts it, but other things (such as how slaves are treated) can be evil. I think this is much closer to the treatment the issue receives in fantasy literature. It should still be a terrible thing, but it should be pervasive enough to feel real, otherwise it becomes a parody of actual hardship.
So yes, I'd like to see such a module, with a healthy dose of Paizoan grit. Could there be a better place than Katapesh?
Well said, sir, and I agree.
Though a devilish part of me wonders about trying something that apparently happened to some 19th century European travelers and explorers -- they find someone about to brutally beat, or even kill, a child/young woman. When they intervened, they were told that "Oh, no, they're just beating a slave. It's quite legal to kill them."
The travelers on several occasions would then buy the slave for themselves (in some places, freeing a slave with no ability to support themselves was very illegal), ultimately freeing them a few stops later when they were far away from their former owner.
I just wondered about using that as a way to introduce a new cohort or follower, or even just a local guide with some built-in hooks for future stories.
Well said, sir, and I agree.
Though a devilish part of me wonders about trying something that apparently happened to some 19th century European travelers and explorers -- they find someone about to brutally beat, or even kill, a child/young woman. When they intervened, they were told that "Oh, no, they're just beating a slave. It's quite legal to kill them."
The travelers on several occasions would then buy the slave for themselves (in some places, freeing a slave with no ability to support themselves was very illegal), ultimately freeing them a few stops later when they were far away from their former owner.
I just wondered about using that as a way to introduce a new cohort or follower, or even just a local guide with some built-in hooks for future stories.
Or as a con. The PC's buy the "slave", give them food, water, maybe some equipment and after a few nights they run off, perhaps leaving a note behind saying that while grateful, she can't believe the PC's will actually free her. Imagine their surprise when a couple of towns later they see the same people about to beat the same "slave"...
Demons receive a ton of face time as the BBEG. But for slavery, I say the orderly nature of the Nine Hells is better suited.
Or how about Yugoloths? They, too, get short shrift. As the mercenaries of the Lower Planes, they could definitely do with slave fodder.
Rakshasas, aboleths (mentioned), illithids, are staple choices. But I think a twist should be put on the slavers. For instance:
Elves, tired of Humans clear-cutting their forests, enslave humans until they are civilized. Those humans that rebel are obviously too barbaric to ever be cultured and are thus "culled from the herd." Nothing evil there, its all for the good of the Truffula Trees, which everyone, everyone, EVERYONE needs!
Dwarves, not reproducing fast enough to keep up with production demands, take slaves to mine their mountains to fill the orders. Nothing evil, just good business. And if they die? Well, you break pick-axes too, you don't whine about it, you just requisition a new one. And humans breed like rabbits anyway.
Nothing evil, just good business. And if they die? Well, you break pick-axes too, you don't whine about it, you just requisition a new one. And humans breed like rabbits anyway.
I think that the callous disregard for life by treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment and not caring because there are a lot of them qualifies a person as evil. For me, anyway.
While there's already the Slave Pits of Absalom PFS scenario (which was the start point of what became our swashbuckling, freedom-fighting campaing), if an AP was ever to revolve around slavers, it would indeed have to involve either aboleths or fiends, something the heroes can really take up arms against, that can escalate with level as the heroes do, and that can give heroes the satisfaction of getting the responsible killed.
While Absalom and Cheliax are goals a lot closer to home for aspiring freedom-fighters, heroes trying to oppose such a large-scale, money-making industry will quickly find why Greenpeace is so limited in the things it can actually accomplish. Fight a country's economy and you'll quickly find yourself a wanted criminal. What will you do? Kill Lord Gyr? Overthrow house Thrune and their legion of fiends? Destroy Cheliax? Burn the Kelesh empire down to the ground? While I know your typical Knights of the Dinner Table reject will say something along the lines of "the players can blah blah blah APs were made so PCs become the kings of the hill blah blah blah puny NPCs can do nothing blah blah blah magic is broken blah blah blah don't give me E6 crap blah blah blah" well, personally I don't think a campaign like that would want players like -that-... problem is, B.A's table represents a considerable portion of the market, so you can't ignore them, and so you have to handle such threat in considerably more black/white terms (yeah I know there's CotCT for "grey-area campaign", but a publisher can only afford to release so many products strictly addressed to minorities).
And indeed, while the powers-that-be in Absalom let the occasional slave-break attempts slide, Lord Gyr personally crushes those who use magic to break the law, so our merry band of freedom fighters stick for nailing slavers who break the law, particularly those who get their stock from kidnapping. While they do their part, they certainly won't be the ones to destroy slavery in Absalom.
I think that the callous disregard for life by treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment and not caring because there are a lot of them qualifies a person as evil. For me, anyway.
There you go, anthropomorphizing a human value system to non-humans again; dwarves, in this case.
