Reincarnation and Sorcerer Bloodline


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

OK, so here's the question. If a sorcerer is killed and reincarnated, does the bloodline remain or is the sorcerer separated from their bloodline? The underlying question is the bloodline a physical thing (i.e. - it is literally "in your blood") or is it a spiritual thing (i.e. - it is part of your essence and therefore stays with you regardless of the body you inhabit)?

While the reincarnate spell does state that class abilities are retained, the description of the bloodline puts this particular aspect of the class into a bit of a gray area in some instances. For example, I could see bloodlines like Infernal, where a distant relation signed a contract with a devil, to apply more on a spiritual level than a direct blood connection. For others, where there was a distant physical relative (dragon, aberration, etc), it seems to be a bit more fuzzy (where the connection would be a direct physical link to the source).

Of course, any GM can run the rules as per their own interpretation, but I was just curious as to an official stance and/or what others on the boards take on it is ...


That's actually an interesting question.

I guess it depends on case by case.

Some bloodlines might be from, well, the blood.
An ancestor of the sorcerer was of a special race, with special abilities, bing, the sorcerer get some of them as abilities. In a way like a half-elf or half-orc.
In that case, i believe being reincarnated would break the bloodline.

But some other bloodlines might be on a spiritual level, touching the soul or spirit of the subject.
This is often the case from the lineage of planar beings, such as celestials or fiends.
These legacies would continue whatever the incarnation.


zylphryx wrote:
If a sorcerer is killed and reincarnated, does the bloodline remain or is the sorcerer separated from their bloodline?

Sorcerer is still a sorcerer. While it talks about bloodline your sorcerer class levels are not tied to physical body.

Reincarnate wrote:
It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged.

There is no special exception for sorcerers because the class ability is called a bloodline.


I would run it like this: Don't screw the player.

More specifically, why can't it be both? Perhaps a bloodline is a magical inheritance you gain from an ancestor, distant or not. It exists only within your blood, like the color of your hair. But then by taking an active interest in pursuing your own abilities, and causing them to grow and change you results in the MAGIC being tied to your very soul. Magic is the very stuff of the universe, and it makes a lot of sense that exploring and expanding on such a phenomenal power would weave itself into your essence, body or spiritual.

With this concept, a sorcerer reincarnated wouldn't lose her abilities, and any other character could potentially be reincarnated into a "magically capable" body.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
I would run it like this: Don't screw the player.

This is pretty much it IMO. If you take away a characters core class ability you are seriously screwing over the player.

It would be somewhat interesting flavor to remove it but then basically you have turned an effective party member into a commoner with class levels and a bunch of gee-gaws.

The rules don't support it, and it's not fun. I don't see any reason you would do it.


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The bloodline is more the spark than anything else. Once the tinder (that's the character) has caught fire (taken levels in sorcerer), the spark is only relevant in a historical sense. The character still knows everything he knew before, so he can still cast magic and summon forth all the same abilities he had before. Having dragon blood or whatever eases the passage into becoming a spellcaster, but it's not a requirement.


The sorcerer is reincarnated in a NEW BODY. The body has no particular bloodline. The character remembers its former life and form, and is still basically the same person in a different body.

A sorcerer wouldn't lose the bloodline powers. Good question, though.

Contributor

This has always been a trouble with reincarnation and any physical trait related to ancestry, not just with sorcerers. Reincarnation generally assumes a vanilla race and forgets about all the special sprinkles and mix-ins. You can be an awakened owlbear with grafted tentacles and a half-golem template and Reincarnation still brings you back as a vanilla halfling.

My suggestion for sorcerers is to let them get reincarnated as some random race, then roll the sorcerer bloodlines in order and see what this body might be related to and what the sorcerer training sparks off of. Yes, this may screw with a character concept, but so does coming back as a halfling. Allow the standard "a wish may fix this problem" and maybe even allow Limited Wish to do the same, since you're just doing slight monkeying with one's ancestry, and adding a drop of dragon or demon blood isn't that big of a deal (since everyone who doesn't take levels of sorcerer would never notice).

Alternately, simply assume that everything boinks everything, so anyone can reasonably choose any sorcerer bloodline regardless of the family, because if you go far back enough, there had to be a whatever in the family tree.


My general view is let the player decide. Some players may opt to have a different bloodline. If so, I would let them switch out the granted abilities.

Just because you comeback in a new body, it does not mean that you cannot have the same bloodline. A dragon bloodline human and a dragon bloodline elf are still different physical bodies.


There is definately precedent with it being a matter of spirit or 'essence' instead of actual DNA. Consider the descriptions for the infernal or undead bloodlines. It is not neccessarily the case that a bloodline can only be achieved through prior family members having some interesting mating practices.

I would keep the bloodline in tact. Call it something different if you like, but RAW and RAI im pretty sure the bloodline should stay.


Kolokotroni wrote:
but RAW and RAI im pretty sure the bloodline should stay.

This.

This question is another application of the "physics is a house rule" doctrine. Common sense isn't always good sense when it comes to games. In fact, "common sense" actually frequently causes a lot more problems than it solves in finely balanced games.

Sovereign Court

All in all, it's probably a moot point for the player who lost their sorcerer character (he's talking about rolling up a fighter or other tank-like character). It was a question that was raised during the post-game and had players taking both sides in the discussion.

If the player decided to go ahead with the reincarnation (if the other PCs can reclaim some piece of him within the 1 week window), then I'll probably allow him to retain his bloodline (I do like the concept of the bloodline being physical, but once acted on becoming entwined with the individual's essence), though determine the species he comes back as randomly.

Thanks for the input folks. :)

Dark Archive

Genetics isn't the only factor of sorcery. It merely produces brains optimized for spellcasting. This is why the Sage and Empyreal bloodlines can operate on Intelligence and Wisdom instead of Charisma. But once a brain has the connections in place to cast spells, those connections carry over to the new brain. This shape-of-sorcery then insinuates itself upon the blood passing through the brain, and the magical aspect of the bloodline is reverse-engineered (because bloodlines can arise merely from exposure to a magical source).

Of course, that's just my take on it. If your GM is the type to revoke your bloodline over this, you can at least argue that the spells your character KNOWS are separate from the bloodline spells your character inherited. Maybe you can argue for the mongrel mage archetype.


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...Dude.. did you just necro a ~10 year old thread?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Win for oldest necro!

/cevah

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