A headband of Vast Intelligence grants you one skill per +2 bonus it has at the maximum number of ranks you can have, but do you in addition get extra skillpoints to spend per level because you effectively have a higher int after wearing it for 24 hrs?
I have not found anything in the rulebook book that indicates that it shouldn't grant both the associated skill AND the extra skillpoints because of higher int from the headband.
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No. The bonus skill is those extra skill points.
A headband of Vast Intelligence grants you one skill per +2 bonus it has at the maximum number of ranks you can have, but do you in addition get extra skillpoints to spend per level because you effectively have a higher int after wearing it for 24 hrs?
I have not found anything in the rulebook book that indicates that it shouldn't grant both the associated skill AND the extra skillpoints because of higher int from the headband.
The headbands should come with an associated skill, you gain 1 skill point/ level in that skill. Apparently if you have ranks in the skill you just lose the extra ranks.
There is also a bonus language associated with the headband also. Essentially, a person with a headband is statistically identical to a person with a natural intelligence of the same number.
The headband listed in the book is not fully statted out because it lacks these things.
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What's that "permanent after 24 hours" line I now see under the various physical belts and mental headbands?!? what is this for?
(Some of you seem to understand this clause, but I don't...)
Edit: is this meant to, effectively, give your ability score an untyped bonus? (i.e. "as if your score was suddenly 2, 4 or 6 points higher, as if it would have progressed there naturally like via levelling up or in the case of an aging wizard, getting a higher Int by growing older" instead of being an enhancement, inherent, sacred or whatever else type of bonus?)
No, it's just to prevent abusing the ability to share items among the party. If it was considered a permanent increase immediately, you could have a headband of intellect used by the wizard to get a bonus spell per day, have him cast that spell, then pass the headband to some other character who then gets some benefit from it (whether that be another extra spell, extra skill points, or whatever else). By requiring a 24 hour attunement period, that becomes pretty much impossible.
What's that "permanent after 24 hours" line I now see under the various physical belts and mental headbands?!? what is this for?
(Some of you seem to understand this clause, but I don't...)
Edit: is this meant to, effectively, give your ability score an untyped bonus? (i.e. "as if your score was suddenly 2, 4 or 6 points higher, as if it would have progressed there naturally like via levelling up or in the case of an aging wizard, getting a higher Int by growing older" instead of being an enhancement, inherent, sacred or whatever else type of bonus?)
There is a difference between the benefits you get from a temporary ability increase and a permanent ability increase. I don't know what page it's on but you can find it here.
It's still considered an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses.
Yeah an insight bonus that lasts longer than 24 hours on say, Intelligence will give a wizard bonus spells. If that bonus only lasted 23 hours and 59 minutes then it wouldn't give him bonus spells.
It doesn't matter the bonus type, only how long it lasts. Anything that lasts beyond 24 hours will give full "bonus" to the person using it (at least until removed). Anything lasting less than 24 hours will not.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
This indicates that the int gained from a headband of vast intelligence +6 gives you 3 ability modifier points extra after 24 hrs and as such you gain 3 skillpoints more the next time you level up in addition to the 3 skills (with maxed ranks appropriate for your HD) that comes with the headband. These extra maxrank=hd skills seem like a bonus, an extra perk to the headband of vast intelligence, giving you, in fact, much more skillpoints than a character without a headband, but with as much int as you.
Can any of you point to some official clarification which states that this is not the case since it is not clear in the book?
Sorry for repeating myself, and thanks for quick replies. :)
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What's that "permanent after 24 hours" line I now see under the various physical belts and mental headbands?!? what is this for?