I mean, they're demi-humans, really, so you can't expect them to have true ethics anyway.So, slaving dwarves aren't evil, just a lesser species being morally inferior due to their nature.
What can you expect?
And, btw, they weren't treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment.
Dying slaves are still alive and, therefore, can still work.
Dying slaves would be bolstered (read: beaten) and encouraged (read: whipped) to keep working.
Its dead slaves that would be treated in the same manner as broken equipment.
And even then, the dead still serve a valuable purpose.
I think that the callous disregard for life by treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment and not caring because there are a lot of them qualifies a person as evil. For me, anyway.There you go, anthropomorphizing a human value system to non-humans again; dwarves, in this case.
I mean, they're demi-humans, really, so you can't expect them to have true ethics anyway.
So, slaving dwarves aren't evil, just a lesser species being morally inferior due to their nature.
What can you expect?And, btw, they weren't treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment.
Dying slaves are still alive and, therefore, can still work.
Dying slaves would be bolstered (read: beaten) and encouraged (read: whipped) to keep working.Its dead slaves that would be treated in the same manner as broken equipment.
And even then, the dead still serve a valuable purpose.** spoiler omitted **
Intresting post. I read something very similar in the "dragonbane" series of novels by Mercedes Lackey. I saw the elves in a diffrent light because they were so convinced their long lives made them supperior to the short lived humans. The dragons remained hidden from all other races. The female dragon finds a half elf infant beside the human mother that was going to leave her to die in the desert and decides to raise the child as a pet for her son, teach him some responsability you know. If you like elves presented in a non tree hugging sweetness and light manner I recommend the series.
Did someone call my name?
Coughs up half-chewed link onto the keyboard.
With the Gladiator class that will be included in Paths of Power, that's a PC class that starts off as a slave, or at least indentured. Gladiators are the property of the owner of their school/stable until they are freed or pay off debt enough to earn their freedom. That leads to all kinds of adventure hooks for a new PC. Is he a runaway who might be pursued/returned to his owner if caught? Is he going to stay in the arena until his freedom is bought? Did he attract a wealthy patron to buy him away from the gladiator stable? Did the rest of the party pool together and buy his freedom (and thus leading to even more 'spirited debate' over treasure distribution)?
In some nations, I would think that slavery is going to be a common accepted part of society. This wouldn't necessarily be based on race or ethnicity, but rather on social class. Prisoners or debtors getting sold into slavery / used as slave labor on public works projects. Harems staffed by pampered but still owned courtesans as well as guards (perhaps even eunuchs). Perhaps this is part of an exotic culture and may be the cause of tensions between other nations or religions - a Goddess who values freedom and adventure would hate slavery, for example; a God who favors orderly structured society might think that having a place and purpose for the lower rungs of society instead of letting them fall into chaos, poverty, and degradation might find it to be tolerable, perhaps even commendable.
Does any of that make it right? I would say no, but it has been a part of many cultures throughout history, really until the last few centuries (and even today, the state factories in N. Korea and China might be considered a form of slavery, as well as the "Natashas", Eastern European women trafficked to Western Europe and abroad in the sex trade with no choice in the matter.) I think there is definitely a place for it in a campaign, if only to show why certain cultures dislike each other.
I think that the callous disregard for life by treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment and not caring because there are a lot of them qualifies a person as evil. For me, anyway.There you go, anthropomorphizing a human value system to non-humans again; dwarves, in this case.
I mean, they're demi-humans, really, so you can't expect them to have true ethics anyway.
So, slaving dwarves aren't evil, just a lesser species being morally inferior due to their nature.
What can you expect?And, btw, they weren't treating dying people in the same manner as broken equipment.
Dying slaves are still alive and, therefore, can still work.
Dying slaves would be bolstered (read: beaten) and encouraged (read: whipped) to keep working.Its dead slaves that would be treated in the same manner as broken equipment.
And even then, the dead still serve a valuable purpose.** spoiler omitted **
hehe nice
Dwarven sausage is tough and stringy...yuck. Now halfling sausage on the other hand is scrumptious.
I agree "free the slaves" is a fun adventure path.
As for "Slavery" does not equal "Evil" based on social norms of the time and place, I would point out that modern moral views are often used in fantasy literature, and in roleplaying games. Example: See all those female heroes?
Sacrificing babies is another traditional, time-honored practice that is much poo-pooed upon by moralistic imperialists of our day and age...
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Here's one! I can't believe no one mentioned it yet. This series and Zelazny's Amber are my favorite of favorites when it comes to modern fantasy.
As for "Slavery" does not equal "Evil" based on social norms of the time and place, I would point out that modern moral views are often used in fantasy literature, and in roleplaying games.
