Fighter vs Monk


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi,

now normally I don't play monks, actually haven't seen one played in ANY game. Got the gist that in 3.5 they were a very survivable class (saves, evasion etc) but lacked damage output.

Have been looking at the PF version and while keen to play one, am interested in views on balance in and out of melee. (From experienced monk players)

Just as a break down it seems the Fighter and monk share some striking similarities (role wise)

First- monks get alot of (effectively) free feats.
Flurry of blows is effectively the TWF chain (3 feats) what'smore he does so at a full attack bonus (since flurry of blows hits higher than his normal BAB) He also effectively gets Doubleslice since he uses his full STR bonus on what would be 'offhand' attacks

Further he gets 6 bonus feats (total 10 if FOB is taken into account)and while his list is somewhat limited, he does not need to meet preq for them. (Thus the preq are not taking up feat slots)

So, while lacking the ability to freely choose all his feats he effectivly gets 10 (one less than a fighter)

Now at first glance this would seem to pigeonwhole a monk to being a full attacker- his flurry of blows functions only on Full attack.
Being able to put a Trip etc as part of the attack is also nice.

BUT he has extra speed and with his bonus feat suggestions (I'd probably take -dodge,mob,spring) and the ability to use stunning fist at the end of a move suggests certain tactics.

EG. RD 1 Move to target and attempt a stunning fist.
RD 2 Attempt to use flurry of blows

A monk has the feats available for step up, stand still etc.

Does this pigeonhole a monk or am I taking a narrow view? A fighter can certainly follow this same line of tactics, (with TWF feat chain, weapon training) and at a slighlty higher BAB. He is slightly less survivable vs magic and slighlty better at soaking.

I may be missing something but the above move up to a target and lock it down tactic is the only one glaring me in the face.

Cheers.


If you want to play a character who is good at all kinds (excluding magic) of combat, go with fighter. If you want to play a character who specialises in unarmed combat, go with monk. In pathfinder, a monk gets the same attack bonuses as a fighter of the same level dual wielding. The monk will do more damage out of this. On the other hand, a monk can be very good at hit and run tactics due to his greater speed. A fighter with the correct feats can also be good at those tactics, but won't move as quickly. The monk gets ki strike; the fighter simply gets to ignore up to 10 points of DR, regardless of what would normally be required to bypass said DR.

A fighter with a great sword and the correct feats and class features would probably do about the same damage on a full attack as a monk on average, due to being able to automatically confirm criticals and having 2d6+8 versus 2d10 (average 15 vs 11, lower minimum damage and equal maximum) and multiplying strength by 1.5 for a little extra damage.


Chris Parker wrote:

If you want to play a character who is good at all kinds (excluding magic) of combat, go with fighter. If you want to play a character who specialises in unarmed combat, go with monk. In pathfinder, a monk gets the same attack bonuses as a fighter of the same level dual wielding. The monk will do more damage out of this. On the other hand, a monk can be very good at hit and run tactics due to his greater speed. A fighter with the correct feats can also be good at those tactics, but won't move as quickly. The monk gets ki strike; the fighter simply gets to ignore up to 10 points of DR, regardless of what would normally be required to bypass said DR.

A fighter with a great sword and the correct feats and class features would probably do about the same damage on a full attack as a monk on average, due to being able to automatically confirm criticals and having 2d6+8 versus 2d10 (average 15 vs 11, lower minimum damage and equal maximum) and multiplying strength by 1.5 for a little extra damage.

A fighter will also have a superior BAB combined with lower costs for enchanting his weapons. Also need to include that a fighter can up his armor class more easily than a monk.

Finally a monk has several stats that are important to him which means his primary stats are generally going to be lower than the stats of a fighter. Basically a monk needs all the stats of a fighter plus wisdom.


The fighter will have more HP, which means the Monk does need to stay mobile to stay alive. He has to pick and choose when to stand still and deliver that Flurry.

The Monk has more skill points than the fighter and a wider variety of class skills. Acrobatics is almost a no-brainer, and with no ACP, a high speed, and the High Jump class ability, Monks can be bouncing all over the place in no time.

The Monk gains supernatural abilities from his Ki Pool that a Fighter can only mimic through the use of magical equipment.


Actually, STR isn't that important for a monk; I'd just give him weapon finesse at level 3 and have done with it. Then, the monk only has DEX, CON and WIS to worry about, compared with the fighter's STR, DEX (now worth raising beyond 12 due to armour training) and CON.


