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Do Fast Healing and Regeneration stack? I can see some very nasty monsters coming up in the future if they do...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Draeke Raefel wrote:
Do Fast Healing and Regeneration stack? I can see some very nasty monsters coming up in the future if they do...

They do not stack. They overlap.

They do different things, though. A Monster that regenerates AND has fast healing would be VERY difficult to kill, since having both would "block" the clauses in each that allow a monster to die from damage.

Basically, a monster that has both fast healing and regeneration would function like the tarrasque, in that it would have regeneration that has no way to neutralize through the application of specific types of damage. And as such, it's better to design such a monster not by giving it both fast healing and regeneration but by simply giving it regeneration without any neutralizing damage types. A monster like this would have to be defeated by other methods, like flesh to stone or death effects or the like.

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012

Just got mine today. It looks beyootiful!


Oh man. Amazon has moved the date back up, but still nothing. Lucky d- er, badger.


James Jacobs wrote:

What Ross said. A regenerating creature at deep negative hit points only dies if its regeneration is stopped for that round through the application of a type of damage that suppresses its regeneration. Usually fire or acid does the trick.

What that DOES mean is that a troll CAN regenerate fire or acid damage. It just doesn't regenerate ANY damage on the round after it takes any fire damage.

We made these changes because the 3.5 method was simply too complex; it essentially meant keeping track of two different hit point totals for each regenerating monster. With the new method, it's a lot easier. You just do damage as normal and every round the monster regenerates the listed amount UNLESS the previous round it took damage that suppressed its regeneration.

Fast healing works better than regeneration while the monster's alive, since it doesn't get suppressed ever. But fast healing immediately stops once a monster's reduced to enough negative hit points that it dies. That's not the case for a creature that regenerates; as long as it's regeneration isn't negated while it's at enough negative hit points to die, it keeps healing until it stands up again once it's out of the negative hit points.

That was a good idea.


totoro wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

What Ross said. A regenerating creature at deep negative hit points only dies if its regeneration is stopped for that round through the application of a type of damage that suppresses its regeneration. Usually fire or acid does the trick.

What that DOES mean is that a troll CAN regenerate fire or acid damage. It just doesn't regenerate ANY damage on the round after it takes any fire damage.

We made these changes because the 3.5 method was simply too complex; it essentially meant keeping track of two different hit point totals for each regenerating monster. With the new method, it's a lot easier. You just do damage as normal and every round the monster regenerates the listed amount UNLESS the previous round it took damage that suppressed its regeneration.

Fast healing works better than regeneration while the monster's alive, since it doesn't get suppressed ever. But fast healing immediately stops once a monster's reduced to enough negative hit points that it dies. That's not the case for a creature that regenerates; as long as it's regeneration isn't negated while it's at enough negative hit points to die, it keeps healing until it stands up again once it's out of the negative hit points.

That was a good idea.

I'm sure it has it's uses, but it's irritating to me, because that means that for anybody with access to fire or acid (Hello... acid splash at will...) can completely nix the Troll's ability to recover HP during the course of a fight.

It would be better, in my mind, to just state that Trolls can only be killed by fire or acid, but accumulate damage and get knocked out normally. In that way, they don't lose their 'fast healing' so to speak just by getting hit with fire or acid, but they are finished off quickly by somebody with the right gear.

(As it stands now a flaming sword is pretty much a Troll Killer, the thing will never recover any HP in that fight at all, which notably reduces the Troll's danger level)


James Jacobs wrote:

What Ross said. A regenerating creature at deep negative hit points only dies if its regeneration is stopped for that round through the application of a type of damage that suppresses its regeneration. Usually fire or acid does the trick.

What that DOES mean is that a troll CAN regenerate fire or acid damage. It just doesn't regenerate ANY damage on the round after it takes any fire damage.

