I think there was some rule in 3.5 that a character could get only a maxiumum of 5 attacks...
Then I see the Monk Flurry where he can get up to 7 !
6 at 15th level !
Now with he Ki he can get another.
With a weapon of speed he can get another ...
can he get another if hasted?
thats 10 attacks at 20th or even just 7 at 10th !!
What DM wants his players getting 7 attacks at 10th level??
This seems crazy . With the same Base attack as a fighter he is going to be the most insane killing machine ever at higher levels.
Is this the real deal in PF or have i missed something ?
Please help.
I think there was some rule in 3.5 that a character could get only a maxiumum of 5 attacks...
That rule states that you can receive at most (4|5?) attacks from having a high Base Attack Bonus. It primarily applies to high-CR monsters.
It doesn't have any effect on attacks gained by means other than having a high BAB.
Is this the real deal in PF or have i missed something ?
Please help.
This is the real deal. The Monk gets the same attack progression with his Flurry of Blows that a Fighter or Ranger dedicated to Two-Weapon-Fighting gets.
WOW. really...
And what about the haste and the weapon of speed?
This is the real deal. The Monk gets the same attack progression with his Flurry of Blows that a Fighter or Ranger dedicated to Two-Weapon-Fighting gets.Is this the real deal in PF or have i missed something ?
Please help.
I should correct myself slightly, here. The Monk isn't actually the same as the TWF Fighter or Ranger, since those classes can get their TWF feats earlier than the Monk gets the ability to impersonate them. So the monk is slightly worse in attack progression than a dude with two swords and the feats to back them up.
WOW. really...
And what about the haste and the weapon of speed?
The haste spell and speed weapon descriptions specifically note that they are not cumulative with similar effects, which seems like it would include the Monk's ki power.
So the most attacks a monk can have is 8: The 7 attacks they have from level 16 or above, plus one additional attack granted by either a spent ki point, a haste effect, or a monk weapon/amulet of mighty fists with the speed enchantment.
Thankyou.
Once again I am healed by the widom of intellectual Giants.
My game is now Fixed.
so just to be clear as this is an issue in a current game :)
how does that work with medusas wrath? a bonus feat specifically granted to high level monks. it doesnt seem fair to nerf ki strike as they are both boons to monks. and i dont see how you can ignore ki strike, but allow medusas wrath. i think because neither ki strike or medusas wrath are described as haste effects that they shouldnt be included in the restrictions. i realize one is a feat of circumstance, but they are both "haste effects" by the logic above?? no???
additionally and this might be covered in the boards elsewhere, but what if you are using two weapons that are individually have speed on them. so if i am not mistaken this is an example of how haste COULD stack that is not specific to monks, or feats... i think.
so would a monk lose out on the ability to have boots of speed, a monk weapon of speed, and/or the ki focus and/or the medusas wrath feat just to avoid challenging fighters combat prowess??
needless to say i am pro monk.. ;)
Medusa's Wrath is already an exception to the general rule since it grants TWO additional attacks. Ki Strike does not say that it doesn't stack with other abilities that grant additional attacks, so you could use that with the Medusa's Wrath as well. I think your weapons/amulets/boots of speed and the Haste spell are out of luck though, with either of those two options.
So a 20th level Monk with Medusa's Wrath using a Flurry of Blows on a disadvantaged opponent could spend a Ki Point and get +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
Ouch.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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how does that work with medusas wrath?
if you are using two weapons that are individually have speed on them.
The feat is likely two because it should stack with Haste.
In WotC 3.5 world, Haste didn't stack and two Weapons of Speed wouldn't allow you to use more than 1 attack (you would need to choose which weapon to take the extra attack and the second weapon of speed wouldn't work.)
So by my reading of the rules (RAW), Haste, Medusa, Ki Pool, Weapon of Speed all don't stack pick one.
So because Medusa Wrath is a "feat" and or because it gives TWO attacks, it is exempt from being considered hastelike? that doesnt make sense. does it.
feats seem to trump everything?? ki strike is supernatural ability, so not like a spell. where is the line between class abilities/feats/ and even granted feats AS class abilities. either way.
the thing with boots of speed or weapons or whatever is that they need the haste spell to work, and of course that wouldnt stack. haste-efect seems to need the haste spell, there is no precedent for anything else being considered a "haste effect" just because it makes you go faster or move further or whatever. (effects of the haste spell)..
this could be said even for the monks base move bonus also. it wouldnt stack with boots of speed. cuz its "haste".. ????