Chris Parker wrote:
Actually, STR isn't that important for a monk; I'd just give him weapon finesse at level 3 and have done with it. Then, the monk only has DEX, CON and WIS to worry about, compared with the fighter's STR, DEX (now worth raising beyond 12 due to armour training) and CON.

You can even pick it at first level since the +1 BAB requirement has been removed.


Oh? I didn't notice that. Even better.


I played a monk to 14th level and it was a blast.
Spring Attack is his friend. Don't worry too much about STR or WIS, put it into DEX and grab weapon finesse. If you want to be really nasty take a level of Shadowdancer for HIPS.


There are many ways to play a monk that are truly monstrous (they are a baby of mine), especially if you multiclass out a little bit to pick up a couple of fun abilities. First to all the people saying that Str doesn't matter and just pick up weapon finesse, while I see what you are trying to get at with cutting down the number of key abilities that you need, you are wrong. One of the wonderful things about the monk is the FOB which as has been stated multiple times is equivalent to a fighter with the 2-weap fighting chain, so you are getting quite a few attacks off at the end. Weapon finesse will allow you to sub your str for dex to hit but does nothing for you as far as bonus dmg goes. If I am going to be getting off 7 attacks a round I would like to make sure that all of those attacks count by adding something to each one such as my str mod. Also weapon finesse takes up a feat which could be better used on something else.

Now some fun things you can do with a monk, (of note don't take more than 4 levels in a class other than monk, so you can get the full number of attacks with your FOB) take a level or two of rogue to get a little sneak attack, you can sneak attack with your fists or you can also use shuriken to get it off (shuriken are monk weapons and therefore usable with FOB). If you have a kind and understanding gm, take your first level or 2 as a barbarian (I know alignment hopping, blah, blah, blah) and use the substitution level from the 3.5 book, complete champion that lets your sack your fast movement for pounce (it's lion totem I believe). This is a VERY fun and effective combo, because you get a better fast movement from the monk anyway. Basically you control the battlefield, by pouncing all over the place and getting in your flurry of blows in every round, great for getting at those bosses that like to hide behind a horde of critters (make sure your acrobatics is at level, and maybe even take skill focus so that you can tumble past enemies that are in your line of charge).

Do yourself a favor and pick up Medusa's Wrath, ESPECIALLY if you took at least 1 lvl of rogue, stunned opponents lose their dex to AC making them a viable to target of a sneak attack, and you get 2 extra attacks against them at your highest BAB, at 20th Lvl assuming you didn't take more than 4 lvls in a class other than monk that means you are getting off, 9 attacks a round, at at least 2d8+1d6 (or 2d6 if you took 3 lvls of rogue) and adding in your str mod to each of those attacks, a fighter simply cannot compete with that kind of dmg output. Oh as a side note, you can also take power attack to help out in the dmg department. Taking the critical focus feat chain doesn't hurt you at all either if you can spare the feats, at least to bleeding critical, and improved crit (unnarmed attacks) that gives you 9 chances to roll a 19-20 on a d20 in order to get 2d6 additional dmg/round in the form of bleed.

These are just some of the fun things that can be done with the monk, they are definitely a viable fighter alternative.


I've spent a fair amount of time comparing the fighter and monk as I'm looking at playing a monk in our new pathfinder campaign. My conclusion was that Paizo have done a good job balancing the classes - the differences are as much about flavour and style as anything else.

The damage output of the classes is remarkably similar. A fighter can match the monk for number of attacks (but has to commit to some dex spend) and weapon training keeps up nicely with the monk’s unarmed damage.

The biggest difference is in AC. The fighter is ahead all the way on this a monk has to commit a lot of gold to keep his ac in any decent state.

Something else I found interesting was where the advantage in combat manoeuvres lay. Monk’s get access to some cool feats without the prerequisites but unless you make the investment in Intelligence you’ll never get the greater versions and even then the cost is feat heavy.

A fighter on the other hand can actually rely on reach weapons to get to make some nice trips and sunder attempts without fear of an AoO although lunge evens this out a little later on anyway.

I want to see how the reliance on FOB plays out in-game as I suspect it will hurt a monk at higher level to stand toe-to-toe with some of the higher damage-output monsters and being sneaky and or mobile on the battlefield seriously impairs a monk’s ability to lay down damage. Having a tank in the party to soak up some attention I think will make a big difference.