We made these changes because the 3.5 method was simply too complex; it essentially meant keeping track of two different hit point totals for each regenerating monster. With the new method, it's a lot easier. You just do damage as normal and every round the monster regenerates the listed amount UNLESS the previous round it took damage that suppressed its regeneration.

Fast healing works better than regeneration while the monster's alive, since it doesn't get suppressed ever. But fast healing immediately stops once a monster's reduced to enough negative hit points that it dies. That's not the case for a creature that regenerates; as long as it's regeneration isn't negated while it's at enough negative hit points to die, it keeps healing until it stands up again once it's out of the negative hit points.

OK. But I still don't understand.

Are damage that are neither fire nor acid leathal?
Can a rouge use Bleeding Attack an a troll? If the damage isn't leathal he can't use it right?
Is Ross correct in: "A troll at -30 HP is not dead as long as its regeneration is functioning. If it takes any fire or acid damage, however, its regeneration is supressed for a round. It will immediately die."

The changes are probably good I just don't understand some of them.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

[...]It would be better, in my mind, to just state that Trolls can only be killed by fire or acid, but accumulate damage and get knocked out normally. In that way, they don't lose their 'fast healing' so to speak just by getting hit with fire or acid, but they are finished off quickly by somebody with the right gear.

(As it stands now a flaming sword is pretty much a Troll Killer, the thing will never recover any HP in that fight at all, which notably reduces the Troll's danger level)

Agree. That was my point.

A fix could have been, If you apply fire or acid to a regenerating creature at deep negative hit points it dies.
Anyway. The new rules are here and they won't can them. I just want to understand them.
And yes. A flaming sword is a troll killer. We have a paladin. We've tried it. Trolls are no probelm anymore, neighter are undeads.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

James Jacobs wrote:
A Monster that regenerates AND has fast healing would be VERY difficult to kill, since having both would "block" the clauses in each that allow a monster to die from damage.

I don't think it's as bad as that.

If a creature with both fast healing and regeneration has its regeneration blocked, it functions the same as a creature with fast healing only. A creature with fast healing only dies normally when its hit points are sufficiently negative. So to kill the creature, just knock it into the far negatives and block its regeneration. Fast healing does nothing to prevent death from hit point loss, so the creature then dies.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Zark wrote:
OK. But I still don't understand.

I think I have a good grasp of it and will attempt to explain it in a different way than James.

Zark wrote:
Are damage that are neither fire nor acid leathal?

This is no different than with any other creature. So, all damage done with weapons to regenerating creatures is lethal. Regenerating creatures regenerate some damage every round, unless their specific weakness is applied to them (acid and/or fire for a troll), in which case, the next round only, they do not regenerate any damage - however, the round following that, their regeneration restarts - unless neutralized again)

Zark wrote:
Can a rouge use Bleeding Attack an a troll?

Unless the troll is not regenerating, then I would say that the bleed damage does not happen. Bleed damage is cancelled if the target is healed or passes a heal check. I would say that regeneration (and fast healing) would count as being healed.

Zark wrote:
If the damage isn't leathal he can't use it right?

Again, I would treat it just like damage applied to any other creature. So, the regeneration will heal x amount of lethal damage as well as the same amount of non-lethal damage.

Zark wrote:
Is Ross correct in: "A troll at -30 HP is not dead as long as its regeneration is functioning. If it takes any fire or acid damage, however, its regeneration is supressed for a round. It will immediately die."

Yes, Ross is correct. I believe that James also confirmed that in his post.

I think that part of the the problem that you are having is that you are keeping in mind the 3.0/3.5 rules for regenerating creatures in mind (the non-lethal vs lethal damage), when you need to set them aside and only take into consideration the new rules on regenerating and fast healing creatures.

Hope that helps.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I'm sure it has it's uses, but it's irritating to me, because that means that for anybody with access to fire or acid (Hello... acid splash at will...) can completely nix the Troll's ability to recover HP during the course of a fight.

