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I apologize if this has been covered before, but I'm trying to figure out why rapiers are considered light weapons for the purposes of Weapon Finesse but aren't actually light weapons. Given that they have the same weight as most light weapons, similar damage, and seem downright weird if wielded in a Power Attack, I'm not sure what justification, if any, leaves them in the heavier weapon category. Aside from the Power Attack strangeness, a rapier wielded in the off-hand yields a higher penalty than a shortsword...which seems counter-intuitive. So counterintuitive, in fact, that I've been treating it as a light weapon for the purpose of Two-Weapon Fighting for years and only just realized the mistake.
The last reason why the whole thing has me scratching my head...wielding a rapier two-handed. By the rules, can you actually do it? Isn't it a little...well...hard to picture?
What's the deal with this? Why is the rapier on a list of exceptions to the rules instead of just being on the list of light weapons?
You can't use a rapier in your off-hand without a bigger penalty. Presumably because it's too long.
If you want to make rapiers light weapons, go right ahead. :-)
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Balance reasons, mostly. If the rapier were a light weapon, no one would use the dagger. Better stats all around. Look at other weapons. Bastard sword requires a feat to use it one-handed. If you could use it one-handed normally, no one would use longswords.
Wouldn't that be true of daggers and shortswords already? I think the reason daggers still have a niche has more to do with their versatility. They can be thrown, pierce, or slash, while the shortsword just looks like a longsword, only shorter.
What's the deal with this? Why is the rapier on a list of exceptions to the rules instead of just being on the list of light weapons?
Though light and slender the rapier is a long blade. It is a primary weapon for fencing, unlike the main-gauche (dagger) which mainly is used for parrying and trapping an opponents blade. Therefore it is too unwieldy for a off hand/light weapon.
Also if you look at the stats it is far supperior to any non-exotic light weapon.
Balance reasons, mostly. If the rapier were a light weapon, no one would use the dagger. Better stats all around. Look at other weapons. Bastard sword requires a feat to use it one-handed. If you could use it one-handed normally, no one would use longswords.Wouldn't that be true of daggers and shortswords already? I think the reason daggers still have a niche has more to do with their versatility. They can be thrown, pierce, or slash, while the shortsword just looks like a longsword, only shorter.
Daggers are also simple weapons, thus easier to learn how to use.
Rapiers were a good deal longer and would be more difficult to use then a short sword in an off hand I suppose.
I do fully agree that using power attack with a rapier seems strange and if the person was using weapon finesse to us the weapon I would probably house rule they can't also power attack with it any time they are using dex and not strength to hit.
And don't incur extra penalties like a longsword in the offhand would. Weapon stats are all too similar to really differ enough to matter anyway.
I would have to disagree with that.
Weapon stats mostly follow a pattern. The different aspects of the stats are ballanced against one another and are worked into the ballance of feats as well.
If you make rapiers light weapons you are basically giving its wielder a feat for free.
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You can't use a rapier in your off-hand without a bigger penalty. Presumably because it's too long.
If you want to make rapiers light weapons, go right ahead. :-)
Well, if I want to houserule it, I can. But I was hoping for something a little more official. The length of the blade explanation makes a little sense, but it's sort of arbitrary. Sickles are light weapons and that seems like it would be an awkward thing to dual-wield(and the Pathfinder picture of the kukri looks like a wider, marginally smaller scimitar, but that could just be the art).
Balance reasons, mostly. If the rapier were a light weapon, no one would use the dagger. Better stats all around. Look at other weapons. Bastard sword requires a feat to use it one-handed. If you could use it one-handed normally, no one would use longswords.Wouldn't that be true of daggers and shortswords already? I think the reason daggers still have a niche has more to do with their versatility. They can be thrown, pierce, or slash, while the shortsword just looks like a longsword, only shorter.
Size is my guess. Rapiers are still full length blades, just thinner. Most light weapons weigh less because they are smaller rather than simply being light due to their weight.
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And don't incur extra penalties like a longsword in the offhand would. Weapon stats are all too similar to really differ enough to matter anyway.I would have to disagree with that.
Weapon stats mostly follow a pattern. The different aspects of the stats are ballanced against one another and are worked into the ballance of feats as well.