Crap, I need to make a KReligion check. I don't have any ranks, but wait there is more. I have a Headband of Int +6, and I'm level 20 so I get 60 ranks to spend when I put this on. So standard action to put it on, then next round make a +20 roll on a skill I didn't have 6 seconds ago.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.This indicates that the int gained from a headband of vast intelligence +6 gives you 3 ability modifier points extra after 24 hrs and as such you gain 3 skillpoints more the next time you level up in addition to the 3 skills (with maxed ranks appropriate for your HD) that comes with the headband. These extra maxrank=hd skills seem like a bonus, an extra perk to the headband of vast intelligence, giving you, in fact, much more skillpoints than a character without a headband, but with as much int as you.
Can any of you point to some official clarification which states that this is not the case since it is not clear in the book?
Sorry for repeating myself, and thanks for quick replies. :)
I have been struggling with this myself, and have finally come to some peace with it. I believe this is a correct interpretation.
The paragraph you quoted has that language because there's more than one method to acquiring an INT increase. You're only looking at the specific scenario that you're focused on, which is the Headbands.
There are also wish spells which can raise an ability, and the various Tomes (in the wondrous items). Those can *also* raise the INT ability, so the rules on Page 555 also have to address them. In that case, those items or spells do an instaneous effect (err.. after finishing the Tome?) and the permanent increase to INT gives additional skillpoints.
I'm mentioning the instaneous, because the increase can't be dispelled, or interrupted by having the item removed.
The Headbands are different. Why are they different? Because their description says they're different. Not to be patronizing, but that's it in a nutshell. Their description doesn't contradict the rules on Page 555, but it does tell you how to apply that bonus.
The others have given you the proper rationales. The attunement property prevents abuse... And 'hardwiring' the skill to the Headband prevents a player from taking it on and off (even with attunement) and re-doing all their skill points again. Because if you didn't, someone would take it off, lose those extra skill points, and then put it back on, and potentially chose new skills to put those points in. Even if one were completely honest, it was a bookeeping nightmare.
But the paragraph on Page 555 does seem to leave a loophole for the Headbands, but that is because it also has to address Wishes and Tomes. The description of the Headbands points out how the bonus is to be specifically applied in their case.
Out of sympathy: I would like the paragraph on Pg 555 that you quoted cleaned up a little. It's cut and dry, but it fails to cover all the possibilities. It's easy to get the impression that there are three states: temporary, permanent, and semi-permanent.
What's that "permanent after 24 hours" line I now see under the various physical belts and mental headbands?!? what is this for?Crap, I need to make a KReligion check. I don't have any ranks, but wait there is more. I have a Headband of Int +6, and I'm level 20 so I get 60 ranks to spend when I put this on. So standard action to put it on, then next round make a +20 roll on a skill I didn't have 6 seconds ago.
This assumes your headband of int +6 is specifically set up to give ranks in Knowledge (Religion).
I don't see a real problem with keeping a supply of headbands for this purpose, as it gets prohibitively expensive to do this for multiple skills.
The alternative is that the player converts all their headbands +2 into no-slot items and wear them all the time for free skills. Yeah, your intelligence doesn't keep going up, but nothing states that you don't benefit from all the benefits to so many skills.
It's not too different from grabbing items that gives you bonuses to specific skills.
This assumes your headband of int +6 is specifically set up to give ranks in Knowledge (Religion).What's that "permanent after 24 hours" line I now see under the various physical belts and mental headbands?!? what is this for?Crap, I need to make a KReligion check. I don't have any ranks, but wait there is more. I have a Headband of Int +6, and I'm level 20 so I get 60 ranks to spend when I put this on. So standard action to put it on, then next round make a +20 roll on a skill I didn't have 6 seconds ago.
I think he was just being good naturedly sarcastic in order to illustrate to Purple Dragon Knight why one needed to have a headband set up to give specific ranks. Otherwise chuck all believability out the window, for even a fantasy game
I think he understands how they work.
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This assumes your headband of int +6 is specifically set up to give ranks in Knowledge (Religion).
Unless I am missing something, the additional ranks granted by virtue of the headband raising your INT are not required (in a rule) to be limited to any particular skills. By RAW, my interpretation is each 48 hour period you could find yourself with a completely different set of bonus skill ranks from high INT.
