[CRB Errors] Smite Evil ability


Rules Questions


P61, Smite Evil ability, 2nd paragraph: "...the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any)..."

It seems to me this should be Charisma bonus, not modifier...

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com


RiTz21 wrote:

P61, Smite Evil ability, 2nd paragraph: "...the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any)..."

It seems to me this should be Charisma bonus, not modifier...

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

"Modifier" is the standard usage in both PF and 3.5. So with a Charisma of 16 (giving a Charisma modifier of +3), the AC bonus to deflection given by smite evil would be 3.

The terms are probably equivalent for most game usage though.


meabolex wrote:
RiTz21 wrote:

P61, Smite Evil ability, 2nd paragraph: "...the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any)..."

It seems to me this should be Charisma bonus, not modifier...

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

"Modifier" is the standard usage in both PF and 3.5. So with a Charisma of 16 (giving a Charisma modifier of +3), the AC bonus to deflection given by smite evil would be 3.

The terms are probably equivalent for most game usage though.

Then "if any" doesn't make any sense (since everyone has a modifier, either positive or negative).

Maybe it could be changed to "if positive"?


meabolex wrote:

"Modifier" is the standard usage in both PF and 3.5. So with a Charisma of 16 (giving a Charisma modifier of +3), the AC bonus to deflection given by smite evil would be 3.

The terms are probably equivalent for most game usage though.

No. A MODIFIER can be either a positive OR Negative value, while the BONUS is strictly the 'positive' value, if higher than 0.

What would happen if the Paladin would see his Charisma score lowered by some effect to 8? If you keep the "modifier", then you would "gain a deflection bonus of -1".. thus LOOSING armor class!! This does not make sense - people tend to forget the Ability Scores can be lowered sometimes.

Trust me - I've been working on implementing the Rules of D&D3.5 for 6 years (and now adding PFRPG), and the difference between "Modifier" and "Bonus" is very important!!

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com


hogarth wrote:
meabolex wrote:
RiTz21 wrote:

P61, Smite Evil ability, 2nd paragraph: "...the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any)..."

It seems to me this should be Charisma bonus, not modifier...

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

"Modifier" is the standard usage in both PF and 3.5. So with a Charisma of 16 (giving a Charisma modifier of +3), the AC bonus to deflection given by smite evil would be 3.

The terms are probably equivalent for most game usage though.

Then "if any" doesn't make any sense (since everyone has a modifier, either positive or negative).

Maybe it could be changed to "if positive"?

Having a modifier of 0 (while typically written as +0) means you have no Charisma modifier and thus would gain no bonus. "If positive" is probably the correct interpretation in this case, since there's no such thing as a deflection penalty.


RiTz21 wrote:
meabolex wrote:

"Modifier" is the standard usage in both PF and 3.5. So with a Charisma of 16 (giving a Charisma modifier of +3), the AC bonus to deflection given by smite evil would be 3.

The terms are probably equivalent for most game usage though.

No. A MODIFIER can be either a positive OR Negative value, while the BONUS is strictly the 'positive' value, if any.

What would happen if the Paladin would see his Charisma score lowered by some effect to 8? If you keep the "modifier", then you would "gain a deflection bonus of -1".. thus LOOSING armor class!! This does not make sense - people tend to forget the Ability Scores can be lowered sometimes.

Trust me - I've been working on implementing the Rules of D&D3.5 for 6 years now, and the difference between "Modifier" and "Bonus" is very important!!

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

Ahh, I see what you're saying. There is no such thing as a deflection penalty.


hogarth wrote:
Then "if any" doesn't make any sense (since everyone has a modifier, either positive or negative).

If any makes perfect sense, if that was a 'bonus' instead of a 'modifier'... hence why this is an error.

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

Silver Crusade

Yeah, I think you found a genuine one. It's that way in the PRD, too. Paizo hasn't caught it yet.


Here is an example where this was done correctly (for the Monk):

CRB wrote:

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered,

the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his
CMD.

RiTz21

http://TheOnlySheet.com


RiTz21 wrote:

Here is an example where this was done correctly (for the Monk):

CRB wrote:

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered,

the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his
CMD.

RiTz21

http://TheOnlySheet.com

So the error hinges on "gains" versus "adds"?


meabolex wrote:
So the error hinges on "gains" versus "adds"?

er..... No.

I already explained exactly what the error is...!
In anycase, M. Bulmahn will understand :P

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

Silver Crusade

In simple terms:
Charisma goes down.
Charisma modifier goes down.
Charisma modifier is now a penalty.
Paladin's AC gets worse for smiting!


Shadewest wrote:

In simple terms:

Charisma goes down.
Charisma modifier goes down.
Charisma modifier is now a penalty.
Paladin's AC gets worse for smiting!

Except you can't have a deflection penalty.


meabolex wrote:


Except you can't have a deflection penalty.

Why not? a cursed ring of protection?


RiTz21 wrote:
meabolex wrote:
So the error hinges on "gains" versus "adds"?

er..... No.

I already explained exactly what the error is...!
In anycase, M. Bulmahn will understand :P

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

While it might indeed be unintended, it's illogical to make errata about something that will never be a case -- such as having a deflection penalty.

Errata only changes things that break the game. I'd hardly think that this would break the game.

Silver Crusade

meabolex wrote:
Shadewest wrote:

In simple terms:

Charisma goes down.
Charisma modifier goes down.
Charisma modifier is now a penalty.
Paladin's AC gets worse for smiting!
Except you can't have a deflection penalty.