You know a chart comparing Monk GP expenditure to fighter GP expenditure for per point of AC would be rather nice. Especially since I've noticed that our monk's and fighter's tend to spend the exact same amount and end up in the exact same places.


I'd say that a monk is about as strong in combat as a twf fighter.
I'd go for intuitive attack, using wis to attack instead of dexterity or strength and putting in it my best stat, while putting decent stats in str, con and if possible dex (with 25 point buy I'd go for wis 16->18, str 14, con 14, dex 14, int 12, cha 8, or int and cha 10 if you don't like to be socially retarded). Armor will be the same as a weapon finess monk (and you don't lose your wis to AC if flat footed) and stunning fist will become a useful asset even against brute and a trumph card against mages.
If you put, as you should, at least 13 in str you'll see that monk is the best class for power attacking, always using a 1:2 ratio on all of his attacks. You have decent chances to hit, since an amulet of mighty fist is really not much more expensive than two weapon.
Since bracer of armor are cheap too and go up to +8 a high wis monk with decent dex will have a fairly good armor class.
All this coupled with evasion, high saves, spell resistance and other useful abilities makes it at least as useful in combat as a twf fighter, even if in a slightly different way.

As for it being forced to flurry: it's true that he has to, but that's not so different from a fighter, since manouver are not that good due to high CMDs. Monks can instead count on stunning fist and its derivatives, so I'd say that it's not so different from other melee classes in this respect.


Monks are a favorite of mine too; they're like bards in that they're supposed to be useful in a variety of ways, but unlike bards, they're actually useful in a variety of ways. : P

But I do believe they are overpowered. A class that can come close to competing with Fighter in melee combat shouldn't be good at much else, yet monks are good at a variety of other things. This is a sign of trouble, to me.

For example, one thing not mentioned yet -- monks get access to much nicer skills and twice as many skill points. This may be less of an issue in Pathfinder than 3.5 since the skills chapter of the rulebook is much friendlier to fighters than it used to be, and also since multiclassing is softer.

The other other problem with monks is that they really shine when the player rolls well for ability scores. That fighter probably doesn't care about the third or fourth +2 as much as the monk does. This is a reason to prefer point-buy.

But, I haven't played Pathfinder much yet (we had our first session last night). It may turn out that those odd Fighter levels turn the tide.


T O wrote:
This may be less of an issue in Pathfinder than 3.5 since the skills chapter of the rulebook is much friendlier to fighters than it used to be, and also since multiclassing is softer

I haven't had a chance to read though the book yet, so maybe the answer to this question is obvious. What do you mean when you say multiclassing is "softer"?


At low levels, I'd bet on the fighter (better attack bonus, better weapon damage, armor is about the same).

At high levels, I'd bet against both of them. ;-) (Just kidding.)


Revil Fox wrote:
What do you mean when you say multiclassing is "softer"?

It's no longer possible to receive an experience penalty for multiclassing based on race, so for instance, a half-orc fighter can now take a level of rogue and not have to worry about it.


Why don't you pick up martial weapon at 1st level and use a Guisarme?
Monk w/ reach weapon: You can fight armed or unarmed while wielding a reach weapon using elbows, knees, feet or head.
Guisarme: 9 gp, 2d4 x3 — 10 lbs. S reach CRB
M1: stunning fist, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, Combat reflexes, martial weapon Guisarme, improved initiative. Use your reach and combat reflexes to trip opponents. you're armed (no attacks of opportunity) and you get +4 bonus for using 2 hand weapon. On the move, use bull rush to knock them prone (same pluses applies). then move in on your prone opponents and follow up with your weapon or FOB (whichever does more damage). If they move or try to get up you get free trip attacks to keep them down. If you get grappled, use stunning fist for release and retain your weapon.
M2 dodge
M3 power attack, use on your prone opponents.
M5 lighten weapon (prerequisite. don't worry about this yet)
M6 improved bull rush (more pluses for bull rushing)
M7 improved trip (ditto)
M9 improved evasion, greater bull rush gives you a free hit on prone opponents, good time to power attack.
M10 improved critical, apply to your Guisarme.
M11 Improved lighten weapon (a large Guisarme does 2d6 (3d6 if you use oversize and take -2. cheaper then power attacking) damage and your reach is 15-20ft(25-30ft oversize). for people 10 ft. or closer 5 ft. step, then weapon or FOB, whichever does more damage at the time.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Fighter vs Monk All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion