Deadly Aim = no throwing weapons anymore?


Rules Questions


According to the descreption, by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot you can add more dmg at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

.....

First of all, how is it possible to pinpoint a weak spot and still receive an attack penalty against the whole target?!
In a realistic way this is not right. I agree that maybe its right for a game system/rules.

Second, there is a feat in 3.5E named Brutal Throw i think which gives you the same bonus as the power attack feat. It is the PA version for the ranged weapons. But only for those ones tha use STR mod in dmg! We all know that if someone wants to play with thowing weapons he is also forced to select the quick drow feat plus every other basic feat for the ranged weapons. Brutal Throw gives a reason for those players that want to roleplay someone with flying daggers or axes instead of the standar composite long bow style.
But no more because of the change in the way that ranged weapons work. Now with Deadly Aim you can also use PA with bows or crossbows. No reason for throwing weapons.

Can you tell me if i am wrong. Otherwise i ll ban this feat from my campaign or try to use it somehow with a different way. NOT because its imba but because it cuts off the opportunities for different play styles. In general i hate to see my players to play with the same style because thats "the best build to win".
Maybe there are other ways - which i like to hear - for someone to play a weapon thrower using Pathfinder. Plz tell me.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Deadly Aim works with all ranged attacks.

As Throwing Weapons are ranged attack, the feat works with them.

Power Attack only works with melee attacks, so the feat would not work with bows and crossbows.


Gyftomancer wrote:


Second, there is a feat in 3.5E named Brutal Throw i think which gives you the same bonus as the power attack feat. It is the PA version for the ranged weapons.

Brutal throw lets you use Str on your attack roll rather than dex, Nice for giant skirmishers. It does not have a power attack bonus. Power throw (one feat later allows what you were thinking of).

However Brutal throw and Power Throw are both from "Complete Adventurer" which is NOT open content. Thus Pathfinder can not use them directly though you of course are able to.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Gyftomancer wrote:

According to the descreption, by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot you can add more dmg at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

.....

First of all, how is it possible to pinpoint a weak spot and still receive an attack penalty against the whole target?!
In a realistic way this is not right. I agree that maybe its right for a game system/rules.

The rational here is perfectly sensible, in order to deal the extra damage you have to precisely strike the foes weak point. It is harder to get a bullseye then it is to hit the target. Hence the penalty to hit.

Gyftomancer wrote:


Second, there is a feat in 3.5E named Brutal Throw i think which gives you the same bonus as the power attack feat. It is the PA version for the ranged weapons. But only for those ones tha use STR mod in dmg! We all know that if someone wants to play with thowing weapons he is also forced to select the quick drow feat plus every other basic feat for the ranged weapons. Brutal Throw gives a reason for those players that want to roleplay someone with flying daggers or axes instead of the standar composite long bow style.
But no more because of the change in the way that ranged weapons work. Now with Deadly Aim you can also use PA with bows or crossbows. No reason for throwing weapons.

Since brutal throw isn't SRD/Core this is a mechanic that is open necessarily to all tables, furthermore, deadly aim can be used with thrown weapons so it is open to all setups. One might argue that a thrown weapon could take advantage of both deadly aim and power attack, making the option more viable, not less.

Finally you probably don't need quick draw if the player purchases something like a masterwork bandoleer that I think allows drawing thrown weapons as a free action.

In my experience people who have character ideas they want to play will play them in spite of "optimal builds" while players who min/max are typically looking for a different kind of enjoyment in a game.


Mistwalker wrote:

Deadly Aim works with all ranged attacks.

As Throwing Weapons are ranged attack, the feat works with them.

Power Attack only works with melee attacks, so the feat would not work with bows and crossbows.

maybe you didnt read carefuly what i wrote


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gyftomancer wrote:
maybe you didnt read carefuly what i wrote

You are correct sir.

That will teach me to read and post on the forums before I have had my morning caffeine.

I think that there is a greater problem with thrown weapons. You can only carry so many of them, and even then, you look like a walking armory (at least at low levels).

In my game, we have houseruled that returning daggers return to the sheath that normally carries them, rather than the hand or ground in front of the thrower.

I seem to recall there being a magical sheath that would always have a dagger in it and when drawn, the dagger would last for 3 rounds before disappearing. That would be another option.

There is also the Pathfinder feat "Throw Anything" that would be very useful to a throwing character, and that could lead to a few amusing situations. I've had a player carry around a bag of nails and spikes.