If you are fighting trolls (or other regenerating creatures) and the best spell available is acid splash, then either you are fighting creatures that are a wee bit too tough for your level, or you are in the deep end and can use all the help that you can get. :)

kyrt-ryder wrote:
(As it stands now a flaming sword is pretty much a Troll Killer, the thing will never recover any HP in that fight at all, which notably reduces the Troll's danger level)

Hmm, wasn't that always the case?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Traditionally, only elves have been immune to ghoul paralysis. But it does look like the current wording for "elf blood" would extend to half-elves. And since "elf blood" IS more of a disadvantage than an advantage since very few "elf only" items or effects exist (doesn't the Oathbow do something special for elves? Can't remember...) it's cool if this does give half-elves a benefit.

So yeah, upon further reflection, I'd say that half-elves are fine and immune to ghoul paralysis.

Moments like this are why I love the Paizo-community, even the developers can be swayed with rational discussion. Now to throw a pack of ghouls at my players so my half-elves can shine! ^_^


Mistwalker wrote:
Zark wrote:
Can a rouge use Bleeding Attack an a troll?

Unless the troll is not regenerating, then I would say that the bleed damage does not happen. Bleed damage is cancelled if the target is healed or passes a heal check. I would say that regeneration (and fast healing) would count as being healed.

Zark wrote:
If the damage isn't leathal he can't use it right?

Again, I would treat it just like damage applied to any other creature. So, the regeneration will heal x amount of lethal damage as well as the same amount of non-lethal damage.

Thanks for the answers. Some more question to see if I got it right.

A rogue can sneak atack a troll using a dagger and the damage is lethal but he can't use the bleeding attack if the troll is regenerating.
If the regeneration is cancelled he can use the bleeding attack.
The only non-lethal damage is from a sap etc. So the troll would not regenerat the sneak attack damage as non-lethal damage if the attack was made by a dagger, short sword, etc.
The regeneration will NOT heal x amount of fire/acid damage as well as the same amount of lethal damage from the sneak attack.
The sneak atack damage is lethal so is the fire/acid damage. The only difference is that fire and acid damage supress the regeneration for a round.
Have I got it right?
Sorry for the roundabout way to ask my question.


Mistwalker wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I'm sure it has it's uses, but it's irritating to me, because that means that for anybody with access to fire or acid (Hello... acid splash at will...) can completely nix the Troll's ability to recover HP during the course of a fight.

If you are fighting trolls (or other regenerating creatures) and the best spell available is acid splash, then either you are fighting creatures that are a wee bit too tough for your level, or you are in the deep end and can use all the help that you can get. :)

kyrt-ryder wrote:
(As it stands now a flaming sword is pretty much a Troll Killer, the thing will never recover any HP in that fight at all, which notably reduces the Troll's danger level)
Hmm, wasn't that always the case?

The point I was making concerning acid splash, is that there is never ever going to be a round in which the Troll ACTUALLY HEALS, because even if the mage doesn't have a bigger gun (Or if he has one Acid Arrow >.>) he will never get any healing and die alot faster than he did in 3.5.

A flaming sword did kill a troll a little faster than other methods (ala knocking the thing out and building a funeral pyre for it) but the troll still got to heal off a chunk of the normal damage each turn.

Sovereign Court

Ok. Not at low levels, but sooner or later, what happens when you throw 5 trolls at your party? Can that mage acid splash them ALL every round? no, just one troll per round can be acid splashed.

If he wants to do acid/fire damage to multiple trolls each round, he needs to go to fireball, acid storm, scorching ray, etc. meaning he is expending some resources, and it's all good; DM goal achieved (and if he's a wizard, it is doubtful his head will be completely filled with such spells, meaning the wizard now needs to draw some wands or wave some staves about...)


Zark wrote:

Thanks for the answers. Some more question to see if I got it right.