I think he was just being good naturedly sarcastic in order to illustrate to Purple Dragon Knight why one needed to have a headband set up to give specific ranks.
+1 You interpreted correctly.
an extra perk to the headband of vast intelligence, giving you, in fact, much more skillpoints than a character without a headband, but with as much int as you.
If by this you think you gain the +3 per Level twice (once for p555 and once for the rules in the Headband), then no. You only gain the skills once. So a Headband of Int +6 character with an INT of 20 (including the +6 from the headband) would have identical skill points to a nekkid Wizard with 20 INT.
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This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
The skill points are granted, then accounted for. When you craft an item that would give enough of a bonus to intelligence to up a skill, the skills that get the points are chosen ahead of time.
It was never intended to be the "I take it off and in forty eight hours I get to redo my skills entirely."
In fact that's why the item has to choose a skill ahead of time, otherwise it only helps random knowledge skills.
If you want to rule it that way, then I would suggest very quickly not doing so. As you are opening yourself to a world of pain. You are explaining the exact reason why 3.5 doesn't allow bonus skill points for intelligence boosting items. Pathfinder's fix for that is the item has to declare what skill those points go into.
Ruling any other was is a ridiculous abuse of the rules as written AND as intended.
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In fact that's why the item has to choose a skill ahead of time, otherwise it only helps random knowledge skills.
Ruling any other was is a ridiculous abuse of the rules as written AND as intended.
Awesome, I actually missed that sentence when I parsed the item (which lead to me making fun of the way it could be abused by the "48 hours = skill reshuffle" gig.)
As for your RAW interpretation, I agree 100% and I agree that is RAI.
As for the OP, you get the skills in the Headband as it was made. Those are the bonus skill ranks from higher INT. You don't get double the number of skill ranks the increase would provide if you started with the higher INT.
As for the OP, you get the skills in the Headband as it was made. Those are the bonus skill ranks from higher INT. You don't get double the number of skill ranks the increase would provide if you started with the higher INT.
That's what I'm thinking it SHOULD be aswell, but it's not what the rules say. To me, this isn't a loophole, it looks like it is meant to work this way. Maybe paizo screwed up with the wording, but then I'd like it errata'd or get an official comment on it before I take anyones interpretation for it in place of my own.
Another thing: It seems p.16/17 contradicts p.555 in terms of intelligence and skill points. P.16/17 indicates int does NOT grant you skill points for previous levels, only for levels you gain with your new int score. From this it follows that if you for some reason lose int and then lvl up with a lower int score, you get fewer skillpoints, but you still keep what you gained while your score was high. This makes sense because you WERE smart and LEARNED faster, what you learned doesn't go away just because you now learn slower. It also makes sense with the way I interpret the headband because then it is more powerful as it grants you the ability to get skillpoints for levels past, not only for future levels to come, hence making the headband useful even for a high-level non-wizard looking for some skill ranks. It's not a bookie nightmare, because you don't have to keep track of where you got your skillpoints. You only had to make sure to add the correct number of skill points each time you level. As you do with a simple HP roll. The part on p.555 just screws with the entire thing, making the int headband even more powerful as it seemingly grants double skillpoints for its bonus for all HD, not just for future HDs gained.
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Another thing: It seems p.16/17 contradicts p.555 in terms of intelligence and skill points. P.16/17 indicates int does NOT grant you skill points for previous levels, only for levels you gain with your new int score.
Where are you getting that interpretation from?
P. 17 states only that your Int modifier affects the number of skill points gained each level.
It does not state that you don't retroactively gain skill points.
I seem to recall it being pointed out somewhere during the beta that the intent was to have Int bonuses apply skill points retroactively, particularly to ease the creation of high-level NPCs, like wizards, who would have their Int changing.
I seem to recall it being pointed out somewhere during the beta that the intent was to have Int bonuses apply skill points retroactively, particularly to ease the creation of high-level NPCs, like wizards, who would have their Int changing.This is correct.