If you make rapiers light weapons you are basically giving its wielder a feat for free.
Which feat?
Sickles are light weapons and that seems like it would be an awkward thing to dual-wield(and the Pathfinder picture of the kukri looks like a wider, marginally smaller scimitar, but that could just be the art).
I was looking at the picture of the kukri yesterday, and I thought to myself "(not to scale)".
:-)
Which feat?
I think the implication is that a light weapon that did 1d6 damage with a 18-20 critical would be an exotic weapon.
I do fully agree that using power attack with a rapier seems strange and if the person was using weapon finesse to us the weapon I would probably house rule they can't also power attack with it any time they are using dex and not strength to hit.
I think it is unnecesary.
A character using a rapier not to mention using a rapier with weapon finesse would seldom take poawer attack in the first place.If a character has a decent strength and power attack a rapier would not be a very good weapon choice in the first place.
Which feat?And don't incur extra penalties like a longsword in the offhand would. Weapon stats are all too similar to really differ enough to matter anyway.I would have to disagree with that.
Weapon stats mostly follow a pattern. The different aspects of the stats are ballanced against one another and are worked into the ballance of feats as well.
If you make rapiers light weapons you are basically giving its wielder a feat for free.
A light weapon with rapier stats would normally be an exotic weapon.
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I do fully agree that using power attack with a rapier seems strange and if the person was using weapon finesse to us the weapon I would probably house rule they can't also power attack with it any time they are using dex and not strength to hit.
I actually had a DM once who thought it was odd that you couldn't power attack with daggers if wielded by someone strong enough, so you may be on to something there. It's possible that this is one of those strange areas of the rules where the logic is flawed but not faulty, like Druids not being proficient with longbows but wielding scimitars.
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I think that it is because, if the rapier were a light weapon, it would be a "lightsaber" and that would lead to all kind of copyright problems.
I was looking at the picture of the kukri yesterday, and I thought to myself "(not to scale)".:-)
None of them are scaled.
The main thing about the kukri is that its cutting edge is on the concave side of the blade, as opposed to the scimiter.
I am actually a bit put off by the weapon illustrations not being to scale and many weapon descriptions being missing.
I was referring more to the fact that a d8 and a d6 is not much of a difference except at the lowest levels.
That is true.
But also holds true for a statistical combat study, where the 1hp avg. difference would play in.
I think that it is because, if the rapier were a light weapon, it would be a "lightsaber" and that would lead to all kind of copyright problems.
LOL
I do fully agree that using power attack with a rapier seems strange and if the person was using weapon finesse to us the weapon I would probably house rule they can't also power attack with it any time they are using dex and not strength to hit.I think it is unnecesary.
A character using a rapier not to mention using a rapier with weapon finesse would seldom take poawer attack in the first place.If a character has a decent strength and power attack a rapier would not be a very good weapon choice in the first place.
Never actually seen anyone power attack with one, true, but if someone wanted to try it I dont see why it couldnt be viewed as like a power lunge with both hands or even just a full on smash to the face with the guard or something like that. It wouldnt be the same as a power attack with a longsword or greataxe or something but you can apply your strength to the weapon if you get inventive.
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A light weapon with rapier stats would normally be an exotic weapon.Which feat?And don't incur extra penalties like a longsword in the offhand would. Weapon stats are all too similar to really differ enough to matter anyway.I would have to disagree with that.
Weapon stats mostly follow a pattern. The different aspects of the stats are ballanced against one another and are worked into the ballance of feats as well.
If you make rapiers light weapons you are basically giving its wielder a feat for free.
But there are no light exotic weapons with rapier stats. In fact, the light melee weapons in the exotic category are less impressive than the rapier, considering damage and crit range. The crit range of a rapier can be found on a light weapon--the kukri--although it deals a d4 instead of a d6. And I always thought that exotic weapons were meant to be less common, like the oversized bastard sword and the Eastern-flavored weapons.
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Point taken.
In a thread about Rapiers.
Your wit is as sharp as ever.
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Point taken.In a thread about Rapiers.
Your wit is as sharp as ever.
LOL
All right, I feel a little better about the rapier's place, though I have to wonder if cinematic combat loses something when a dual-wielding swashbuckler has to use a pair of short swords or kukris in order to achieve, mechanically, what in film and legend has always been twin rapiers.
Wasn't there a cutlass in 3.5? Were the stats any better? Worse?
Point taken.In a thread about Rapiers.
Your wit is as sharp as ever.
LOL
All right, I feel a little better about the rapier's place, though I have to wonder if cinematic combat loses something when a dual-wielding swashbuckler has to use a pair of short swords or kukris in order to achieve, mechanically, what in film and legend has always been twin rapiers.
Wasn't there a cutlass in 3.5? Were the stats any better? Worse?
It might also be appropriate to mark the rapier as a "special case" for the purpose of Dual-Wield.
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After reading through all the weapon categories, were does it list what is light and what isn't? All I could find was the following descriptor:
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
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After reading through all the weapon categories, were does it list what is light and what isn't? All I could find was the following descriptor:
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
The weapon chart divides them into Simple, Martial, and Exotic and each of those is subdivided into Light, One-handed, and Two-Handed(with Melee and Ranged as further subcategories).
I guess the reason is balance.
However even if you could using RAW duel wield who would?
It just doesn't feel/look right. If someone uses a rapier what do you imagine? Light on the feet one handed dancing about type fighting.
Now imagine duel wield and it looks silly.
I guess the reason is balance.
However even if you could using RAW duel wield who would?
It just doesn't feel/look right. If someone uses a rapier what do you imagine? Light on the feet one handed dancing about type fighting.
Now imagine duel wield and it looks silly.
Admittedly, duel wielding a Rapier and Parrying Dagger was more common, and would likely fit better into your image.
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I guess the reason is balance.
However even if you could using RAW duel wield who would?
It just doesn't feel/look right. If someone uses a rapier what do you imagine? Light on the feet one handed dancing about type fighting.
Now imagine duel wield and it looks silly.
I said already, dual-wielding swashbuckling types. I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean 1 through 3 last week and it looked fine while they were doing it, both one-handed and dual-wielding. Was it realistic, perhaps not, but this is a fantasy game, after all.
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I guess the reason is balance.
However even if you could using RAW duel wield who would?
It just doesn't feel/look right. If someone uses a rapier what do you imagine? Light on the feet one handed dancing about type fighting.
Now imagine duel wield and it looks silly.Wielding a pair of rapiers was a real historical fighting style.
Admittedly, duel wielding a Rapier and Parrying Dagger was more common, and would likely fit better into your image.
I stand corrected. There IS historical basis for the trope.
I believe it's the Complete Adventurer Splatbook, but in one of the splatbooks is a feat called 'Over-Sized Two Weapon Fighting'. It allows you to use a one-handed weapon off-hand without penalty.
So to get odd two-weapon fighting combos, you use that.
Twin Rapier : Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Over-Sized Two Weapon Fighting
Twin katana's : Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Over-Sized Two Weapon Fighting
Twin Longswords : Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Over-sized Two Weapon Fighting.
I guess the reason is balance.
However even if you could using RAW duel wield who would?
It just doesn't feel/look right. If someone uses a rapier what do you imagine? Light on the feet one handed dancing about type fighting.
Now imagine duel wield and it looks silly.Wielding a pair of rapiers was a real historical fighting style.
Admittedly, duel wielding a Rapier and Parrying Dagger was more common, and would likely fit better into your image.
Agreed. There is a few accounts of duel wielding rapiers but it was by far more common to use parrying daggers, bucklers or cloaks. Now I don't pretend to be an expert but I would assume that it was very uncommon because a) its very difficult b) I imagine rapiers to be more of a thrusting weapon than slashing. If it wasn't why didn't everyone fight with two rapiers?
To me and my style of play visualisation is important. If in my mind something seems reasonable then go for it. If it doesn't....
You can Power Attack with Light Weapons anyways, so that hardly seems relevant. I don't see the big deal about the fact Weapon Finesse specifically works with Rapiers (and other non-Light Weapons like Spiked Chain, a 2 Handed Weapon). Basically the only relevant fact is that Paizo thinks Rapiers are NOT easier to use in your off-hand when 2WF-ing. IF you disagree with that, then change it. Otherwise, I just don't see a problem with the RAW.