A rogue can sneak atack a troll using a dagger and the damage is lethal but he can't use the bleeding attack if the troll is regenerating.
If the regeneration is cancelled he can use the bleeding attack.
The only non-lethal damage is from a sap etc. So the troll would not regenerat the sneak attack damage as non-lethal damage if the attack was made by a dagger, short sword, etc.
The regeneration will NOT heal x amount of fire/acid damage as well as the same amount of lethal damage from the sneak attack.
The sneak atack damage is lethal so is the fire/acid damage. The only difference is that fire and acid damage supress the regeneration for a round.
Have I got it right?
Sorry for the roundabout way to ask my question.

Ok, maybe an example will help?

Sneaky Steve the Rogue and Fantastic Fred the Fighter are both fighting a troll (50hps).

Fred charges the troll and hits him with his axe for 15 pts of damage (Troll at 35)

Steve flanks the troll and sneak attacks for 10 pts of damage (Troll at 25)

Troll bashes Fred for 20 pts of damage.
End of Round : Troll regenerates back up to 30 hps.

Fred attacks twice, but misses once, and does 10pts of damage (Troll at 20 hps)

Steve takes a full action to pull out a bottle of oil and toss it on the Troll. Troll gets Attack of Opportunity, does 15 pts.

Troll attacks Steve, does 15 pts (Steve doesn't look good).
End of Round : Troll regenerates back up to 25 hps.

Fred attacks troll again, does 10 pts of damage (Troll at 15).

Steve uses flint and steel to make a spark, lights oil on troll. Does 8 pts of fire damage. Troll loses regeneration this round because of fire. Troll Attack of Opportunities Steve, does 10 pts of damage, Steve hits the ground with 0 hitpoints.

Troll attacks Fred, does 10 hps (Fred's not looking good).
End of Turn : NO REGEN FOR TROLL, he got burnt by fire.

Fred attacks troll, does 10 points of damage. (Troll at 5)

Fire burns troll on Steve's init, does 6 pts, Troll collapses at -1 hps. Fire goes out.

End of Turn : NO REGEN FOR TROLL, he got burnt by fire again.

Fred chops on troll for entire turn, does 30 hps of damage, troll goes to -31 hps.

Steve quaffs a heal potion (last round was finding it in his backpack). Steve regains 8 hps.

End of Turn : TROLL GETS REGEN, no fire this round, troll at -26.

Fred and Steve chop up troll until he is kibble, -500 hps. Then they run. 30 minutes later, troll stands up, roars in frustration, and then goes hunting them.

If at any point when he was at -20+ (20 con) they had burned his remains or tossed acid on them, troll would have died. Otherwise, he regens until he wakes back up. If you do non-lethal damage to the troll, it stacks on top of his hp damage to determine when he goes unconscious. His body will regen the lethal damage first, then the non-lethal. If you did 40 lethal points and 30 non-lethal to the troll from above, he'd be at -20, but putting fire on him wouldn't kill him then, because 20 points of that damage was non-lethal. You'd have to get him to a total of 70 lethal damage to him and then burn/acid him to kill him.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
The point I was making concerning acid splash, is that there is never ever going to be a round in which the Troll ACTUALLY HEALS, because even if the mage doesn't have a bigger gun (Or if he has one Acid Arrow >.>) he will never get any healing and die alot faster than he did in 3.5.

You are assuming that there is only 1 troll. And that every acid splash is going to hit. And that the troll(s) will not spend every effort to take out the caster.

I think that it just different than what is was before and that monster tactics will have to change.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
A flaming sword did kill a troll a little faster than other methods (ala knocking the thing out and building a funeral pyre for it) but the troll still got to heal off a chunk of the normal damage each turn.

This is true but not to a large extent. One thing to remember is that now the troll heals fire damage at a fast rate, so if it runs away for a minute or two (or moves back behind it's friends), it will be back up to full in no time, where as before it took either magic or days to heal up that fire/acid damage.

Zark, I'm late for a meeting and will have to answer you later today (if no one else does in the meantime.


As I should have expected, my Bestiary will arrive last. I could kick the people at amazon in the face right now. My people are pestering me about when we will finally start playing.