Quote:
I think that there is a greater problem with thrown weapons. You can only carry so many of them, and even then, you look like a walking armory (at least at low levels).

That's the thing with thrown weapons - they're not meant to be things you stand way back and biff at the enemy for the whole fight. They're more like what the melee fighter attacks with before he's closed to melee range.

You're only going to throw one or two in the whole fight, and since (unlike ammunition) you can almost always recover thrown weapons afterwards (assuming you win), you don't need to carry dozens and dozens of axes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

1. If you are swinging for a particular part of the target, that vast majority of the time it is not going to be dead center of mass (The point which allows you to miss by the greatest amount and still hit the target.)

For example you are aiming at the stationary siloutte of a man. If you strike a point 6" from the center of the chest you still score a hit. If you were aiming for the center of the forehead, a 6" miss has an >75% chance of missing the entire target.

This comes down to instead of making the attack when you are most likely to score a hit, you limit yourself to a smaller attack window to attack a point which will inflict more damage.

2. The feat brutal throw doesn't resemble power attack. I am not aware of any feat in WotC 3.x literature that does give ranged attacks (thrown or otherwise) a power attack like feat.

.............

If you want to make thrown weapons viable. Take a page from 4th edition and make all magical thrown weapons return instantly as a free action so that a single magic weapon can fill the interative attacks for one hand. (If they want to use both hands they should need 2 magical weapons.)

If you take this route, you should also reduce crossbow reload times to free actions.


Personally, I am applying Deadly Aim only to crossbows and bows and not throwing weapons. For two reason:

1. I like a little bit of realism, and throwing weapons and shooting weapons should have some differences.

2. I don't like making obsolete material in my game, so in order for me to keep Power Throw, I need to chuck out Deadly Aim from being used for throwing weapons, too.


Deadly Aim is an untyped bonus. If you rule that Power Throw applies a bonus exactly the same as Power Attack, it is also untyped. Technically the two would stack as there is no notation otherwise. (unless I'm missing somewhere in Pathfinder where they changed it so that untyped bonuses no longer stack)

Grand Lodge

Gyftomancer wrote:
Now with Deadly Aim you can also use PA with bows or crossbows. No reason for throwing weapons.

Strong characters will always use thrown weapons over crossbows or bows.

a 10th level fighter with 16 str and 16 dex is going to have the following matrix:

Longbow +13/+8 (1d8)
Light Crossbow +13 (1d8)
Spear +13/+8 (1d8+3)

Regardless of deadly aim he will always do more damage with the spear but at a much reduced range. Now if your doing a dex based character with no strength bonus to damage then the bow crossbow is superior and thrown weapons don't become viable.

regarding Quickdraw, I cant see a problem with a thrown weapon specialist needing one extra feat to use his full attack action. In fact I would like to know who thought it would be okay to let a bowman draw an arrow, notch it, pull the string, aim, and fire his bow as a free action!... Personally bows are handled badly in D&D and I don't think they should be capable of making a full attack action without some sort of feat to achieve it.

As someone mentioned, thrown weapons are very short range and not designed to be used over and over but as part of getting close enough to enter melee with your opponent. Having said that, the game doesn't support the idea of staying on-top of someone who continually moves back to fire his bow or throw a weapon.

The problem is that the 5 ft. step lets a bow specialist move out of your threat range then pepper you with arrows at his full attack rate, this to me is unrealistic and particularly dangerous. to counter this I created an action as a house-rule called hound.

Hound: (Immediate Action) If during your opponents action he moved 5 ft. away from you, you can take a 5ft step towards that opponent as an immediate action. You cannot use this action if you have moved already this round and this movement counts as a 5ft. step against your normal movement this round. This movement threatens an attack of opportunity from the person you are Hounding if the person has reach. This movement takes place immediately after the hounded creatures movement but before any other actions the creature wishes to perform on its turn.

The intent of this action was to prevent opponents from using bows and reach weapons in close combat.


Quijenoth wrote:

a 10th level fighter with 16 str and 16 dex is going to have the following matrix:

Longbow +13/+8 (1d8)
Light Crossbow +13 (1d8)
Spear +13/+8 (1d8+3)

You missed one:

Composite Longbow +13/+8 (1d8+3)

The only reason to use throwing weapons past the first couple levels (when a composite longbow with a strength bonus is hard to come by) is stylistic.

