Cleave


Rules Questions


Cleave states:

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

Does this mean that if I have a +6 BAB that:

A. I can only make one attack with it plus the Cleave attack.

OR

B. You get your full BAB of attacks (+6, +1) and if the first one hits you get a cleave attack.

I lean towards B. as that is what Mighty Cleaving states:

A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe. Only melee weapons can be mighty cleaving weapons.


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You only make one extra attack with it, because your using it as a standard action.

Basically, cleave lets you move up to that pair of Ogres, swing your sword as a standard action and hit them both, and then have them flank you with 5 foot steps and kill you with their full attack action.

Silver Crusade

lostpike wrote:

Cleave states:

Cleave (Combat)

Does this mean that if I have a +6 BAB that:

A. I can only make one attack with it plus the Cleave attack.

This is the correct interpretation, since Cleave is now a standard action. This feat has become much more effective at low levels when you are facing multiple low hp targets (like goblins). After you receive multiple attacks, it's better to take a full round action for your full attack routine.

Of course, if you have to move more than 5' and there are two adjacent targets (even orges), it is a nice option. Unless you have vital strike (which is apparently incompatible with Cleave). YMMV


sowhereaminow wrote:
lostpike wrote:

Cleave states:

Cleave (Combat)

Does this mean that if I have a +6 BAB that:

A. I can only make one attack with it plus the Cleave attack.

This is the correct interpretation, since Cleave is now a standard action. This feat has become much more effective at low levels when you are facing multiple low hp targets (like goblins). After you receive multiple attacks, it's better to take a full round action for your full attack routine.

Of course, if you have to move more than 5' and there are two adjacent targets (even orges), it is a nice option. Unless you have vital strike (which is apparently incompatible with Cleave). YMMV

]

Would Mighty cleave ability for a weapon be different then per its wording?


Yes it would be.

I would point out that Cleave stays nice for quite a while.

Take for instances a fighter at 7th level.

He could full round attack to take a +7/+2...

Or he could standard action attack with cleave to have +7/+7 versus two opponents and still have a move action.

With great cleave he could keep going as long as he has adjacent opponents.

This is of course situational, since it requires two adjacent opponents, however in the case you have that it does give a better bonus on the attack rolls.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Take for instances a fighter at 7th level.

He could full round attack to take a +7/+2...

Or he could standard action attack with cleave to have +7/+7 versus two opponents and still have a move action.

You're right, that is a nice bonus, but it also has two inherent flaws:

1. If the first attack misses, there is no second attack. At least with iterative strikes, if the +7 rolls badly, the fighter still gets his +2 attack and might still hit with it. Cleave is all-or-nothing.

2. Spreading your damage among two foes just means that both of them pound on you the entire fight. Focusing your damage on one foe means you probably drop him halfway through the fight, so that for the last half of the fight, only one foe is pounding on you. In the long run, you take less damage. Of course, with iterative attacks, your second attack is more likely to miss, so it may not be exactly halfway through the fight.

And none of that takes into consideration the penalty to your AC for using cleave.

No, +7/+7/-2AC is not all a bed of roses compared to +7/+2.

However, there are enough apples and oranges here that it's really hard to say which is better.


lostpike wrote:

Mighty Cleaving states:

A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe. Only melee weapons can be mighty cleaving weapons.

Laughs! Totally misread this. So you cant use mighty cleaving without having the Cleave feat. That stinks...


lostpike wrote:
lostpike wrote:

Mighty Cleaving states:

A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe. Only melee weapons can be mighty cleaving weapons.

Laughs! Totally misread this. So you cant use mighty cleaving without having the Cleave feat. That stinks...

Actually, you CAN use it with cleave. The problem, is your alot less likely to have opportunities to use them combined.

Mighty Cleaving isn't a bad idea of a weapon quality though... I mean you wouldn't want it on your primary weapon, but a secondary one to draw when you have to fight a bunch of mooks... thanks for the inspiration.


Agreed DM_Blake, it is situational like most feats.

When you want it, it's great... when you don't it's nothing. But for the option? I would probably take it on a fighter type...

Maybe even on a medium BAB type really... actually much more likely there...

A medium BAB guy doesn't get his extra attack until 8th level, at which point it's still -5 to hit, and he's 2 points behind the fighter already. He doesn't have as much to lose as the fighter does by missing and not getting the second swing (especially since he has to wait so long for it) and if he hits still has enough of a bonus at his best to hit the second opponent also... the -2 to AC hurts... but many of the classes with medium BAB have means of negating that with spells, or special abilities.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Agreed DM_Blake, it is situational like most feats.

When you want it, it's great... when you don't it's nothing. But for the option? I would probably take it on a fighter type...

Maybe even on a medium BAB type really... actually much more likely there...

A medium BAB guy doesn't get his extra attack until 8th level, at which point it's still -5 to hit, and he's 2 points behind the fighter already. He doesn't have as much to lose as the fighter does by missing and not getting the second swing (especially since he has to wait so long for it) and if he hits still has enough of a bonus at his best to hit the second opponent also... the -2 to AC hurts... but many of the classes with medium BAB have means of negating that with spells, or special abilities.