I would have thought they would learn from their first mess-up with the core book. But no, why learn when nobody burned down your house for the first time you screwed up royally?


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ok. Not at low levels, but sooner or later, what happens when you throw 5 trolls at your party? Can that mage acid splash them ALL every round? no, just one troll per round can be acid splashed.

What happened in 3.5 when you threw 5 trolls at his party? Was it easier then? I say no.

1 troll or 5 trolls. It's still easier now because the one troll you do acid splash won't regen.
If you only had acid splash and met 5 trolls you were in trouble in 3.5.
And now, if you only have acid splash and meet 5 trolls you will be in trouble too, but it will be much easier.
Agree the game will flow easier now, but it's still a nerf.
I'm not saying that trolls now are useless/broken, but they are nerfed.
Edit:
But perhaps Mistwalker is correct: "it just different than what is was before and that monster tactics will have to change."


Mistwalker wrote:
Zark, I'm late for a meeting and will have to answer you later today (if no one else does in the meantime.

OK. Cool. mdt tried to explain it to me, but to much text (Thanx for the attempt MDT). I got confused. See you soon. :-)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

To the folks concerned about acid splash at will, I'd like to point out that if you've reduced the mage to casting a cantrip every round, you are significantly reducing the party's effectiveness, which means regeneration is doing its job.

(In contrast, the party comes out more ahead in the mage can deal (or help someone else in the party deal) 5 + 1d3 damage every round.)

Once combat is over and the troll is unconcious, I'd much rather have the mage be able to put it out of its misery with a single acid spash than painstakingly dissolve it with 200 separate castings.


Ross Byers wrote:
To the folks concerned about acid splash at will, I'd like to point out that if you've reduced the mage to casting a cantrip every round, you are significantly reducing the party's effectiveness, [...]

A wizard with Acid splash at will is better than a wizard with no spells at all.

Acid splash is just an example. There are of obviously other options. Fireball, Flamstrike, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, flame blade, Produce Flame, Flaming weapons, etc.
And a dagger in 3.5 only did non-leathal damage. Now all damage is leathal...unless you use a sap ;-)


Ross Byers wrote:

To the folks concerned about acid splash at will, I'd like to point out that if you've reduced the mage to casting a cantrip every round, you are significantly reducing the party's effectiveness, which means regeneration is doing its job.

(In contrast, the party comes out more ahead in the mage can deal (or help someone else in the party deal) 5 + 1d3 damage every round.)

Once combat is over and the troll is unconcious, I'd much rather have the mage be able to put it out of its misery with a single acid spash than painstakingly dissolve it with 200 separate castings.

I couldn't agree with the bolded text more.

My complaint is the part where the troll never actually regenerates.

Acid splash was a token example, there are alot of other options (including the aforementioned flaming sword, the Acid Arrow spell, etc etc.)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

To be honest, I like that a flaming sword shuts down a troll. Under the old rules, the fact that your sword was Flaming didn't really matter unless the troll retreated long enough to heal up. If the sword was Frost instead, it would have dealt the same damage, and the troll would have regenerated just as much health (since it can regenerate the sword part). The difference doesn't really matter until its unconcious and coup-de-grace time comes. Even though, in theory, trolls are supposed to be weak against fire.

I like that the new mechanics make fire and acid the right attacks to actually fight trolls, instead of just to finish them off.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Zark wrote:

OK. But I still don't understand.

Are damage that are neither fire nor acid leathal?

Leathal/nonlethal doesn't enter into the scene for regeneration. That's an artifact from 3rd edition. Clinging to it just causes unnecessary confusion.

Zark wrote:
Can a rouge use Bleeding Attack an a troll? If the damage isn't leathal he can't use it right?

Bleeding functions until a healing effect cures the damage. As a result, bleed damage would end as soon the regeneration kicks in. Bleed is not an effective method of fighting regenerators as a result.

