The cleric channel energy allows a save to reduce damage done by it. The save is based on cleric level and cha mod. The command undead feat allows a use of channel energy to create the effect of the spell control undead. Command undead allows the undead a save based on clerics caster level and cha mod. My wifes multi class cleric has a higher caster level in cleric than levels in cleric. It seems that the save DC for both of these abilities should be the same but its not.
From Core:
Creatures that take damage from
channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage.
The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric’s level
+ the cleric’s Charisma modifier.
As a standard action, you can use one of your
uses of channel negative energy to enslave undead within 30
feet. Undead receive a Will save to negate the effect. The DC
for this Will save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your
Charisma modifier.
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It´s either a mystake or has something to do with the fact that nacromancers (wizards) get hat ability as well.
I believe you are correct. Since Necromancers get the Channel Negative Energy ability, and can take the Command Undead feat, caster level is referenced in the DC.
Since Channel Energy (as a general ability) is a Cleric class feature, the term Cleric is used to determine DC. This also applies to both positive and negative energy channeling for damage, which is strictly (to my knowledge) exclusively a Cleric's ability.
One could just as easily write the feat to reference levels of the class that granted you channel energy, or write the necromancer to say in the case of channel energy use the wizard level as the cleric level. So that the save DCs remain the same.
Actually the arguement that command undead says caster level because of the necromancer(wizard) is not working because of this from the command undead feat description:
You can control any number of undead, so long
as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level.
Something is definatly in error between these abilities.
I'd like to see something more on this also as it does change up gameplay abit. As worded I could use Caster Level boosting effects such as a bead of karma or ioun stones to boost the DC on Control undead but not on channel energy.
Fireball doesnt have a feat you can take to not hit allies in the radius(Comparing to negative channel).
Fireball is also a spell that requires defsive casting or an AAO if you want to cast it while next to an opponent, channel does not provoke.
This is all off the topic and irrelevent to whether an error was made in the save DC calculation for those abilities.
Fireball doesnt have a feat you can take to not hit allies in the radius(Comparing to negative channel).
Yes, it does.
As for Channel energy usefulness, It's quite alot of AoE healing. Consider that Mass Cure light wounds (lvl5 spell) heals for 1d8+1/level (avg of 13 at 9th level where the same level cleric could channel for 5d6 at 9th level for average of 15hp. Throw in that Phylactery of Positive Channeling for another 2d6 gets 21 avg points of healing.
Also remember while that fireball is quite nice looking, everyone still gets their save for half so Positive channeling is an extremely powerful healing ability in all clerics arsenal. Rather versatile too considering it can heal allies, harm undead, remove some conditions such as bleed and on top of all that you could still take the channeling feats from the WOTC books that allow you to use your daily allotment to cast metamagic spells (divine metamagic). Clerics got some real love between channel energy and breath of life. (Though I still wish channel energy was its old overpowered self healing and harming undead + making them flee all with the same channel.)
Back on topic though: I imagine if I'm allowed to boost the DC to command undead with things like ioun stones and the bead of karma, I ought to be able to do the same to the resist DC on my channel energy.
on top of all that you could still take the channeling feats from the WOTC books that allow you to use your daily allotment to cast metamagic spells (divine metamagic).
Not unless you also took the Turn Undead feat. All those 3.5 sources require the ability to turn undead, not the ability to channel energy.
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Not unless you also took the Turn Undead feat. All those 3.5 sources require the ability to turn undead, not the ability to channel energy.
(Deep sigh.)
Of course this has to be a house ruling. The D&D sources were written for a game system where Turn Undead, not Channel Energy, was the default Cleric ability so they could not have been written to say "Channel Energy". And those feats are not open under the OGL, so of course the Pathfinder rules cannot mention that Channel Energy is an acceptable prerequisite for Divine Feats.
Pathfinder is supposed to be compatible with D&D, but in cases like this, we have to fuse together game rules from two different sources that can't refer to one another. And each Pathfinder GM has to use his judgement.