It's also really nice with reach weapons(maybe reach and enlarged), and the enemies have a lot harder time moving to flank you with full attacks if you start out 10-20 feet away from them.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

If the character using cleave has Hide In Plain Sight... that goes a long way to making sure your first attack hits as well. Treating you as effectively "Invisible" and catching your first opponent flat-footed.

Or some ability or item that allows True Strike.

A simple potion of invisibility has some nice use for a fighter who can now move under stealth to his opponents while invisible strike his first opponent and cleave into his second. As invisibility grants a +20 on stealth checks for a moving target... any remaining armor check penalties after Armor Training are a joke.


Lokie wrote:
A simple potion of invisibility has some nice use for a fighter who can now move under stealth to his opponents while invisible strike his first opponent and cleave into his second. As invisibility grants a +20 on stealth checks for a moving target... any remaining armor check penalties after Armor Training are a joke.

Yeah, one of the few downsides to combining Spot/Listen and Hide/Move Silently. Apparently being invisible makes plate mail quieter. In the midst of battle though, I can live with it. With clanging swords and battle cries and all that, it'd be pretty hard to tell that the suit of armor you're hearing doesn't belong to anyone you can see.

Grand Lodge

ZappoHisbane wrote:
Lokie wrote:
A simple potion of invisibility has some nice use for a fighter who can now move under stealth to his opponents while invisible strike his first opponent and cleave into his second. As invisibility grants a +20 on stealth checks for a moving target... any remaining armor check penalties after Armor Training are a joke.
Yeah, one of the few downsides to combining Spot/Listen and Hide/Move Silently. Apparently being invisible makes plate mail quieter. In the midst of battle though, I can live with it. With clanging swords and battle cries and all that, it'd be pretty hard to tell that the suit of armor you're hearing doesn't belong to anyone you can see.

true, but hearing someone you cant see still only lets you know that they are in the vacinity, it doesnt pinpoint their location just a general direction (unless you make a perception check).

Remember a character trying to sneak up on someone must still use stealth to do so and without ranks in it they cannot (Trained Only). a character in full plate and a heavy shield has a -8 penalty to his check which means while moving under invisibility with only 1 rank in stealth and a 10 dex you can make a perception check to pinpoint their location, considering a 10 result the DC would only be 23.

Now if the character doesnt have stealth you simply get a perception check against a DC 10 to "hear a creature walking". if you make it you know when he is close so you can defend yourself, however you still suffer the penalties for attacking an invisible opponent. some DMs might give you a bonus to the check if the invisible creature is in particularly noisy armor, walking on dry leaves, while whistling and the rules indicate a -2 to the DC per condition (making the DC 4 to pinpoint an invisible opponents location).
Remember that the character is not using any skills so you should not add his armor check penalty to the perception DC though as a DM i would probably rule medium armor -2 and heavy armors -4.


Quijenoth wrote:

Remember a character trying to sneak up on someone must still use stealth to do so and without ranks in it they cannot (Trained Only). a character in full plate and a heavy shield has a -8 penalty to his check which means while moving under invisibility with only 1 rank in stealth and a 10 dex you can make a perception check to pinpoint their location, considering a 10 result the DC would only be 23.

Now if the character doesnt have stealth you simply get a perception check against a DC 10 to "hear a creature walking". if you make it you know when he is close so you can defend yourself, however you still suffer the penalties for attacking an invisible opponent. some DMs might give you a bonus to the check if the invisible creature is in particularly noisy armor, walking on dry leaves, while whistling and the rules indicate a -2 to the DC per condition (making the DC 4 to pinpoint an invisible opponents location).
Remember that the character is not using any skills so you should not add his armor check penalty to the perception DC though as a DM i would probably rule medium armor -2 and heavy armors -4.

Uhhh... Stealth is definitely NOT a trained only skill. So yes you can use it untrained (essentially a DEX check), and ACP would apply always, whether you're trained or not.

Grand Lodge

*blush* dunno what I was smoking at the time to write that :) LOL

Ok, ignoring my schoolboy error about stealth being a trained only skill you still have to be trying to be stealthy to get the benefits of a stealth check. otherwise the DC set by a characters perception should be one of the fixed results presented under the perception skill

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

lostpike wrote:

Cleave ... As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack

A. I can only make one attack with it plus the Cleave attack.

I'm not sure how you came to think B was valid, but A is the only (and correct) interpretation.

You can not take a Full Attack action and a Standard (Cleave) in the same round.


Do you take the -2 AC penalty if you miss with your first attack or do you only get the penalty if you actually get to do a second attack (ie the cleave)?

Silver Crusade

Yes, that is the penalty for potentially getting the two attacks. Most GMs will correctly insist that you state that you intend to cleave before your first attack for that reason.

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