Zark wrote:
Is Ross correct in: "A troll at -30 HP is not dead as long as its regeneration is functioning. If it takes any fire or acid damage, however, its regeneration is supressed for a round. It will immediately die."

Ross is correct... assuming the troll has a Constitution of 30 or lower (and thus would normally die at –30 hp). If a troll in this situation has his regeneration negated, he dies. Otherwise, he continues to regenerate.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ross Byers wrote:
I like that the new mechanics make fire and acid the right attacks to actually fight trolls, instead of just to finish them off.

And I like the fact that you don't have to keep track of two different types of hit points for every troll, so if the PCs fail to defeat one and come back the next day, it's regenerated ALL of its damage, not just the non-fire, non-acid damage.

It's easier all around, trust me.

And trolls are still scary.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Example: You have a rogue and a troll in combat. The rogue's player has played 3.x and assumes he knows what to do with a troll. He learns as he goes.

Rogue - I sneak attack the Troll with a dagger and I bleed him.
Troll - I take damage, I heal some and I am not bleeding. I hit you back.
Rogue - I hide and sneak attack the Troll with a bottle of acid and I bleed him.
Troll - I take damage, do not heal any and I am bleeding. I hit you back.
Rogue - I hide again, decide to save my last acid for later, sneak attack the Troll with a dagger and I bleed him.
Troll - I take damage, heal some again and I am no longer bleeding. I hit you back.
Rogue - I yank off my largest fireball from my necklace and toss it down the troll's throat. I miss, but it goes off infront of his face.
Troll - OUCH!!! And falls over. He hasn't hit full negative con yet, but he is out cold. No regeneration for the troll.
Rogue - I kick him. I do sneak attack with that; he's prone and helpless.
Troll - He regenerates some damage.
Rogue - Oh crap. Rogue pulls out his last bottle of acid and sneak attacks the troll's exposed, still-beating heart.
Troll - Ok, I'm dead already. Enough. Stop please.


James Jacobs wrote:
stuff

Thanks for the answers. I get it now :-)

James Jacobs wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
I like that the new mechanics make fire and acid the right attacks to actually fight trolls, instead of just to finish them off.

And I like the fact that you don't have to keep track of two different types of hit points for every troll, so if the PCs fail to defeat one and come back the next day, it's regenerated ALL of its damage, not just the non-fire, non-acid damage.

It's easier all around, trust me.

Good points. Thanx for a great book/PDF.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:

Example: You have a rogue and a troll in combat. The rogue's player has played 3.x and assumes he knows what to do with a troll. He learns as he goes.

Rogue - I sneak attack the Troll with a dagger and I bleed him.
Troll - I take damage, I heal some and I am not bleeding. I hit you back.
Rogue - I hide and sneak attack the Troll with a bottle of acid and I bleed him.
Troll - I take damage, do not heal any and I am bleeding. I hit you back.
Rogue - I hide again, decide to save my last acid for later, sneak attack the Troll with a dagger and I bleed him.
Troll - I take damage, heal some again and I am no longer bleeding. I hit you back.
Rogue - I yank off my largest fireball from my necklace and toss it down the troll's throat. I miss, but it goes off infront of his face.
Troll - OUCH!!! And falls over. He hasn't hit full negative con yet, but he is out cold. No regeneration for the troll.
Rogue - I kick him. I do sneak attack with that; he's prone and helpless.
Troll - He regenerates some damage.
Rogue - Oh crap. Rogue pulls out his last bottle of acid and sneak attacks the troll's exposed, still-beating heart.
Troll - Ok, I'm dead already. Enough. Stop please.

Sorry to give you some bad news about this.

PRD wrote:
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

pres man wrote:

Sorry to give you some bad news about this.

PRD wrote:
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).

See! Case in point. Trolls are broken.