So because Medusa Wrath is a "feat" and or because it gives TWO attacks, it is exempt from being considered hastelike? that doesnt make sense. does it.
feats seem to trump everything?? ki strike is supernatural ability, so not like a spell. where is the line between class abilities/feats/ and even granted feats AS class abilities. either way.
the thing with boots of speed or weapons or whatever is that they need the haste spell to work, and of course that wouldnt stack. haste-efect seems to need the haste spell, there is no precedent for anything else being considered a "haste effect" just because it makes you go faster or move further or whatever. (effects of the haste spell)..
this could be said even for the monks base move bonus also. it wouldnt stack with boots of speed. cuz its "haste".. ????
Makes no difference if they're feats, spells or supernatural abilities. Things don't stack because either a) they say they don't stack (such as the Haste spell or Speed weapon enhancement) or b) because they have the same type of bonus (with certain exceptions, like Dodge bonuses). Thus I disagree with James's assessment above.
The extra attack from the Ki Pool doesn't say that it doesn't stack with other extra attacks, nor does it have a type. Likewise for Medusa's Wrath. The Haste spell, Speed weapon enhancement and the Boots of Speed all state specifically that they stack with any other extra attacks.
In regards to the Monk's Fast Movement ability, note that it is specifically typed as an enhancement bonus to speed. This means it doesn't stack with Boots of Striding and Springing, the Expeditious Retreat spell, or anything else that gives you an enhancement bonus to your speed.
The extra attack from the Ki Pool doesn't say that it doesn't stack with other extra attacks, nor does it have a type. Likewise for Medusa's Wrath. The Haste spell, Speed weapon enhancement and the Boots of Speed all state specifically that they don't stack with any other extra attacks.
Gah, it won't let me edit. Forgot a very important word above. :D
The extra attack from the Ki Pool doesn't say that it doesn't stack with other extra attacks, nor does it have a type. Likewise for Medusa's Wrath. The Haste spell, Speed weapon enhancement and the Boots of Speed all state specifically that they stack with any other extra attacks.
the speed weapon enchancement refers to haste like effects, thats where the issue is coming up. i think cuz ki and medusas wrath are both non typed they do stack with haste. the phrase used is a haste like effect. note it doesnt say "any other attacks" its says.....
(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)pg 472 core
good point about the monks speed though, it is an enhancement bonus.. :(
Makes no difference if they're feats, spells or supernatural abilities. Things don't stack because either a) they say they don't stack (such as the Haste spell or Speed weapon enhancement) or b) because they have the same type of bonus (with certain exceptions, like Dodge bonuses). Thus I disagree with James's assessment above.
This.
The "similar effects" clause could be read as open-ended, true, but I don't think it was meant to be (otherwise it wouldn't stack with anything that granted an extra attack). The reason it says "doesn't stack with similar effects (such as haste)" instead of just "doesn't stack with haste" is so that it includes other effects which are derived from haste (i.e. boots of speed).
The monk has his own thing going on with the ki pool class feature. First of all, it's a swift action (unlike an extra attack from haste), and second (and more importantly) it never mentions anything about being based off of haste or not stacking with it.
[the speed weapon enchancement refers to haste like effects, thats where the issue is coming up. i think cuz ki and medusas wrath are both non typed they do stack with haste. the phrase used is a haste like effect. note it doesnt say "any other attacks" its says.....
(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)pg 472 core
My mistake, not quite as cut-and-dry as I thought.
Well, that doesn't say "Haste-like effects", it says "similar effects". I personally would say that it includes other abilities that give you additional attacks in a round. I can't think of any other Haste-like spells off the top of my head, so if that's the case the spell could have just said that it doesn't stack with other effects created by a Haste spell (be it from an item or other source). With it taking a more general route, I think you're out of luck combining it with Flurry, Ki Strike, Medusa's Strike, even Rapid Shot.
That's just my interpretation though. Like I said, it's not cut-and-dry. I even checked the 3.5 FAQ (or at least the latest version that I have on disk) and was surprised to see it wasn't mentioned.
[the speed weapon enchancement refers to haste like effects, thats where the issue is coming up. i think cuz ki and medusas wrath are both non typed they do stack with haste. the phrase used is a haste like effect. note it doesnt say "any other attacks" its says.....
(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)pg 472 coreMy mistake, not quite as cut-and-dry as I thought.
Well, that doesn't say "Haste-like effects", it says "similar effects". I personally would say that it includes other abilities that give you additional attacks in a round. I can't think of any other Haste-like spells off the top of my head, so if that's the case the spell could have just said that it doesn't stack with other effects created by a Haste spell (be it from an item or other source). With it taking a more general route, I think you're out of luck combining it with Flurry, Ki Strike, Medusa's Strike, even Rapid Shot.