But there are no light exotic weapons with rapier stats. In fact, the light melee weapons in the exotic category are less impressive than the rapier, considering damage and crit range. The crit range of a rapier can be found on a light weapon--the kukri--although it deals a d4 instead of a d6. And I always thought that exotic weapons were meant to be less common, like the oversized bastard sword and the Eastern-flavored weapons.
For what it's worth, the Kukri was exotic in 3.0. It was moved to martial in 3.5, probably b/c it was too popular.
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Another reason for the category might be that, if you are using a rapier that is one size category larger than you, it becomes a two-handed weapon, which pretty much would have to be the case for sanity to reign in my mind.
And, especially in Pathfinder, I think a non-rogue rapier user has to be a bloody fool not to use Power Attack with their rapier - my swashbuckling fighter certainly does with almost literally every attack - because it allows you to dump all your stat boosts into Dex and still keep enhancing your damage at a fairly solid rate. And yes, I pretty much always imagine it as being a lunge for a vital area - I often think of Power Attack as being how you do "called shots" in d20.
The "gentleman's sword" often had no sharp edges at all. The length allowed parrying an opponent's blade, along with quick thrusts. Just like in modern fencing, speed and technique was the key.
There is some good info on the nets about the rapier and other weapons of the time. Those guys tore each other up!
Which feat?And don't incur extra penalties like a longsword in the offhand would. Weapon stats are all too similar to really differ enough to matter anyway.I would have to disagree with that.
Weapon stats mostly follow a pattern. The different aspects of the stats are ballanced against one another and are worked into the ballance of feats as well.
If you make rapiers light weapons you are basically giving its wielder a feat for free.
Oversized two-weapon fighting
I think that it is because, if the rapier were a light weapon, it would be a "lightsaber" and that would lead to all kind of copyright problems.
*clap clap* Well done, sir. I want one.
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You can Power Attack with Light Weapons anyways, so that hardly seems relevant. I don't see the big deal about the fact Weapon Finesse specifically works with Rapiers (and other non-Light Weapons like Spiked Chain, a 2 Handed Weapon). Basically the only relevant fact is that Paizo thinks Rapiers are NOT easier to use in your off-hand when 2WF-ing. IF you disagree with that, then change it. Otherwise, I just don't see a problem with the RAW.
The Power Attack comment I made dates back to the 3.5 version of the feat which explicitly forbids using it with light weapons. I hadn't realized that the Pathfinder version includes them, but in hindsight it makes sense given the changes.
Your tone is a little condescending. I'm not sure if that's intentional, but it sounds like your contribution to the discussion is, "Paizo wrote the rules, follow the rules or don't," and then you stare at me pointedly to indicate what you think of people who change the rules. "The only relevant fact," and "I just don't see a problem," are definitely phrases that should be used sparingly unless you're talking down to someone. ()
Two-Weapon Fighting is not the only reason I brought this up. I brought this up because a 2 lb sword with similar stats as a short sword seemed out of place as a heavier weapon. My concerns were as aesthetic as they were mechanical. If I wanted to build a dual-wielding finesse fighter for purely mechanical reasons, I would happily create an Elven fighter who didn't have to take the exotic proficiency, etc, etc, but I'm not trying to cheat the rules. I was opening up a friendly discussion about something that's been nagging at me for the reasons I listed in my post.
Elven Lightblades are relatively new additions to the game. In 3.5 they were not part of the core rules, but rapier was and has not changed from one iteration of the game to the next. Some people have suggested that this could be because of the length of the blade, which makes some sense to me aesthetically, although things like length and shape of a weapon's blade are not enumerated in their statistics.
It's possible that my issues with the rapier are not so much because the rapier is in the wrong place, but because it has a clearly defined role in cinematic history and the word instantly conjures an image. If I hear "rapier," I picture a certain kind of sword and a certain type of fighting style. Short swords don't conjure the same imagery, although it seems more and more that the cutlass is more a short sword than a rapier, and that characters in films like Pirates of the Caribbean dual-wield something other than rapiers(though I am no swordsmith, I can't say for sure).
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So really, it is clearly not a Light weapon, as the exceptions are outside, rather than to the Light specifications.