Sovereign Court

William Sinclair wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Sadly, my suspicions are correct. The noble hippogriff has been excluded from the Bestiary, and isn't even in the Bonus Bestiary. It's a travesty! I love the hippogriff as a monster, and I'm saddened to see it not there. To quote Movies in 15 Minutes: "OMGWTF Horseybird?!!"
In time, the horseybird may soar yet again!
But we'll never see the mighty beholder, the sly mindflayer, or the creepy carrior crawler...

I am saddened by the loss of eyeball monster and squidface, but I suspect people will warm to the little brain with legs that crawls inside your head and takes over your best friends...that's kinda scarier.


pres man wrote:

Sorry to give you some bad news about this.

PRD wrote:
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).

That's odd. I think I saw a post by Jason (or was it james or someone else?) saying you can sneak atack using touch spells,ranged touch spells and rays. Perhaps acid splash wasn't mentioned, but In think it was.

Is acid splash considered a splash weapon or a spell? Does Anyone know?

Jon Brazer Enterprises

pres man wrote:
Sorry to give you some bad news about this.

Oops, well I meant it to be more an example of how shutting off regen works. Missed that detail. Thank you.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I like the new regeneration rules; also they allow you to have undead with regeneration, which would have been a little unfair in 3.5. :)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Zark wrote:
pres man wrote:

Sorry to give you some bad news about this.

PRD wrote:
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).

That's odd. I think I saw a post by Jason (or was it james or someone else?) saying you can sneak atack using touch spells,ranged touch spells and rays. Perhaps acid splash wasn't mentioned, but In think it was.

Is acid splash considered a splash weapon or a spell? Does Anyone know?

Acid splash is a touch attack provided by a spell. A multiclassed rogue/wizard (or Arcane Trickster) would be able to sneak attack with it.

pres man was referring to a rogue throwing flasks of acid or alchemists' fire, which are splash weapons.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

So... anyone with Catch-off-guard and a torch... is a troll killer.

Catch-off-guard makes you proficient with improvised weapons. A torch is a one-handed improvised weapon that deals damage as a gauntlet of its size.

You could deal 1d3 (medium torch) + STR and 1/2 damage + 1 fire if you just two-handed a torch.

or

Use two-weapon fighting + Catch-off-guard and Double Slash with a torch and another weapon... say a dagger as a light weapon.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Lokie wrote:

So... anyone with Catch-off-guard and a torch... is a troll killer.

Catch-off-guard makes you proficient with improvised weapons. A torch is a one-handed improvised weapon that deals damage as a gauntlet of its size.

You could deal 1d3 (medium torch) + STR and 1/2 damage + 1 fire if you just two-handed a torch.

or

Use two-weapon fighting + Catch-off-guard and Double Slash with a torch and another weapon... say a dagger as a light weapon.

Well, Troll + cracked out CMB for sundering = bye bye torch, no more 'troll-killer' and shortly there after, human flesh for lunch.


Zaister wrote:
[...] they allow you to have undead with regeneration, which would have been a little unfair in 3.5. :)

No, the new rules don't allow undead with regeneration. Page 303 Bestiary:

"A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability."


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Lokie wrote:

So... anyone with Catch-off-guard and a torch... is a troll killer.

Catch-off-guard makes you proficient with improvised weapons. A torch is a one-handed improvised weapon that deals damage as a gauntlet of its size.

You could deal 1d3 (medium torch) + STR and 1/2 damage + 1 fire if you just two-handed a torch.

or

Use two-weapon fighting + Catch-off-guard and Double Slash with a torch and another weapon... say a dagger as a light weapon.

Well, Troll + cracked out CMB for sundering = bye bye torch, no more 'troll-killer' and shortly there after, human flesh for lunch.

Well, drawing a weapon does not provoke, so pull out another torch. (A serious troll hunter would have several tucked in a handy location) They are only 1cp and 1gp gets you 100! Also, sundering the torch is not automatically going to put it out, so just light the new torch from the stump of the old one or another party members.

Plus... honestly... I'd rather the troll waste an action sundering the torch than hitting me! :)

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