Sovereign Court

Quijenoth wrote:

The problem is that the 5 ft. step lets a bow specialist move out of your threat range then pepper you with arrows at his full attack rate, this to me is unrealistic and particularly dangerous. to counter this I created an action as a house-rule called hound.

Hound: (Immediate Action) If during your opponents action he moved 5 ft. away from you, you can take a 5ft step towards that opponent as an immediate action. You cannot use this action if you have moved already this round and this movement counts as a 5ft. step against your normal movement this round. This movement threatens an attack of opportunity from the person you are Hounding if the person has reach. This movement takes place immediately after the hounded creatures movement but before any other actions the creature wishes to perform on its turn.

There is now a feat called Step Up that accomplishes much the same thing, though it requires a BAB of +1, there is no AoO and it counts towards your next round's movement or 5' step.


Maezer wrote:


I am not aware of any feat in WotC 3.x literature that does give ranged attacks (thrown or otherwise) a power attack like feat.

Power Throw (complete adventurer).


Zurai wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

a 10th level fighter with 16 str and 16 dex is going to have the following matrix:

Longbow +13/+8 (1d8)
Light Crossbow +13 (1d8)
Spear +13/+8 (1d8+3)

You missed one:

Composite Longbow +13/+8 (1d8+3)

The only reason to use throwing weapons past the first couple levels (when a composite longbow with a strength bonus is hard to come by) is stylistic.

True that. A frontline melee guy might throw weapons now and then, but overall, it's not as good as a bow.

But it looks SOOOO Cool! :) Quickdraw throwing axe, toss it and charge. That just drips with coolness!


Gyftomancer wrote:

First of all, how is it possible to pinpoint a weak spot and still receive an attack penalty against the whole target?!

In a realistic way this is not right. I agree that maybe its right for a game system/rules.

This feat is very logical!

You aim your shot at the opening between armor plates or the hole in the monsters carapace.
The shot becomes much harder, but you will have a chance at giving your foe a telling blow.


Zurai wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

a 10th level fighter with 16 str and 16 dex is going to have the following matrix:

Longbow +13/+8 (1d8)
Light Crossbow +13 (1d8)
Spear +13/+8 (1d8+3)

You missed one:

Composite Longbow +13/+8 (1d8+3)

The only reason to use throwing weapons past the first couple levels (when a composite longbow with a strength bonus is hard to come by) is stylistic.

Yah, and getting ahold of very many magic throwing weapons may be a trick as well. Fun idea but enchanting a single two-handed weapon or bow is so much more efficient in actual gameplay. Now perhaps a bandolier which enchanted normal daggers with flaming/vorpal etc. with duration of 1 round would help with that.

Throwing knives is a cool idea and a fun character concept, but would be quickly outclasses by a bow-melee guy

edit: now if you can get your DM to rule that returning puts the knife back in your hand immediately.. that's another story

Sovereign Court

Zurai wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

a 10th level fighter with 16 str and 16 dex is going to have the following matrix:

Longbow +13/+8 (1d8)
Light Crossbow +13 (1d8)
Spear +13/+8 (1d8+3)

You missed one:

Composite Longbow +13/+8 (1d8+3)

The only reason to use throwing weapons past the first couple levels (when a composite longbow with a strength bonus is hard to come by) is stylistic.

Players who frequently use spells or abilities to alter their strength might continue to use thrown weapons instead of composite bows, as the bow applies a penalty if the strength does not match, whether a higher number or lower. In all other situations, it remains the superior weapon for strong ranged fighters.


Ya know... Deadly Aim does work for throwing weapons, at least by my reading of the RAW. And what's nasty about that, is that it doesn't have the reduced damage clause for off-hand weapons and light weapons that power attack has. Ergo, while somebody dual-wielding daggers with power attack is only dishing out damage equal to the sacrificed attack bonus with each (same total bonus damage, assuming both hit, as somebody single-handing a rapier for example) somebody dual-throwing daggers with deadly aim is getting double the sacrificed amount (and, as a matter of course, twice as much bonus damage as a bow.)

When I first noticed it, I contemplated houseruling it, but then the realization of the issues with enchanting thrown weapons prevented that. Where the bow will be getting +X to attack and damage (piling on more damage and mitigating some if not all of the deadly aim cost), the thrown weapons get no such bonus, at best masterworked thrown weapons being affordable. (Alternatively you could use shuriken, which are affordable being thrown, but have even lower bonus damage dice AND lack the versatility to use in melee if you have to melee.)


