A question has come up in my local gaming group about feats and untyped bonuses. My general standing rule is untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack. Thus, different feats that give a bonus to a skill do not stack unless stated in the feat. I was wondering how other GMs handle this type of situation:
Brently the Bard wants to be a master diplomat, so he has gone half-elf with choosing his Skill Focus as Diplomacy, +3 Diplomacy. Then for his first level feat he has chosen Persuasive, which gives a +2 to Diplomacy and Intimidate. Because both are feats with untyped bonuses that fail to mention stacking I have ruled that he will only get the +3 from Skill Focus and not a combined +5 from both feats.
Am I a horrible rule's lawyer or a sensible GM? :)
Am I a horrible rule's lawyer or a sensible GM? :)
They are both untyped bonuses and therefore stack. Your players character should get a +5 bonus on diplomacy. It is intentional.
EDIT: The bonuses are not from the same source. Although the sources might be similar.
Bonuses, untyped or not, from the same source do not stack.
Two different feats are not the same source. They are two different sources. As long as one gives an untyped bonus, the feats will stack with each other (and if both give untyped bonuses, they will stack with everything else, too).
Honestly, untyped bonuses always stack, and different sources will stack, but not with themselves. The only thing that I might also let stack with itself is circumstance bonuses, but only if I as a DM thought the two sources would logically stack. Circumstance bonuses are something that's pretty much in the DMs court anyway.
With my current game, I've cut off pretty much all spells that add +10 to skill checks, since after my archivist in a previous game was able to pull off +80 or something with just a few feats and spells, I realized how insane it could get.
Honestly, untyped bonuses always stack, and different sources will stack, but not with themselves. The only thing that I might also let stack with itself is circumstance bonuses, but only if I as a DM thought the two sources would logically stack. Circumstance bonuses are something that's pretty much in the DMs court anyway.
Just FYI, there are three bonus sources that always explicitly stack according to the rules (except if you try to apply the same source multiple times, of course): untyped, circumstance, and dodge. Any other bonus source explicitly will not stack with any other source of the same type.
So, really, you're only missing dodge, there.
so the next question is ... what would be an example of an untyped bonus from the same source?
so the next question is ... what would be an example of an untyped bonus from the same source?
The glibness spell, for one example. It gives a "+20 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words" -- notice that no type is given. That makes it an untyped bonus. However, you cannot cast glibness twice to get a +40 bonus. The bonuses are both from the same source (the glibness spell) and thus do not stack. If there were another spell, let's call it gift of gab, that gave a "+20 bonus on Bluff checks to mislead another person", it would stack with glibness and give a +40 total bonus, even though they both essentially give a bonus in the same situation. The bonuses are still from different sources.
so the next question is ... what would be an example of an untyped bonus from the same source?
An untyped bonus from the same source would be like taking Skill Focus Diplomacy twice. They don't stack for +6 so you'd never do it unless the feat says you can stack. For example Fleet adds +5 to you movement and it stacks if taken multiple times.
The glibness spell, for one example. It gives a "+20 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words" -- notice that no type is given. That makes it an untyped bonus. However, you cannot cast glibness twice to get a +40 bonus. The bonuses are both from the same source (the glibness spell) and thus do not stack. If there were another spell, let's call it gift of gab, that gave a "+20 bonus on Bluff checks to mislead another person", it would stack with glibness and give a +40 total bonus, even though they both essentially give a bonus in the same situation. The bonuses are still from different sources.
What if there was a second spell, of different level that gave an untyped bonus, would you allow both spells to stack with each other?
I know we are now charting into the extreme "maybe" and "what-if" but I am not completely convinced. As a GM I know that ultimately I have to decide which way to make the ruling and I don't want to dampen a player's fun but I also want to have a reasonable challenge. Heroic is heroic but once he hits lvl 10, that +5 bonus becomes a +10, which given all the possibilities he could under the current rules have the following Diplomacy:
+10 Ranks
+3 Class Skill
+8 Stat Bonus (20 base with +6 CHA item)
+6 Skill Focus
+4 Persuasive
+5 competence bonus from item
Total +36 Diplomacy
I am almost positive that in 3.5 those two feats didn't stack ... I'm curious as to why the change.
What if there was a second spell, of different level that gave an untyped bonus, would you allow both spells to stack with each other?