That's why it's an error!


Ughbash wrote:
meabolex wrote:


Except you can't have a deflection penalty.
Why not? a cursed ring of protection?

It would give a penalty to AC, but not a deflection penalty. You can't obtain a negative deflection bonus.

Sovereign Court

meabolex wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
meabolex wrote:


Except you can't have a deflection penalty.
Why not? a cursed ring of protection?
It would give a penalty to AC, but not a deflection penalty. You can't obtain a negative deflection bonus.

is that actually stated in the rules, or is that just a common sense thing on your part?


lastknightleft wrote:
meabolex wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
meabolex wrote:


Except you can't have a deflection penalty.
Why not? a cursed ring of protection?
It would give a penalty to AC, but not a deflection penalty. You can't obtain a negative deflection bonus.
is that actually stated in the rules, or is that just a common sense thing on your part?

You can have a size penalty because the rules say so:

Quote:
Size Modifier: You receive a bonus or penalty to your AC based on your size. See Table: Size Modifiers.

But you can't have penalties for the following:

Quote:

Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.

Deflection Bonus: Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.

Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

There's no "enhancement bonus penalty" or "deflection bonus penalty".

Sovereign Court

RiTz21 wrote:
meabolex wrote:

"Modifier" is the standard usage in both PF and 3.5. So with a Charisma of 16 (giving a Charisma modifier of +3), the AC bonus to deflection given by smite evil would be 3.

The terms are probably equivalent for most game usage though.

No. A MODIFIER can be either a positive OR Negative value, while the BONUS is strictly the 'positive' value, if higher than 0.

What would happen if the Paladin would see his Charisma score lowered by some effect to 8? If you keep the "modifier", then you would "gain a deflection bonus of -1".. thus LOOSING armor class!! This does not make sense - people tend to forget the Ability Scores can be lowered sometimes.

Trust me - I've been working on implementing the Rules of D&D3.5 for 6 years (and now adding PFRPG), and the difference between "Modifier" and "Bonus" is very important!!

RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com

Ah, but if a 'bonus' is strictly positive, as you say, then it doesn't matter if it's charisma modifier or charisma bonus, since the strictly positive condition is already handled by the term deflection 'bonus'.

Sovereign Court

meabolex wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
meabolex wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
meabolex wrote:


Except you can't have a deflection penalty.
Why not? a cursed ring of protection?
It would give a penalty to AC, but not a deflection penalty. You can't obtain a negative deflection bonus.
is that actually stated in the rules, or is that just a common sense thing on your part?

You can have a size penalty because the rules say so:

Quote:
Size Modifier: You receive a bonus or penalty to your AC based on your size. See Table: Size Modifiers.

But you can't have penalties for the following:

Quote:

Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.

Deflection Bonus: Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.

Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

There's no "enhancement bonus penalty" or "deflection bonus penalty".

I don't know, I see where you're coming from, but it sounds to me kinda like the guys in 3.5 who would argue that by RAW being dead didn't mean anything because the death rules weren't spelled out, so once you die just continue adventuring.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is a wrong one, but just because something isn't stated doesn't mean that it can't exist. but thanks for the quotes. as far as it goes I do think that it was a mistake.


lastknightleft wrote:

I don't know, I see where you're coming from, but it sounds to me kinda like the guys in 3.5 who would argue that by RAW being dead didn't mean anything because the death rules weren't spelled out, so once you die just continue adventuring.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is a wrong one, but just because something isn't stated doesn't mean that it can't exist. but thanks for the quotes. as far as it goes I do think that it was a mistake.

Yeah, for instance, the player who tries to say, "I have a 1 Charisma, so my -5 Charisma Modifier must get added as a bonus. Since the Deflection bonus must Increase my AC (according to the text that meabolex posted), the only possible solution is to take the absolute value of the Charisma modifier in order to make it a bonus! Voila! All of a sudden, the paladin's abysmal charisma turns into a huge boon! So, I agree with the OP. This is an error that should be fixed. There are too many ways to misinterpret the text if it is not standardized.


tos_shai_hulud wrote:
Yeah, for instance, the player who tries to say, I have a 1 Charisma, so my -5 Charisma Modifier must get added as a bonus. Since the Deflection bonus must Increase my AC (according to the text that meabolex posted), the only possible solution is to take the absolute value of the Charisma modifier in order to make it a bonus!

That would be true if a negative modifier could ever confer a bonus. The only thing a negative modifier can confer is a penalty. However, in this case, you can't have a deflection bonus penalty.

Any reasonable person would agree that a bonus cannot be a penalty. They're mutually exclusive concepts.


meabolex wrote:


That would be true if a negative modifier could ever confer a bonus. The only thing a negative modifier can confer is a penalty. However, in this case, you can't have a deflection bonus penalty.

Any reasonable person would agree that a bonus cannot be a penalty. They're mutually exclusive concepts.

As a math person, a penalty is just a negative bonus.

Going back to the deflection argument I would say that since a ring of protection +2 gives a +2 deflection bonus, a cursed -2 ring of protection would give a -2 deflection penalty. Sure you could call it an attraction penalty but I do not see a reason having read what you stated that there could not be a deflection penalty.

The reason I think it is important to call it a -2 Deflection penalty as compared to jstu a -2 Armor penalty is it would then effect Touch AC.

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