It's fairly straightforward to use two (or however many arms you have...) returning + heavily enhanced throwing weapons for your primary attacks, and ordinary, masterwork, or low-enhanced (depending on your wealth) ones for your later iteratives.

Remember that unlike ammunition, thrown weapons do not break when you use them.


Jabor wrote:

It's fairly straightforward to use two (or however many arms you have...) returning + heavily enhanced throwing weapons for your primary attacks, and ordinary, masterwork, or low-enhanced (depending on your wealth) ones for your later iteratives.

Remember that unlike ammunition, thrown weapons do not break when you use them.

Well yeah, that is true, but even doing that

A: You have to pay twice as much to enhance them

and

B: you only get the benefit on your primary attacks rather than all your iteratives.

So it's still a lacking that I feel needs something extra to help boost.


Honestly, most of the time (especially if you're not a fast-BAB class), stuff beyond the second iterative is only going to hit on a 20 anyway. You go for the +1 enhancement, and then stack on +damage (or alternatively, if you have autoconfirmed crits, things like Vorpal).


Jabor wrote:
Honestly, most of the time (especially if you're not a fast-BAB class), stuff beyond the second iterative is only going to hit on a 20 anyway. You go for the +1 enhancement, and then stack on +damage (or alternatively, if you have autoconfirmed crits, things like Vorpal).

Honestly, I was thinking of the Fighters and Rangers when looking at this thread. Rogues have sneak attack and need all the attack bonus they can get, and monks and bards have their own things going on (Though in the monk's case I've houseruled that their unarmed damage applies to all 'monk weapons' so shuriken actually do something lol)

Oh, one little nitpick. Vorpal works on a natural 20, doesn't care about crits or if the natural 20 is confirmed. That's one item from (3.0 I think?) that people don't seem to remember in 3.5/PF half the time.


From the PRD:

Magic Items:Weapons:Vorpal wrote:
Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit)...


Jabor wrote:

From the PRD:

Magic Items:Weapons:Vorpal wrote:
Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit)...

*headdesk*

thanks Jabor. Guess I was wrong on that point (maybe it didn't require confirmation in 3.5, or maybe I just misread it, no big either way.)


I have a question. Could you throw a melee weapon at an adjacent opponent without provoking an AO?

Further, is there any advantage if you wanted to throw something at a nearby (not necessarily adjacent) opponent while hacking someone closer as part of your full attack? I'm thinking quickdraw would let you.

Liberty's Edge

If you want minmaxers to try for many different builts, you have to stick to as little rules (and possibilities) as possible. I would advise the PFRPG book rules and nothing else.

Is is the paradox well known to Magic players : the more expansions (ie options) you play with, the more concentrated the range of efficient builds.


Dave Young 992 wrote:
I have a question. Could you throw a melee weapon at an adjacent opponent without provoking an AO?

No. Even if you are throwing a melee weapon, it is still a ranged attack. Ranged attacks ALWAYS provoke attacks of opportunity. Even ranged spells cast with defensive casting.

Dave Young 992 wrote:
Further, is there any advantage if you wanted to throw something at a nearby (not necessarily adjacent) opponent while hacking someone closer as part of your full attack? I'm thinking quickdraw would let you.

You can easily do it, especially with quickdraw. But you still provoke attacks of opportunity from any enemy threatening you.


Warforged Gardener wrote:


Players who frequently use spells or abilities to alter their strength might continue to use thrown weapons instead of composite bows, as the bow applies a penalty if the strength does not match, whether a higher number or lower. In all other situations, it remains the superior weapon for strong ranged fighters.

Penalty with a strength bow is only if it is stronger then the character using it. A 20 strength character can use a 18 strength bow at no penalty. He will however only get +4 damage as compared to +5.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Jabor wrote:

From the PRD:

Magic Items:Weapons:Vorpal wrote:
Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit)...

*headdesk*

thanks Jabor. Guess I was wrong on that point (maybe it didn't require confirmation in 3.5, or maybe I just misread it, no big either way.)

Vorpal always neeeded a confirmation in 3.x.

Now in 3.0 it did not need a 20 just a critical which made vorpal keen scimitars very nasty (especially if wielded by a weaponmaster).