You're free to rule as you please in your campaigns, Zurai, requiring cleric PCs to take Turn Undead before any Divine Feats. But, come on now, don't cite your own house rules as if they were gospel.
You're free to rule as you please in your campaigns, Zurai, requiring cleric PCs to take Turn Undead before any Divine Feats. But, come on now, don't cite your own house rules as if they were gospel.
First, it's a literal reading of the rules.
Second, I was responding to someone who was using an interpreted reading of the rules (ie, "house rules") as gospel.
Is what's good for the goose not also good for the gander? Why aren't you crawling up his back as well?
I have to agree with Chris. 3.5 required Turn Undead and it was an automatic ability for Clerics at 1st level and Paladins at 4th. That ability is now Channel Energy, so the requirement in 3.5 should be changed to Channel Energy.
So should all sorcerers get the ability to take Improved Familiar, then, since in 3.5 all sorcerers had familiars automatically at level 1?
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Quite possibly. See below.
There's a bit of a difference here. In many cases with 3.5, 'turn undead' was used as a prerequisite just to ensure you were a Cleric, or at least a 4th level Paladin. That's it. Let's go back and look at Turn Undead
A. It was called Turn Undead.
B. It was something granted to Clerics at 1st level and Paladins at 4th level.
C. It had two types, based off of alignment. Turn or Rebuke.
D. It did not require a feat.
And Channel Energy.
A. It is called Channel Energy.
B. It is something granted to Clerics at 1st level and Paladins at 4th level.
C. It has two types, based off of alignment, Positive or Negative.
D. It does not require a feat.
Yes, I'm ignoring some things here. The main difference is, of course, Turn Undead made enemies run away, wheras Channel Energy damages them. To make them run away, you need the feat.
However, I believe the design in making Turn Undead a common prerequisite is listed above. It was used with the *assumption* that it was something clerics always had, and paladins could get. Not something you needed a feat to get.
Now with feats based off of it, it's still doable. If you change the requirement to Channel Energy, little changes. They can still use their daily uses of CE to fuel the feat and make it work. Improved Familiar, however, definitely needs a familiar, and there's little we can do to 'make it work' with the Sorcerer as is, short of giving every bloodline a familiar.
In short:
Changing the 3.5 requirement of Turn Undead to Channel Energy still works with the vast majority of the things that had it as a prerequisite, if not all. It keeps the same intent, assumes clerics have it and paladins can get it, does not require a feat, and is the EASIEST and most PAINLESS fix.
The feats didn't really care that you could make enemies run away in fear, though I would agree that if the specific feat DID hinge on that, then yes, you would need the new Turn Undead feat. If it was only a matter of using up 'charges' of Turn Undead/Channel Energy, go with Channel Energy.
On the other hand, Channel Energy is notably more powerful than Turn Undead was, and the post I was responding to was saying that it was potentially too powerful because it also granted access to all those other feats. The literal RAW state that you need the ability to Turn Undead to use those feats; requiring the Turn Undead feat serves the purpose of de-powering them (incidentally, it also de-powers Nightsticks, which were the real problem with Divine feats).
I'm still interested in why Chris is getting on my case for presenting house rules but not the guy who was presenting house rules who I was responding to.
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I'm still interested in why Chris is getting on my case for presenting house rules but not the guy who was presenting house rules who I was responding to.
Because, as I read his posts, that's not what sprith was doing. (Indeed, his language is provisional: "I imagine that if X works, then I ought to be able to Y." That's not presenting an interpretation as a rule citation.)
If I try to read his post in the worst possible light, the closest I can come to him asserting a house rule is the claim "You can use splat books for more versatility." Considering that one of Jason's design goals with Pathfinder was, yes, we can use D&D splat books, I can't really fault sprith for that.
This is not the forum for discussing conversions. The post is to bring attention to an inconsistancy in the DCs for two uses of channel energy in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
Please take your discussion on cleric feats from 3.5 sourcebooks elsewhere so hopefully the original topic can be addressed.