Many roleplaying games, to include D&D, assume that certain modern ethical and moral values are universal absolutes and not dependent on social mores. Chaos, Evil, Good, and Law are defined aspects of existence with tangible effects (the outer planes and outsiders, aligned spells and items, etc.) and not just philosophical concepts.
Within that context, many forms of slavery would considered Evil, even if the society that practices it doesn't think of it as "evil." Other forms of slavery might not be considered Evil in the D&D alignment system, although they are not Good (it's still imposing against free will): For example (IMO), bond slavery imposed for specified periods as a sentence for property crimes (like prison labor today), if the bond slaves are protected from abuse (i.e., sentencing is fair and not excessive, they work for the state and cannot be bought/sold, they have still have legal rights/status apart from their imposed service, etc.).
Its dead slaves that would be treated in the same manner as broken equipment. And even then, the dead still serve a valuable purpose.
** spoiler omitted **
It's more cost-effective to have a cleric cast animate dead and put them back to work!
Coughs up half-chewed link onto the keyboard.
Snorts ice cream through his nose while struck by laughter
MMM... mint chocolate chip.
It's more cost-effective to have a cleric cast animate dead and put them back to work!Its dead slaves that would be treated in the same manner as broken equipment. And even then, the dead still serve a valuable purpose.
** spoiler omitted **
Depends where your local constabularies draw the line... some might be perfectly fine with slaves but not exactly be fond of having zombies shuffling about. Fines are expensive. And if you think slaves are going to attract meddling adventurers undead are doubly so.
Are they really undead if they're working underground?
I mean, its like they're buried anyway.
But the undead weakens the strength of dwarven warriors. Swinging that axe over and over into orc/goblin/kobold heads is tiring work. They get a workout whipping and beating slaves. This keeps up the dwarves' strength. Use undead and there's no need for "formal reprimands."
Did someone call my name?
Yeah, OP says you cannot be in 3E, so get a move on to 4E. =P
Did someone call my name?Yeah, OP says you cannot be in 3E, so get a move on to 4E. =P
No thanks!
Sacrificing babies is another traditional, time-honored practice that is much poo-pooed upon by moralistic imperialists of our day and age...
Dont tell that to my CG cleric of Mystra. He happily slaughtered a two rooms full of infant Pharum( FR specific monsters,very evil)after killing their parents/guards. The DM was fine with it but the other players were expecting me to lose my powers and be stripped of my cleric abilities. When a race is wholly evil by nature with NO redeming qualities then kill them young before thye kill you. Prime example the neogi.
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I once had a LE halfling wizard who wanted to sell a room full of goblin babies into "public service" to the local lord so that they could "learn responsible citizenship". The lord was horrified by my halfling's implication that I'd sell the goblins into slavery.
My character shrugged: "When the goblins eat all the other children at the orphanage don't come crying to me."
That was a fun game.
Sacrificing babies is another traditional, time-honored practice that is much poo-pooed upon by moralistic imperialists of our day and age...Dont tell that to my CG cleric of Mystra. He happily slaughtered a two rooms full of infant Pharum( FR specific monsters,very evil)after killing their parents/guards. The DM was fine with it but the other players were expecting me to lose my powers and be stripped of my cleric abilities. When a race is wholly evil by nature with NO redeming qualities then kill them young before thye kill you. Prime example the neogi.
I don't think that qualifies as sacrificing.
Sacrificing babies is another traditional, time-honored practice that is much poo-pooed upon by moralistic imperialists of our day and age...Dont tell that to my CG cleric of Mystra. He happily slaughtered a two rooms full of infant Pharum( FR specific monsters,very evil)after killing their parents/guards. The DM was fine with it but the other players were expecting me to lose my powers and be stripped of my cleric abilities. When a race is wholly evil by nature with NO redeming qualities then kill them young before thye kill you. Prime example the neogi.
I don't think your cleric would get in trouble for that, but a druid might, depending on whether or not these Pharum are part of the natural world/order.
Nope, Phaerimm came in from another dimension if I remember correctly.
Nope, Phaerimm came in from another dimension if I remember correctly.
Hmm...that takes things in a different direction.
A game I played in once had a LOT of plane-hopping and one of the PCs was a druid, but a funky "protect the higher order" druid. It wasn't the best put together campaign, but there were a lot of wonderful philosophical discussions we got into after each session revolving around the druid's point of view regarding the multiverse and the planes.
I still think a druid- even a terrestrial one- would stop at complete eradication. Perhaps leaving a mated pair behind to mate and continue their lives at the most.
Yeah, they're pretty nasty, don't know the exact CR though. Killing them off is not exactly a walk in the park.
Good idea for a module.
Thanks. It was great in the old days and an homage would be a smash hit... especially since there've been so few to even touch on the trope.