And we've talked about this Mosiac, and I've read a lot of your posts.
And that makes sense. And the ruling on page 555 does support that, but I believe Page 555 is also emcompassing wishes and tomes.
In the case of headbands, I maintain that they do not give retroactive skill points (or any skill points whatsoever), they give fixed skill ranks as described..
I base this on their description. Their description is the governing factor for them specifically.
I concede that does come into some opposition to what is said on page 555, but as I said earlier in the thread.. Page 555 is also addressing inherent and instaneous bonuses from wishes and tomes. And it's a great reason for a Designer to weigh in here.
Supporting evidence: Compare the price of a Tome of Clear Thought that gives a +1 intelligence, to a Headband of Vast Intelligence that gives a +2 intelligence. Both can be considered a Permanent Bonus according to Page 555, so why the massive price difference? Because a Tome is giving you skill points, that are retroactive as described on page 555.
A headband does not.
I'm thinking it SHOULD be aswell, but it's not what the rules say.You and I disagree on what it "says" then as to me it clearly says what you think it "should" say.
So, how do you read it? What makes you read that the headband does not give you skill points? It doesn't say anywhere that it shouldn't!
Let me just go over the relevant text with you all:
"The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6."
This means you get skill points.
"Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours
the headband is worn."
This means you have to wait 24 hrs before you get skillpoints.
"A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants."
Whaat? More skills? imba! :D
"After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer’s total Hit Dice."
Fair enough. Prevents abuse.
"These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses."
Okay, fair enough. Stacking WOULD be crazy.
"These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is
listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly
determined Knowledge skills."
Huh. So more often than not, these skills are worthless knowledge skills you probably don't want, or already have. Sure glad I get some skill points from the high int it grants anyways then. :)
So... where does it say you DON'T get skill points from a headband?
Example Headband of Vast Intellect
Rogue's Headband of Vast Intellect +4 (Disguise, Disable Device)
How does it work?
Joe the Paladin (10th level, Dex 14, Cha 16) puts on the headband at Noon. For the rest of the day and night he has a +4 INT. At Noon the next day, the rest of the effect kicks in, and knowledge floods into Joe's brain. Suddenly, he understands how to mix makeup to change the color of his skin, how to fake up a handlebar mustache using his own hair clippings, how to make a robe look just worn enough by walking on it in the dirt for 20 minutes and then flapping it out. He also looks at the lock on his chest and realizes that with a bit of wire and a good strong twig he could get into that chest without using the key in his pocket.
In Game Terms,
24hours after putting it on, he gains (if he doesn't already have them) Disguise and Disable Divice Skills. Let's say he had already put 2 ranks into Disguise (camoflauge for his armor). Prior to the headband activating, he would have had Disguise 5 (2 ranks, +3 CHA).
After the headband kinks in, he has the following :
Disguise : 13 (10 Ranks from Headband (his hit dice) +3 CHA)
Disable Device : 12 (10 Ranks from Headband (his hit dice) +2 DEX)
The two ranks he had originally are subsumed by the ranks from the headband. This makes sense, because the headband has much more information in it, and duplicated all the skills in Disguise he'd already learned. Why doesn't have have 20 ranks? Because his brain is not advanced enough to access all the information in the headband, his limit is how advanced he is (IE: same reason he can only have 10 ranks in Ride)). If Disguise or Disable Device were class skills for him, he'd get a +3 bonus on them because they were class skills and he now has ranks in them.
In Game,
Joe takes the headband off 3 weeks later for 20 minutes to take a bath (first in 3 weeks, he's reeking big time). All his skill in Disguise and Disable Device go away immediately. When he finally puts it back on after the bath, he has to wait 24 more hours for those skills to come back.
So, how do you read it? What makes you read that the headband does not give you skill points? It doesn't say anywhere that it shouldn't!
Let me just go over the relevant text with you all:
"The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6."
