Wild Shape and multiple attacks

[glenstryder]

I am currently looking at the bestiary to see in what I could shift with my druid.

I can see that there are some fun dinosaurus to change in , but these only have one attack.

Can I use My BAB to perform multiple attacks?
If not, what is the point in shifting into such creature when I can shift into a tiger? (I am quite sure that the Pathfinder designers are found of tigers!)

[James Jacobs]

glenstryder wrote:

I am currently looking at the bestiary to see in what I could shift with my druid.

I can see that there are some fun dinosaurus to change in , but these only have one attack.

Can I use My BAB to perform multiple attacks?
If not, what is the point in shifting into such creature when I can shift into a tiger? (I am quite sure that the Pathfinder designers are found of tigers!)

You can only gain additional attacks from your BAB with wielded weapons. The advantage animals have is not that they can make multiple bite attacks, but that their single bite attack does a LOT more damage than a single sword does. And in the case of a tiger, you'll get a bite and two claw attacks anyway.

[James Risner]

glenstryder wrote:

Can I use My BAB to perform multiple attacks?

Iterative attacks = Manufactured Weapons

They are not used for Natural Weapons

[Quandary]

+Unarmed Strike is in the same boat as Manufactured Weapons...?

[James Jacobs]

Quandary wrote:

+Unarmed Strike is in the same boat as Manufactured Weapons...?

Unarmed strike is indeed in the same category as manufactured weapons. Mostly for game balance reasons. But also because monks use their unarmed strikes effectively due to extensive training, not due to any intrinsic natural danger in their feet or fists.

[Takamonk]

When animal companions get multi-attack, they get a second attack at -5 if they do not have more than one attack.

I wonder why this isn't the same of all animals in general (and thus druids)?

[Takamonk]

Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) will give you an additional attack per round, although it is expensive.

[James Jacobs]

Takamonk wrote:

When animal companions get multi-attack, they get a second attack at -5 if they do not have more than one attack.

I wonder why this isn't the same of all animals in general (and thus druids)?

It's a special exception for animal companions; a perk of being an animal companion. They get this mostly because it helps animals remain relevant at higher levels, because animals start to feel a little wimpy otherwise. You'll note the relative scarcity of animals that are higher than CR 10 in the book... they need SOMETHING to keep them viable at higher levels for animal companions.

[Sean FitzSimon]

James Jacobs wrote:

Takamonk wrote:

When animal companions get multi-attack, they get a second attack at -5 if they do not have more than one attack.

I wonder why this isn't the same of all animals in general (and thus druids)?

It's a special exception for animal companions; a perk of being an animal companion. They get this mostly because it helps animals remain relevant at higher levels, because animals start to feel a little wimpy otherwise. You'll note the relative scarcity of animals that are higher than CR 10 in the book... they need SOMETHING to keep them viable at higher levels for animal companions.

Especially since high level animal companions only have 16HD.

EDIT: Had my HD wrong.

[glenstryder]

James Jacobs wrote:

Takamonk wrote:

When animal companions get multi-attack, they get a second attack at -5 if they do not have more than one attack.

I wonder why this isn't the same of all animals in general (and thus druids)?

It's a special exception for animal companions; a perk of being an animal companion. They get this mostly because it helps animals remain relevant at higher levels, because animals start to feel a little wimpy otherwise. You'll note the relative scarcity of animals that are higher than CR 10 in the book... they need SOMETHING to keep them viable at higher levels for animal companions.

Hello My question is more about shifting than animal companions.

In fact, due to the new rules (that I do understand in part), there is no reason to shift into a huge dinosaurus when you can just shift into a tiger/Lion/cheatah, cat thing that has 3 attacks (even 5 with pounce).

I find that a pitty.I think it's because from all the specific stuff of the animal (armor, attacks, dexterity emphasys) you only get the attacks, hence the best thing to do in term of combat is to shift into the thing that has the highest number of attacks (which is even stronger now that 3 attacks can be all primary attacks)

I understand that, it's just sad that this shape is available as soon as level 6-8 ^^ and that nothing after is really better to fight (the elementals are an alternate choice if you prefer to tank/use special attacks than to inflict damages) and that no med/high level spell exists to enhance that shape (which is IMO the real frustrating thing).

[Gamender]

Well, if it's multiple attacks, nothing beats the pounce forms. Actually, those huge dinosaurs with only one attack could benefit from vital strike feats and a greater magic fang spell. Though that's purely speculation on my part.

Side question though. Can druids take Monster Feats? By that I mean, feats whose prerequisites you can fulfill while wildshaped. Ie. Improved natural attack, snatch and ability focus feats, specifically.