Ughbash wrote:
Warforged Gardener wrote:


Players who frequently use spells or abilities to alter their strength might continue to use thrown weapons instead of composite bows, as the bow applies a penalty if the strength does not match, whether a higher number or lower. In all other situations, it remains the superior weapon for strong ranged fighters.
Penalty with a strength bow is only if it is stronger then the character using it. A 20 strength character can use a 18 strength bow at no penalty. He will however only get +4 damage as compared to +5.

This. There's no penalty for being stronger than your bow.

There's also weapon enchantments you can get that automatically change the pull of the bow to match your strength if you really need it.

Dark Archive

Gyftomancer wrote:

First of all, how is it possible to pinpoint a weak spot and still receive an attack penalty against the whole target?!

In a realistic way this is not right. I agree that maybe its right for a game system/rules.

Basically, this feat grants you what was known as 'called shots' in AD&D, i.e. pinpointing weak spots that are *harder* to hit but yield more damage if you succeed.

As for your second point, as it was already pointed out, Brutal Throw et al. are not open content. I agree that it would be nice to have them as "official" PF RPG feats, but they'd need to be completely rewritten and renamed. Perhaps in the future? Furthermore, I understand that picking Quick Draw for your dagger-thrower is what someone might call a "feat tax", but I think the system is in balance, because bows and crossbows are 2-handed weapons which still inflict far less damage than 2-handed melee weapons (and require a string of feats as well). Most of the warrior-types I've played who used thrown weapons were melee experts anyway, and relied on ranged attacks typically only against fleeing enemies or when ambushing someone.


Zurai wrote:
This. There's no penalty for being stronger than your bow.

Except for not getting your whole strength mod on damage.


Jabor wrote:
Zurai wrote:
This. There's no penalty for being stronger than your bow.
Except for not getting your whole strength mod on damage.

That's not a penalty. A character with 20 strength gets exactly the same benefit from a +4 strength bow as one with 18 strength.


Zurai wrote:
Jabor wrote:
Zurai wrote:
This. There's no penalty for being stronger than your bow.
Except for not getting your whole strength mod on damage.
That's not a penalty. A character with 20 strength gets exactly the same benefit from a +4 strength bow as one with 18 strength.

Compare a +4 Strength bow with any melee weapon.

A 20 Strength character gets a lesser bonus with the bow than with the sword.


Zurai wrote:


There's also weapon enchantments you can get that automatically change the pull of the bow to match your strength if you really need it.

While I have seen some bows that have that trait, I have never offically seen the enhancement that adds that.

Do you happen to know where it is?


Jabor wrote:

Compare a +4 Strength bow with any melee weapon.

A 20 Strength character gets a lesser bonus with the bow than with the sword.

What's your point? You're comparing apples to salmon.

Ughbash wrote:

While I have seen some bows that have that trait, I have never offically seen the enhancement that adds that.

Do you happen to know where it is?

Magic Item Compendium. I believe it's called "Sizing", but I may be misremembering the name.


Zurai wrote:
Jabor wrote:

Compare a +4 Strength bow with any melee weapon.

A 20 Strength character gets a lesser bonus with the bow than with the sword.

What's your point? You're comparing apples to salmon.

Ughbash wrote:

While I have seen some bows that have that trait, I have never offically seen the enhancement that adds that.

Do you happen to know where it is?

Magic Item Compendium. I believe it's called "Sizing", but I may be misremembering the name.

Sizing changed the size category, so you could make it a Huge Composite longbow. It would not make it match your strength.

There is a bow in Epic which has this property "Elven Greatbow" (though it does not say what enchantment gives it). And Hank's bow from the D&D cartoon had this property and again did not name a specific enchantment.

To the best of my knowledge it does not exist as an enchantment in any of the books, and could only be done as an "ad hoc" modifier.

Grand Lodge

zylphryx wrote:
There is now a feat called Step Up that accomplishes much the same thing, though it requires a BAB of +1, there is no AoO and it counts towards your next round's movement or 5' step.

I may stick to the feat for a couple of pathfinder games (I want to run pathfinder 100% full rules before applying my 3.5 houserules) But I can see me modifying this Step Up feat to enhance my houserule. While Step Up is a nice feat and shows I'm not the only one whose had this problem before it doesn't strike me as something that should cost a feat to learn.

I'm thinking perhaps step up would maybe allow the use of the hound action a number of times per round equal to your dexterity modifier perhaps (adding in a pre-req of Dex 13 to the feat) kind of like how combat reflexes works with attacks of opportunities.

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