This means you get skill points.
So... where does it say you DON'T get skill points from a headband?
At no place does the description say you get skill points. You get ranks in certain skills (in the portion of your quote from the PRD I cut). So tell me: why should you effectively get skill points equal to 2 points per character level for donning the item? You get 1 rank per +2 bonus from the built-in skill already. If you get one of these enchanted for yourself, you could pick the skills most useful to you. If not, well, Knowledge skills are only as useful as you, personally, make them. Me, I personally like to know things like, "what is this critter?" and "how do I kill it?"
Actually it does state you gain skill points:
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points , hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Actually it does state you gain skill points:
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points , hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
My apologies Abraham, I meant the item description itself. But I still question why getting a +2 to your Intelligence stat should effectively give you 1 skill point per level (as you quote above me for why) and then more skill points (effectively) from the skill put into the item at creation. Retroactive bonuses for Constitution do not apply twice, nor any other stat, but this case-well argued-just doesn't seem quite logical to me. Within the rules, yes, but logical? Not quite.
Well it does make a headband of int that you find with crappy knowledge skills you don't need still useful for those extra skill points, although if it is not intended, and that may well be likely since any custom crafted headband will benefit the owner a bit too much, then paizo should put it in an errata, correct it on their website and so forth.
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It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it? :-)
The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.
So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).
You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.
I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.
EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
That I can understand, and then there is the question of the PC wanting to try and re-choose each time he takes off and puts on his headband (which couldn't happen truthfully since you've chosen your skill points and that's were they stay).
I just wanted to point out the RAW of it. If you have a means of getting an enhancement bonus to Int that lasted longer than 24 hours and wasn't from a headband (specific item) then you would get the skill points.
As is RAW you do, but the situation is screwy to say the least.
Edit: Ninja'd by James.
Question for James (if he stays around and has the time)
What about spell mastery?
My apologies Abraham, I meant the item description itself. But I still question why getting a +2 to your Intelligence stat should effectively give you 1 skill point per level (as you quote above me for why) and then more skill points (effectively) from the skill put into the item at creation. Retroactive bonuses for Constitution do not apply twice, nor any other stat, but this case-well argued-just doesn't seem quite logical to me. Within the rules, yes, but logical? Not quite.Actually it does state you gain skill points:
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points , hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
I agree. I've posted a couple times prior in this thread, and I don't seem to get much of a readership. That's okay. That's life.
I don't think it's logical either. I think Abraham has correctly cited what's written, but that it also needs to be reviewed by Jason for possible clarification.
What Abraham is citing also has to apply to Wishes and Tomes, which is what I think that passage is actualy intended for.
I don't think it was meant to override the description of the Headbands. See my previous posts for a more detailed explanation.
Though.. I'll toss out my example one more time:
If the quoted passage was intended to apply to Headbands, why on earth would a Tome that grants you a permanent +1 bonus to INT cost 27,500 gps, and a Headband that grants permanent bonus of +2 to Intelligence (after attunement) cost 4,000 gps?
Because one grants an inherent bonus with skill points, and the other gives you fixed skill ranks (after attunement).
Ninja-ed by James
But hey.. that's okay.
He agreed with me. It's not every day he does that!
Whoohoo!
That I can understand, and then there is the question of the PC wanting to try and re-choose each time he takes off and puts on his headband (which couldn't happen truthfully since you've chosen your skill points and that's were they stay).
I just wanted to point out the RAW of it. If you have a means of getting an enhancement bonus to Int that lasted longer than 24 hours and wasn't from a headband (specific item) then you would get the skill points.
As is RAW you do, but the situation is screwy to say the least.
Edit: Ninja'd by James.
Question for James (if he stays around and has the time)
What about spell mastery?
The only item in PFRPG that does that, I believe would be an specific ioun stone, which has the same price as a no-slot headband of vast intelligence.
Unlike the headband, however, you can pick and choose which skills the item goes into each time, it just has to be picked 24 hours in advance to get the skill point benefit.
My little problem with this setup, however, is that it somewhat goes against the items crafting rules. Headbands of vast intellect cost the same as any other similar stat-boosting item, but they have a limitation. Likewise, so does the slotless variation (the ioun stone).
These items should really have some sort of discount or incentive, or have the true slot-less variation (the kind that requires a fancy disarm check) cost more.
Otherwise, there's no real incentive to have the floaty rock, is there?
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EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
James, I recall having a conversation with Jason about this, on the PFS GM boards right before Gen Con, and he was under the impression that the headbands ought to hard-code all of the boosts, including (a) which languages the character knows, and (b) which bonus spells a wizard ought to receive.
At the convention, I asked him about that. Was he sure? Yes.
So, the full stats for a particular headband of vast intellect +4 might look like:
Skills hard-coded: Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Languages hard-coded: Abyssal, Ancient Thassilonian
Extra Spells hard-coded: comprehend languages, locate object, arcane sight, fear, blight, antimagic field, ethereal jaunt, maze, foresight.
EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.James, I recall having a conversation with Jason about this, on the PFS GM boards right before Gen Con, and he was under the impression that the headbands ought to hard-code all of the boosts, including (a) which languages the character knows, and (b) which bonus spells a wizard ought to receive.
At the convention, I asked him about that. Was he sure? Yes.
So, the full stats for a particular headband of vast intellect +4 might look like:
Skills hard-coded: Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Languages hard-coded: Abyssal, Ancient Thassilonian
Extra Spells hard-coded: comprehend languages, locate object, arcane sight, fear, blight, antimagic field, ethereal jaunt, maze, foresight.
And Chris.. I have done every concievable web search I could to find that in writing, and I've actually found your old posts stating this to other folks a couple times.
I'm not griping at you, but when time finally permits I'd love to see Jason put this in writing where we can all see it.
I agree. I've posted a couple times prior in this thread, and I don't seem to get much of a readership. That's okay. That's life.
I don't think it's logical either. I think Abraham has correctly cited what's written, but that it also needs to be reviewed by Jason for possible clarification.
What Abraham is citing also has to apply to Wishes and Tomes, which is what I think that passage is actualy intended for.
I don't think it was meant to override the description of the Headbands. See my previous posts for a more detailed explanation.
Though.. I'll toss out my example one more time:
If the quoted passage was intended to apply to Headbands, why on earth would a Tome that grants you a permanent +1 bonus to INT cost 27,500 gps, and a Headband that grants permanent bonus of +2 to Intelligence (after attunement) cost 4,000 gps?
Because one grants an inherent bonus with skill points, and the other gives you fixed skill ranks (after attunement).
I've been reading the thread too, Watcher, and I saw your posts. I just hit a critical logic threshold and went off. Thankfully James spelled it out for us. I remember this coming up during the playtest, I was just too lazy to go through and find the archived thread.
Thanks again for the clarification James!
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And Chris.. I have done every concievable web search I could to find that in writing, and I've actually found your old posts stating this to other folks a couple times.I'm not griping at you, but when time finally permits I'd love to see Jason put this in writing where we can all see it.
(shows palms)
That would make me happy as well. Hell, I'd be even happier if I turned out to be wrong, because I feel that's much more information than the headband ought to be carrying around.For my money, it would make more sense to leave the extra spell slots open. Heck, since it takes 24 hours for the "permanent" properties of the headband to kick in, it would allow the wizard to prepare whatever extra spell she chooses in the new slots, if she's of the right level to use them.
(shows palms)
That would make me happy as well. Hell, I'd be even happier if I turned out to be wrong, because I feel that's much more information than the headband ought to be carrying around.For my money, it would make more sense to leave the extra spell slots open. Heck, since it takes 24 hours for the "permanent" properties of the headband to kick in, it would allow the wizard to prepare whatever extra spell she chooses in the new slots, if she's of the right level to use them.
I agree on all counts. :)
You can put your hands down now.
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So... where does it say you DON'T get skill points from a headband?
It gives you skill ranks, specifically the ones it was built to provide.
Since it gives you ranks, you don't get double ranks (because p555 rule is already active in the form of the ranks it gives you.)
I just wanted to point out the RAW of it.
This gets back to my issue. There is no one "RAW" in most cases (essentially in all cases where there are two different interpretations.)
There are possible versions of RAW, and each version has different meanings. This is why an FAQ that enforces "I AM ERRATA, HEAR ME ROAR" is the only way to fix this. When they say "it gives explicit ranks in explicit skills but not ranks from p555" people say "but RAW I get both." No you don't "by RAW", at least not in the official interpretation.
It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it? :-)
The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.
So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).
You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.
I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.
EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
Thanks for the clarification and for taking note of this.
Putting earned points into int at lvl 4 and 8, and or tomes, doesn't give you bonus languages does it, so why should the headband? Specifically, where does it say that you get languages for increased int? It's only at lvl 1 you get them, right? At least that's what p.17 indicates.
I would like to suggest adding a clarification to the headband of vast intellect description, maybe something along the lines of:
"The skills granted by a headband of vast intelligence replace any skill points you would otherwise get from an increased intelligence score." That way, this specific statement beats the general rule on p.555 and there can be no confusion about it.
Regarding Ioun stones, they should probably have a clarification about the Scarlet and blue stone working just as the headband of vast intellect, cause as is now it can be abused. Or maybe that's fine - it being versatile since it's an ioun stone, after all?
Tomes of intellect is fine as is, imo. The int gain isn't removable, so there's no room for abuse, and you get skill points as you should.
Same with int gained on lvl 4, 8, 12 etc.
Regarding why one would pick Ioun Stones over headband... That's a good point! I used to think that you could have more than 1 Ioun Stone swirling around your head and get mass bonuses, balanced out by the fact that they could potentially and quite literally be stolen right from under your nose, but I don't actually see the possiblity of having several at once mentioned anywhere, so I guess not. There's even a picture of a guy with about 6 Ioun Stones swirling around his head in the D&D 3.5 DMG...
So... where does it say you DON'T get skill points from a headband?It gives you skill ranks, specifically the ones it was built to provide.
Since it gives you ranks, you don't get double ranks (because p555 rule is already active in the form of the ranks it gives you.)
It doesn't say specifically that these are those skill points. You have to guess. If you're a rules lawyer playing a wizard crafting a headband and you get both the associated skills AND skill points for high int you haven't done it wrong according to the diffuse RAW. You've stayed within the framework of the rules.
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Putting earned points into int at lvl 4 and 8, and or tomes, doesn't give you bonus languages does it, so why should the headband? Specifically, where does it say that you get languages for increased int? It's only at lvl 1 you get them, right? At least that's what p.17 indicates.
One of the design goals of Pathfinder is to give designers and GMs an easier time statting up higher-level NPCs, by eliminating the differences between initial attributes and attribute boosts.
If your PC's Intelligence rises from, say, 13 to 14, he gets skill points, for each level as if he'd begun with an INT of 14. (The same way a rise in CON generates hit points per each level.) And he immediately learns a language.
James, I recall having a conversation with Jason about this, on the PFS GM boards right before Gen Con, and he was under the impression that the headbands ought to hard-code all of the boosts, including (a) which languages the character knows, and (b) which bonus spells a wizard ought to receive.
At the convention, I asked him about that. Was he sure? Yes.
So, the full stats for a particular headband of vast intellect +4 might look like:
Skills hard-coded: Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Languages hard-coded: Abyssal, Ancient Thassilonian
Extra Spells hard-coded: comprehend languages, locate object, arcane sight, fear, blight, antimagic field, ethereal jaunt, maze, foresight.
So I get everything about this, and I agree with the hard-coding, it is the only way to reasonably allow this item without players trying to take too much advantage from random loot. (I mention the random loot, because I would have no problem with player's specifically choosing their skills and some common languages if they purchased things from a store)
The only thing I'm not quite getting is the mention of the bonus spells. If I'm not mistaken, a Wizard gets to choose his spells each morning while preparing spells. Unless you refer to a different kind of extra spells, I don't see why these would have to be hard-coded. In the case of the spells, you can't have people taking advantage of anything by taking off the item and then putting it back on... You only get the bonus spells if you have worn the item for at least 24 hours, because you don't get bonus spells from the temporary bonus, and taking the item off midday (or even spells that damage intelligence normally) would cause the loss of spells normally. Putting the item back on in the same day wouldn't bring those spells back, and you would have to wait until the day after to be able to prepare them again (as you wouldn't have the permanent increase for at least 24 hours).
Hardcoding the spells would seem to only be a detriment, it would force wizards to prepare particular spells based on their headband, which is precisely NOT the point of a wizard. Not only that, it could possibly make them prepare spells they don't even know or are in prohibited schools, it simply doesn't make senese.
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The only thing I'm not quite getting is the mention of the bonus spells. If I'm not mistaken, a Wizard gets to choose his spells each morning while preparing spells. I don't see why these would have to be hard-coded.
I agree with you. I'm hoping that Jason was frazzled getting ready for GenCon or tired while he was there, or that I was simply misunderstanding him, and that he'll correct me.
By the way, there are plenty of items that provide bonuses to skills. (Cloak of Elvenkind, as an obvious example.) But so far as I can recall, the Pathfinder version of the headbands are the only items that bestow proficiency in specific languages. (I presume that languages like Druidic, which can't be learned with increased Intelligence, can't be hard-coded into the headband.)
One of the design goals of Pathfinder is to give designers and GMs an easier time statting up higher-level NPCs, by eliminating the differences between initial attributes and attribute boosts.
If your PC's Intelligence rises from, say, 13 to 14, he gets skill points, for each level as if he'd begun with an INT of 14. (The same way a rise in CON generates hit points per each level.) And he immediately learns a language.
I realize that, but where do you get this information? P.17 doesn't agree with you and p.555 isn't specific enough. The RAW, or maybe even RAI of these two pages relevant to int seem to actually contradict each other. It's just confusing if you read this without actually being a part of the all-knowing community.
See what I'm getting at?
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Question for James (if he stays around and has the time)
What about spell mastery?
Spell mastery, I'd say, would lose out. Unless you don't mind the extra paperwork involved in tracking that much more info for every +Int item... Spell mastery, in my experience, is taken so rarely (if ever!) that I don't think it's worth it to clutter up the +Int items with that extra stuff.
One of the design goals of Pathfinder is to give designers and GMs an easier time statting up higher-level NPCs, by eliminating the differences between initial attributes and attribute boosts.
If your PC's Intelligence rises from, say, 13 to 14, he gets skill points, for each level as if he'd begun with an INT of 14. (The same way a rise in CON generates hit points per each level.) And he immediately learns a language.
I realize that, but where do you get this information? P.17 doesn't agree with you and p.555 isn't specific enough. The RAW, or maybe even RAI of these two pages relevant to int seem to actually contradict each other. It's just confusing if you read this without actually being a part of the all-knowing community.
See what I'm getting at?
Page 17 doesn't say anything at all about increasing Intelligence. So I'm not sure what you are pointing out here.
As to 555, under Permanent Bonus's it says :
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Note the bolded part, Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. That's the part you are looking for. All statistics related to Int are : Skill points gained at each level, Languages learned at 1st level, attribute bonus's to INT skills, and spells per day for certain casters.
I don't think anyone would argue that an attribute gained through leveling is not permanent. So, that means that if your INT goes from 17 to 18 at 8th level, you gain one language, 8 skill points (one for each level), all your Int based skills go up by one, and you recheck your spells per day based on the new attribute score.