Put another way, your choices are:
One-handed but considered Light for Weapon...
Your points are well-taken. I hadn't considered grappling and how being a light weapon would factor into that(although one or two other light weapons give me pause, when I try to picture them used in a grapple).
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Oversized two-weapon fightingWhich feat?And don't incur extra penalties like a longsword in the offhand would. Weapon stats are all too similar to really differ enough to matter anyway.I would have to disagree with that.
Weapon stats mostly follow a pattern. The different aspects of the stats are ballanced against one another and are worked into the ballance of feats as well.
If you make rapiers light weapons you are basically giving its wielder a feat for free.
If one uses only the core rules of Pathfinder or 3.5, it's not actually an option, but I do see the point.
Since Pathfinder updated the rules for oversized weapons to basically grant Monkey Grip without a feat, I wonder if something similar would apply to weapons smaller than their wielder's size category. Is there a rule on medium characters wishing to wield small rapiers? Does the smaller version of a weapon reduce it one category, Two-Handed to One-Handed, One-Handed to Light? In some cases, the damage would be almost too small to be worth the effort, but I could see definite advantages.
Since Pathfinder updated the rules for oversized weapons to basically grant Monkey Grip without a feat, I wonder if something similar would apply to weapons smaller than their wielder's size category. Is there a rule on medium characters wishing to wield small rapiers? Does the smaller version of a weapon reduce it one category, Two-Handed to One-Handed, One-Handed to Light? In some cases, the damage would be almost too small to be worth the effort, but I could see definite advantages.
Look up Inappropiate sized weapons in the weapons section of the equipment chapter.
A cumulative -2 to hit per size category difference.
But there are no light exotic weapons with rapier stats. In fact, the light melee weapons in the exotic category are less impressive than the rapier, considering damage and crit range. The crit range of a rapier can be found on a light weapon--the kukri--although it deals a d4 instead of a d6. And I always thought that exotic weapons were meant to be less common, like the oversized bastard sword and the Eastern-flavored weapons.
The Elven light blade of the Complete Warriors has the exact same stats, while only being a light weapon.
Generally exotic weapons are not just a function of stats, but also special capabilities. All Exotic weapons have them and depending upon your fighting style, chosing them is easily justified.
stuff
Sorry if I came off that way,
I actually wanted to flesh that post out more, but I was in last minute caffeine-slurping mode before dashing off to work. Please know I wasn't making ANY judgment of you as a person/player, I was probably just a little bit too directly responding to the thread topic....As far as I can tell, if you DON'T want to enable dual-Rapier wielders (which doesn't seem your intent),
the situation comes down to either:
or
(I presume you'd want to take the same approach for ALL the non-Light Finesse Weapons, like Spiked Chain)
...But how would that be any better?
It's just moved the 'exception', from Weapon Finesse to 2WF.
Personally, the "Finesse Weapon" concept is familiar and works fine, and 'inverting' this exception to make "harder to 2WF with" Light Weapons seems like a MORE confusing situation.
A historic rapier wasn't significantly lighter than an arming sword (the RPG 'longsword'), either. The classic cruciform medieval sword weighted around 3-4 lbs, and a rapier weighed about the same, just with a different distribution. The rapier was significantly longer, the blades were often close to a meter in length, where a regular one-handed sword generally had a blade around 32 inches long. The handguard and pommel were usually much less chunky on a rapier, but also more elaborate, meaning the amount of steel used was about the same. The leverage on a rapier is different enough to make it more responsive in the hand, and it hits with far less inertia behind each blow, but it is not significantly lighter than a normal sword. I know this is a fantasy game, but this is another perspective into why a rapier isn't a "light" weapon.
As for wielding "Florentine" as the SCAdians I know call it, or for wielding a rapier in the off-hand, take a 1/2" wooden dowel (or broomstick, etc) around a yard or so long and see how that feels in your weak hand. Then compare it with a dagger-sized piece. There should be a significant difference in how they feel and how well you can use them, which translates to how well they can be wielded without special training. My point is, it's easy enough to pick up and use a knife, a dagger, a hatchet, etc in your off-hand, but trying the same thing with a rapier will be a lot more awkward, which supports the "rapier is not a light weapon" argument.