[Mark Moreland]

glenstryder wrote:

Hello My question is more about shifting than animal companions.

In fact, due to the new rules (that I do understand in part), there is no reason to shift into a huge dinosaurus when you can just shift into a tiger/Lion/cheatah, cat thing that has 3 attacks (even 5 with pounce).

A single attack by a huge creature focusing on that one attack is liable to do as much damage as all the smaller attacks combined, since they are smaller damage dice and even at full BAB some of them might miss.

[Sean FitzSimon]

Gamender wrote:

Well, if it's multiple attacks, nothing beats the pounce forms. Actually, those huge dinosaurs with only one attack could benefit from vital strike feats and a greater magic fang spell. Though that's purely speculation on my part.

Side question though. Can druids take Monster Feats? By that I mean, feats whose prerequisites you can fulfill while wildshaped. Ie. Improved natural attack, snatch and ability focus feats, specifically.

According to the Beastiary, it's up to your DM. My DM, personally, is all for it, and 3.5 rulebooks even suggested it. This is PFRPG, though, which means your DM gets final say.

[glenstryder]

yoda8myhead wrote:

glenstryder wrote:

Hello My question is more about shifting than animal companions.

In fact, due to the new rules (that I do understand in part), there is no reason to shift into a huge dinosaurus when you can just shift into a tiger/Lion/cheatah, cat thing that has 3 attacks (even 5 with pounce).

A single attack by a huge creature focusing on that one attack is liable to do as much damage as all the smaller attacks combined, since they are smaller damage dice and even at full BAB some of them might miss.

Well, all the small attacks take full strength bonus. One attack is 1.5 strength bonus.

Take a 18 STR druid with bull strength shifting into a large animal.

That's 26 str, hence +8 damage per attack, +12 for one attack.

3 attacks at 2d6+8/1d8+8/1d8+8 ( average = 40), versus one at 3d6+12(average=21).

There is no match in fact, even with vital strike.

[James Risner]

glenstryder wrote:

3 attacks at 2d6+8/1d8+8/1d8+8 ( average = 40), versus one at 3d6+12(average=21).

There is no match in fact, even with vital strike.

Greater = 12d6+12 = 42 + 12 = 54 damage average

[grasshopper_ea]

James Risner wrote:

glenstryder wrote:

3 attacks at 2d6+8/1d8+8/1d8+8 ( average = 40), versus one at 3d6+12(average=21).

There is no match in fact, even with vital strike.

Greater = 12d6+12 = 42 + 12 = 54 damage average

+1

So a naked druid may do better to wildshape into a big biter and vital strike, where one with access to a nice flaming/shocking/freezing amulet should go for lots of attacks.

Makes sense really, it's the same for one big weapon vs TWF with lots of goodies for additional damage.

[glenstryder]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

James Risner wrote:

glenstryder wrote:

3 attacks at 2d6+8/1d8+8/1d8+8 ( average = 40), versus one at 3d6+12(average=21).

There is no match in fact, even with vital strike.

Greater = 12d6+12 = 42 + 12 = 54 damage average

+1

So a naked druid may do better to wildshape into a big biter and vital strike, where one with access to a nice flaming/shocking/freezing amulet should go for lots of attacks.

Makes sense really, it's the same for one big weapon vs TWF with lots of goodies for additional damage.

Greater is 3 feats! and only available at epic level for the druid (bab+16) ^^

Hence there is no match, whathever equipment the druid has.

[glenstryder]

In fact I think that a balanced idea would be to give the druid the same "multi attack side effect" as the animal companion. (hence having a secondary attack at -5 when the animal does not have multiple attacks)

[Gamender]

In which case you use a stegosaurus with improved vital strike for 12d6+12 plus trip damage, or you multiclass to get the 16bab. Really.

Or a triceratops with I.vital strike for a 6d10+12 gore attack(ave 45).

[glenstryder]

Gamender wrote:

In which case you use a stegosaurus with improved vital strike for 12d6+12 plus trip damage, or you multiclass to get the 16bab. Really.

Or a triceratops with I.vital strike for a 6d10+12 gore attack(ave 45).

Seriously what is the point on spending 3 feats for an average which is just slowly higher because there is no bonus damage on each attack (enhancement or power attack). As soon as you use amulet of mighty fists +3 and power attack, the tiger becomes better even compared with greater vital strike.

Plus this is only available at really high level and I talk more about levels between 12 and 18 (which are often end-campaign levels).

[Gamender]

glenstryder wrote:

Seriously what is the point on spending 3 feats for an average which is just slowly higher because there is no bonus damage on each attack (enhancement or power attack). As soon as you use amulet of mighty fists +3 and power attack, the tiger becomes better even compared with greater vital strike.