Yes, that's what my "gift of gab" example was meant to illustrate. There is no "gift of gab" spell. Two different spells are two different bonuses, even if they're cast by the same caster and affect exactly the same circumstances. The same spell, even if cast twice by two different people, is the same source.
I am almost positive that in 3.5 those two feats didn't stack ... I'm curious as to why the change.
They did stack in 3.5. There's no change in this regard, although Skill Focus and the +2/+2 feats did get an improvement (the doubling at 10 ranks).
You can also add to that:
+1 luck bonus (stone of good luck/luckstone)
+5 to +15 insight bonus from casting Divine Insight (good for only one check, but still useful)
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
My general standing rule is untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack. Thus, different feats that give a bonus to a skill do not stack unless stated in the feat.
Untyped things from the same source do not stack (p208), but different feats are different sources.
If the feats have different names, they are different sources.
Two identical items are the same source (same name.)
What if there was a second spell, of different level that gave an untyped bonus, would you allow both spells to stack with each other?
I am almost positive that in 3.5 those two feats didn't stack ... I'm curious as to why the change.
Yes, another spell would stack. But the point of creating a similar spell is to KNOW that you are allowing it to stack with Glibness or putting a line in that it doesn't stack with a similar spell etc.
They stacked in 3.5, since the stacking rules in 3.p didn't change from 3.5 rules.
so the next question is ... what would be an example of an untyped bonus from the same source?
The best example I can think of are magic weapons.
All magic weapons are master work.
Master work weapons provide a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Magic weapons also provide enhancement bonuses to attack rolls equal to their plus.
Yet a +1 longsword only provides +1 enhancement to attack rolls, not a +2.
There are not many examples of untyped bonus from same source aside from spells (but most spells do not provide untyped bonuses). In general feats cannot be taken more than once and when they can a special section will explain how it applies (skill focus for instance, can be taken multiple times, but each time it must apply to a new skill).
It's 4th Ed. where feats grant a typed "feat bonus" and explicitly don't stack.
It's 4th Ed. where feats grant a typed "feat bonus" and explicitly don't stack.
Waaaagh...
Do not mention the unspeakable!Its influence threatens to corrupt this holy ground!
It's 4th Ed. where feats grant a typed "feat bonus" and explicitly don't stack.
Sorry for my outburst, I could not help it :D
Thanks for clarifying that. I have started to notice a lot of confusion about PF rules actually stems from 3E and 3.5 bagage. It is good that you could call this one as I imageine 4E also adds to the confusion in other threads.
Add your Constitution score to your hit points! Multiclassing is a feat! Encounter power! Encounter power! Hastur!
Add your Constitution score to your hit points! Multiclassing is a feat! Encounter power! Encounter power! Hastur!
Please let us meditate upon our inner peace and refrain from walking down that dark path. Hummmmm...
EDIT: Tejón is a wolverine, right?!
EDIT: Tejón is a wolverine, right?!
Close! Badger.
EDIT: Tejón is a wolverine, right?!Close! Badger.
Of course. And the other is glotón.
Sorry for going off topic.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
so the next question is ... what would be an example of an untyped bonus from the same source?The best example I can think of are magic weapons.
Weapons are not untyped, they are enhancement bonuses.
Untype would be 100 Orange Ioun Stones of +1 CL don't stack with each other, so you are still only +1 CL.
What if there was a second spell, of different level that gave an untyped bonus, would you allow both spells to stack with each other?
A second spell would be a non-core source, you can rule however you like on that. Personally, any other glibness type spell I allow in would have a "does not stack with glibness" clause in it.
+10 Ranks
+3 Class Skill
+8 Stat Bonus (20 base with +6 CHA item)
+6 Skill Focus
+4 Persuasive
+5 competence bonus from item
Total +36 DiplomacyI am almost positive that in 3.5 those two feats didn't stack ... I'm curious as to why the change.
They do stack. However I think if you look into it diplomacy isn't as crazy powerful as it used to be. "Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future."
so the next question is ... what would be an example of an untyped bonus from the same source?The best example I can think of are magic weapons.Weapons are not untyped, they are enhancement bonuses.
Untype would be 100 Orange Ioun Stones of +1 CL don't stack with each other, so you are still only +1 CL.
