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Pretty much every dex-to-damage feat or ability before now has had "no 1.5 Dex to two-handed attacks" type language. This does not. So can the Unchained Rogue get 1.5 Dex to damage with an Elven Curve Blade?
Estoc and the Aldori Dueling sword also fall into this category, as well as the whip (maybe?).
It doesn't specify.
It merely says:
Finesse Training (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon
Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level,
she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with
Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this
choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes
a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds
her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier
to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue
from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she
does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a
second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.
I lean towards no, but only because it says you may add your dex modifier instead of strength. It doesn't make a caveat that if you could two-hand the weapon it would increase. To my knowledge, the elven curve blade and the elven branched spear are the only weapons that are two-handed and usable with weapon finesse.
Altogether, it is unclear. And until it is clarified, I will go with the more conservative interpretation.
It doesn't specify.
It merely says:
Finesse Training (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon
Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level,
she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with
Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this
choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes
a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds
her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier
to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue
from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she
does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a
second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.I lean towards no, but only because it says you may add your dex modifier instead of strength. It doesn't make a caveat that if you could two-hand the weapon it would increase. To my knowledge, the elven curve blade and the elven spear (not the proper name but I forget the name) are the only weapons that are two-handed and usable with weapon finesse.
Altogether, it is unclear. And until it is clarified, I will go with the more conservative interpretation.
Unless I am forgetting my rules, you can also two-hand a one-handed weapon and get 1.5x strength bonus to the weapon.
I think that it is also not 1.5x Dexterity, but under this wording would be full Dexterity on your off-hand attack.
You can use a one-handed weapon in two hands, I was simply talking about two-handed finesseable weapons.
But I agree, currently you would replace strength with full dex damage with the way it's written. Including off-hand.
If I had to take a guess on where this will end up though...
I'm going to guess no 1.5 dex, and reduced dex to off-hand.
You can use a one-handed weapon in two hands, I was simply talking about two-handed finesseable weapons.
But I agree, currently you would replace strength with full dex damage with the way it's written. Including off-hand.
If I had to take a guess on where this will end up though...
I'm going to guess no 1.5 dex, and reduced dex to off-hand.
Yeah, I agree that's where it will end up. I'd much rather have Dex to damage across the board replace Strength (1.5x Strength means 1.5x Dexterity) and take the bonus when two-handing and be forced to get Double Slice for TWF.
On a Rogue, though, TWF can probably use the love of full Dex on both hands. Sucks for 2HF Rogues, though.
I'm not raising the martials can't have nice things alarm. Just stating where I think this will end up.
If you're familiar with my posting history, I think you would see I'm not an alarmist about things being taken away from martials. In fact, I'm usually on the side of nerfing whatever the option in question is, because I tend to find them unbalanced. It just happens there is a very vocal group that complains about it a lot when it happens to melee characters.
Just because wizards can change the world doesn't mean we should give unbalanced options to martial characters.
*Please note, I don't necessarily think this particular option is unbalanced. My comment is more about the general events which happen when people cry
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Hmmm so two weapons apply full dex to both?
I'm not raising the martials can't have nice things alarm. Just stating where I think this will end up.
If you're familiar with my posting history, I think you would see I'm not an alarmist about things being taken away from martials. In fact, I'm usually on the side of nerfing whatever the option in question is, because I tend to find them unbalanced. It just happens there is a very vocal group that complains about it a lot when it happens to melee characters.
Just because wizards can change the world doesn't mean we should give unbalanced options to martial characters.
*Please note, I don't necessarily think this particular option is unbalanced. My comment is more about the general events which happen when people cry
I was only messing around! I wasn't even directing the joke at you. More at the fact that whenever there is a feat/rules question and martials, the weaker option is chosen. Hence me expecting the option of .5x Dex on off-hand, 1.0x Dex for two-hand to be the prevailing one. Hell, I cry martials can't have nice things all the time, probably more than most.
I tried to use the ooc tag to convey my jest, but I see that was lost. My mistake! I'll use sarcasm tags next time.
That's the ruling I expect as well Xethik. I'm *hoping* that they either let it work the same way Strength would or at the very least allow it to be full Dex for offhand weapons.
Now I absolutely must make an Unchained rogue with an Elven curve blade and Power Attack. That actually makes for some nice damage. Mix with Urban Barb and/or Primal Hunter for Dex boosts...
Hmmm so two weapons apply full dex to both?Only if you have Double Slice.
That's the current state of affairs; Str bonus to 2WF requires Double Slice to get the full bonus, so absent any other language, the same is true for Finesse Training.
So which is it?
By the wording, Finesse Training doesnt give any bonus for using a weapon two-handed as you are not using the strength bonus, so it cannot be raised. That also means you do not take a penalty for using a weapon in your off-hand.
a bit confusing but it does make your overall benefit greater for a two-weapon rogue.
Unless its specifically stated somewhere that Finesse Training replaces strength for effects related to the strength bonus, its a loophole. You could always actually use the strength bonus for benefits/penalties, but that is unlikely for a Rogue.
Double Slice is effectively worthless as it specifically pertains to strength.
The Sage Wildblood-line for the Sorcerer averts this problem as it specifically states "to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class", so it s a complete stat replacement.
There has been an answer to this in th Unchained FAQ that specifically states you get 1.5 Dex bonus using a weapon with two-hands.
There has been an answer to this in th Unchained FAQ that specifically states you get 1.5 Dex bonus using a weapon with two-hands.
What about off-hand weapons, or Double Slice or Two-weapon Rend feats?
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FAQ
Off hand weapons add half your dexterity to damage.
Double slice seems to fall at several hurdles, due to it's wording it specifically pertains to strength and rogues finesse might not be broad enough to alter feats, and even without that it likely fails the strength multiplier exclusion (x 0.5 to x1).
So that FAQ made two-handed Finesse Training better and two-weapon Finesse Training worse? Swell.