Plus this is only available at really high level and I talk more about levels between 12 and 18 (which are often end-campaign levels).

2 feats (VI and IVI) and 15th level (11BAB) to get the stuff I mention, which falls comfortably in the 12-18 range you speak of. Oh, and feel free to tack on Greater Magic Fang and power attack for the bonus damage.

[A Man In Black]

James Jacobs wrote:

You can only gain additional attacks from your BAB with wielded weapons. The advantage animals have is not that they can make multiple bite attacks, but that their single bite attack does a LOT more damage than a single sword does. And in the case of a tiger, you'll get a bite and two claw attacks anyway.

A greatsword swung by a large-sized fighter does 3d6 damage, and Enlarge Person can cheaply be made permanent. The hardest-hitting natural attack available to a druid that I could find is a stegosaurus's tail whack, and that does 4d6 damage. The advantage is minimal.

The upshot is that there is little point in turning into anything but a dire tiger after level 6, as a druid. I'm kind of vague on whether all of the attacks are supposed to be primary and not suffering from a -5 to hit, as well, since no -5 is assessed in the statblocks.

Quote:

2 feats (VI and IVI) and 15th level (11BAB) to get the stuff I mention, which falls comfortably in the 12-18 range you speak of. Oh, and feel free to tack on Greater Magic Fang and power attack for the bonus damage.

The great deal of bonus damage you will have by 15th level is not multiplied by VS, while it is multiplied by pouncing forms with actual multiple attacks.

I could make sketch characters to illustrate this if you like.

[Gamender]

A Man In Black wrote:

Quote:

2 feats (VI and IVI) and 15th level (11BAB) to get the stuff I mention, which falls comfortably in the 12-18 range you speak of. Oh, and feel free to tack on Greater Magic Fang and power attack for the bonus damage.

The great deal of bonus damage you will have by 15th level is not multiplied by VS, while it is multiplied by pouncing forms with actual multiple attacks.

I could make sketch characters to illustrate this if you like.

Yeah, I kinda get that. Given enough bonus damage, multiple attacks still win over high damage vital strikes. Still fun to try to make them viable, and your pounce forms aren't suffering so much from a 2-feat expenditure.

And if you really want multiple attacks, giant octopus has 8 secondary tentacles and 20ft reach haha.

[grasshopper_ea]

glenstryder wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

James Risner wrote:

glenstryder wrote:

3 attacks at 2d6+8/1d8+8/1d8+8 ( average = 40), versus one at 3d6+12(average=21).

There is no match in fact, even with vital strike.

Greater = 12d6+12 = 42 + 12 = 54 damage average

+1

So a naked druid may do better to wildshape into a big biter and vital strike, where one with access to a nice flaming/shocking/freezing amulet should go for lots of attacks.

Makes sense really, it's the same for one big weapon vs TWF with lots of goodies for additional damage.

Greater is 3 feats! and only available at epic level for the druid (bab+16) ^^

Hence there is no match, whathever equipment the druid has.

I can think of a couple ways to get a druid +1BAB.. some of them involve free feats. Something noone has brought up is the ADVANTAGE that wild shape maxes out early. 8 druid 12 fighter would be incredible with weapon training(close) and dire tiger pounce

[Gamender]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

I can think of a couple ways to get a druid +1BAB.. some of them involve free feats. Something noone has brought up is the ADVANTAGE that wild shape maxes out early. 8 druid 12 fighter would be incredible with weapon training(close) and dire tiger pounce

Myself, I like 12druid 8 fighter better, to get the huge elementals. You never know when you need them. Thematically, there's also 8druid/12barb (greater rage+dire tiger pounce, and I.Uncanny Dodge), while 8druid 12ranger lets you advance your animal companion, and is even more thematic. Doesn't give you much though. Mix and match all you want.

[lostpike]

At 10th level a Druid can do 55 damage average a round.

Drop a large club. Transform into a Large earth elemental and cast shillelagh on your club. Using our base 18str druid +4 bull strength +6 for elemental form and you get:

3d6+10/3d6+10/2d6+9 for an average of 57 damage at 10th level...

[grasshopper_ea]

lostpike wrote:

At 10th level a Druid can do 55 damage average a round.

Drop a large club. Transform into a Large earth elemental and cast shillelagh on your club. Using our base 18str druid +4 bull strength +6 for elemental form and you get:

3d6+10/3d6+10/2d6+9 for an average of 57 damage at 10th level...

I think you mean transform into a large earth elemental, pull a small tree out of the ground, cast shillelagh, and swing for the fences :)