Of course you are right - it just goes to show that it is not a very common problem :)
This thread is mega-old, but I have a a player that is basically posing the same question but with regards to two feats and a trait:
Varisan tattoo: Grants ability to cast spells from chosen school at +1 CL
Spell Specialization: Choose a spell from chosen school and cast it at +2 CL; can be taken multiple times for different spells
Trait-Inspired by Greatness: Choose a spell, you always cast it at +1 CL
Would these stack to grant a 1st level Sorcerer a Burning Hands at 5th CL?
Yes, but only if you take sorcerer archetype that replaces Eshew Materials with Varisian Tattoo and be human to get all the required feats.
|
Varisian tattoo: Feat, requires Spell Focus, +1 caster level, untyped
Spell Specialization: Feat, requires Int 13, Spell Focus, +2 caster levels, untyped
Inspired by Greatness: +1 caster level, untyped
They can stack, but they require too many feats to take for a 1st level Sorcerer to be able to take.
Spell Focus
Varisian Tattoo
Spell Specialization
However, they would be feasible for a 1st level PFS Wizard to take. But they don't play that well with a Wizard's greater flexibility, IMO.
At low levels, it burns too many resources for too little return for a Wizard, and Sorcerer won't be able to take the combo until 3rd level, at a minimum.
And, of course, Inspired by Greatness is self-limiting, since you are either going to be using it on a spell that caps fairly early, or not getting any benefit from it for several levels.
The other two, at least, have some flexibility, either affecting an entire school of magic, or being able to change the spell targeted every even class level.
So, a Wizard gets a 5d4 Burning Hands 2-3 times a day, but no other 1st level spells learned, or it is a once-a-day get-out-of-jail card, which has to be carefully used, since it is area effect, and will be a bad thing to include your own party members in at that level. 5d4 = 12.5 points of damage, average, which will, generally, be enough to take down any of your frontliners (other than a Barbarian or a Fighter/Ranger with Toughness) if they fail the saving throw.
And, to be honest, with a Wizard, I would probably put it on Magic Missile, at least initially, and 3x1d4+1 isn't that bad. And at least it reduces the chance of devastating your own party. And is totally negated by the Shield spell or a Brooch of Shielding.
I would be scared by this combo on a Magus, but, even there, it requires more feats than they have at 1st level.
A Tattooed Sorcerer could get Mage's Tattoo (Varisian Tattoo) for free, so a human tattooed sorcerer could get it with Mage's Tattoo (Class Bonus) Spell Focus (Human Bonus), Spell Specialization (1st level feat).
I don't disagree with the cost to utility ratio, though. Pretty extreme, IMO.
Trait-Inspired by Greatness: Choose a spell, you always cast it at +1 CL
This is a campaign specific Trait, you can choose not to let them have it if you feel its messing up your game. But as Kinevon said above, it will lose its flare fast being that its only for one spell.
Trait-Inspired by Greatness: Choose a spell, you always cast it at +1 CLThis is a campaign specific Trait, you can choose not to let them have it if you feel its messing up your game. But as Kinevon said above, it will lose its flare fast being that its only for one spell.
I totally agree. It will be great for the first few levels, but really taper off fast.
RE: Campaign specific - we're actually gearing up to play Carrion Crown :)
RE: Campaign specific - we're actually gearing up to play Carrion Crown :)
Let him have it, I love campaign specific traits when used for the campaign.
=)
Honestly, untyped bonuses always stack, and different sources will stack, but not with themselves. The only thing that I might also let stack with itself is circumstance bonuses, but only if I as a DM thought the two sources would logically stack. Circumstance bonuses are something that's pretty much in the DMs court anyway.Just FYI, there are three bonus sources that always explicitly stack according to the rules (except if you try to apply the same source multiple times, of course): untyped, circumstance, and dodge. Any other bonus source explicitly will not stack with any other source of the same type.
So, really, you're only missing dodge, there.
Note: it is actually 4, as racial bonuses stack too.
Trait-Inspired by Greatness: Choose a spell, you always cast it at +1 CLThis is a campaign specific Trait, you can choose not to let them have it if you feel its messing up your game. But as Kinevon said above, it will lose its flare fast being that its only for one spell.
Who needs Inspired by Greatness, anyway?
Gifted Adept: Your interest in magic was inspired by witnessing a spell being cast in a particularly dramatic method, perhaps even one that affected you physically or spiritually. This early exposure to magic has made it easier for you to work similar magic on your own. Pick one spell when you choose this trait—from this point on, whenever you cast that spell, its effects manifest at +1 caster level.