That's just my interpretation though. Like I said, it's not cut-and-dry. I even checked the 3.5 FAQ (or at least the latest version that I have on disk) and was surprised to see it wasn't mentioned.
I don't for an instant believe that haste was intended to supercede Rappid Shot, Flurry of Blows, Two-weapon Fighting, Cleave, iterative attacks, natural attacks, and the whole shebang.
When something doesn't stack with ANYTHING that grants an extra attack (i.e, Whirlwind), it says so very clearly. I don't think this is ambiguous; it's clearly referring to haste-like effects, not extra-attack effects.
The only thing that's ambiguous is whether, being a supernatural effects which grants an extra attack at your highest bonus, the extra ki attack counts as "similar" to haste. Again, I don't think it does (it takes a swift action and only works when performing a flurry of blows, and further, the monk's description never mentions it not stacking), but there's at least room for debate there.
I don't for an instant believe that haste was intended to supercede Rappid Shot, Flurry of Blows, Two-weapon Fighting, Cleave, iterative attacks, natural attacks, and the whole shebang.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, easy there. :) I am certainly not saying that iterative and natural attacks are out. I don't think they count as 'extra' since they're built into the base mechanic for full attacks. They're not "similar" at all.
Cleave is out because it's a standard action now (despite it containing one or more attacks). Speed and Haste both need a Full-Attack action.
Two-Weapon Fighting is debatable. If your primary weapon is a Speed weapon, I wouldn't have a problem with an extra attack plus the off-hand. Two speed weapons... ehhhh, I'm wary. Likewise an arguement could be made that says that when you're under a Haste spell I can wave a sword in one hand really fast, why can't I wave the other fast too?
Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows and spending a Ki Point all give you an additional attack because you're moving faster than the norm. To me, that's a "Similar" effect, even though the source of that effect vary wildly.
The language in Whirlwind Attack is a remnant of a fix that was needed in 3.5 vs 3.0, specifically put in place to prevent the Whirlwind+Great Cleave+Bag-o-Rats exploit. Since Cleave and Great Cleave are now Standard Actions, and Whirlwind states that you can only make one melee attack per opponent in reach, I think the 'extra attacks' language is redundant and could be safely removed.
You're right that haste and speed both require full-attacks (so bringing up Cleave was irrelevant, my bad). However I'm not sure why you would say that such effects would stack with Rapid Shot but wouldn't stack with iterative attacks. Where does the text for the haste spell make a distinction between the two?
I think you've got another inconsistency in that all these extra-attack effects explicitly stack with eachother (the monks' ki attack stacks with his extra attack from flurry and with any extra attacks' from Medusa's Wrath, for instance). It's abnormal for two effects to stack with each other, but for neither of them to stack with some third effects.
Two-Weapon Fighting is debatable. If your primary weapon is a Speed weapon, I wouldn't have a problem with an extra attack plus the off-hand. Two speed weapons... ehhhh, I'm wary. Likewise an arguement could be made that says that when you're under a Haste spell I can wave a sword in one hand really fast, why can't I wave the other fast too?Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows and spending a Ki Point all give you an additional attack because you're moving faster than the norm. To me, that's a "Similar" effect, even though the source of that effect vary wildly.
I'm not saying that your logic is bad, but it does sound more like a DM reasoning his way to a houserule than someone reading the rules as written. I don't think any of that is really supported by the text.
I guess that's an innate problem with "Open-ended" rules text, however. Which is why I choose not to read that as open-ended. Haste says it doesn't work with speed, speed says it doesn't work with haste, and nothing else in the game says anything about not working with either of them. Simple enough for me. :)
(Side note: Haste says you get an extra attack with any weapon you're holding. I've always read that as granting two extra attacks to duel-wielders (which is about as good as granting one extra attack to a two-hander).)
I don't for an instant believe that haste was intended to supercede Rappid Shot, Flurry of Blows, Two-weapon Fighting, Cleave, iterative attacks, natural attacks, and the whole shebang.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, easy there. :) I am certainly not saying that iterative and natural attacks are out. I don't think they count as 'extra' since they're built into the base mechanic for full attacks. They're not "similar" at all.
Cleave is out because it's a standard action now (despite it containing one or more attacks). Speed and Haste both need a Full-Attack action.
Two-Weapon Fighting is debatable. If your primary weapon is a Speed weapon, ... under a Haste spell I can wave a sword in one hand really fast, why can't I wave the other fast too?
Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows and spending a Ki Point all give you an additional attack because you're moving faster than the norm. To me, that's a "Similar" effect, even though the source of that effect vary wildly.
i guess i dont see how you can draw a line with say cleave, because its a standard action.(the spell specifically mentions stacking base move altering enchancements)
lets look at the other effects of Haste..
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge
bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose
your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose
dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land
movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a
maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of
movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and
affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased
peed. Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
so would for instance, a Weapon Focus stack, cuz it gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls?? Is that "haste like"/ The Armor and Reflex +1 would clearly NOT stack with other dodge bonus's enhancement or other wise., but is a +1 dodge bonus "haste - like"??
Also, you get a base movement bonus (which you DO get with the boots of speed, but not the weapon quality of speed). but you ALSO wouldnt get it in combination with boots of striding. because it is clearly labeled an enhancement bonus there as well.
it seems the lines are drawn specifically to granting attacks. as far as something becoming "haste-like" or not??
the concern and attention makes sense from a mechanics point of view. Clearly boots of speed dont stack with haste, and the designers took pains to point that out clearly.
however, they did not mention stacking in the feat descriptions, or class abilities. And there are quite a few non obvious was to grant extra attacks with feats, etc.. I know for sure monks flurry grants +2BaB for instance(which could grant an extra attack say), and i think a few other classes (Barbarian Rage?? any others??) and for sure some feats grant additional attacks in certain circumstances
anyways, my take is that these feats, class abilities, all can grant extra attcks... these are NOT haste or similar abilities because they dont come from haste, and dont mention it in the description.. anything else is interpretation and not part of the core rules for sure.
but i REALLY think youve gotta disqualify all of the "extra attack" gimmicks either as "haste or similar effect" based solely on the extra attack, or grant the stacking to all of them....
and by that logic, it doesnt make sense to, for instance; grant rapid shot, but not ki strike the ability to stack with a weapon of speed/haste/etc... or say a monk can use medusa's strike, and a flurry of blows but not ki strike with or without haste etc.. etc..
(Side note: Haste says you get an extra attack with any weapon you're holding. I've always read that as granting two extra attacks to duel-wielders (which is about as good as granting one extra attack to a two-hander).)
And dove tails nicely with the way weapon of speed quality is written, allowing the extra attack in each hand. btw .. ;)
Haste - transmutation pg 294 core
The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than
normal. This extra speed has several efects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make
one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
AND
would say boots of speed in fact does grant two attacks two two weapon fighting, cuz it affects any weapon just like haste .
Speed:pg 472 core
When making a full-attack action, the
wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra
attack with it. ...(This benefit is not
cumulative with similar effects, such as
a haste spell.)
Boots of speed pg 503 core
As a free action, the wearer can click her heels together,
letting her act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10
rounds each day.
the key to the original post topic, is whether all extra attacks are a "similar effect" to haste, (ignoring its other effects) and thus cant stack with haste, themselves and any ability that grants additional attacks.
... enchancement ...
For some reason this perfectly-innocent typo (I assume?) made me laugh out loud.
I think I'm just going to start saying "enchance" all the time, to avoid the whole enchant/enhance technical debacle.
Almost as good as the crocodile totem warrior I read that granted a "+2 enchcrocodilement bonus to strength" (which I assume came from writing an "ant totem warrior" then doing a find-and-replace).
... enchancement ...For some reason this perfectly-innocent typo (I assume?) made me laugh out loud.
I think I'm just going to start saying "enchance" all the time, to avoid the whole enchant/enhance technical debacle.
Almost as good as the crocodile totem warrior I read that granted a "+2 enchcrocodilement bonus to strength" (which I assume came from writing an "ant totem warrior" then doing a find-and-replace).
lol
i guess i dont see how you can draw a line with say cleave, because its a standard action. or ki strike because its supernatural or really even whether the school is enchancement or not (although that does make a valid point regarding magic stacking as haste mentions specifically enchancements) (haste is transmuter school by the way) . a monks flurry of blows is a standard action as well.. btw.
Actually, Flurry of Blows is a Full Attack Action. So you can't Cleave and Flurry at the same time either. And it doesn't matter what school of magic we're talking about, it's the type of bonus (enhancement, sacred, morale, etc) that determines stackability.
lets look at the other effects of Haste..A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose
dodge bonuses.
The first bonus noted above is untyped, and thus stacks with everything. The second is a Dodge bonus which by definition stacks with other Dodge bonuses (it's that one exception).
for example, monks get +2 BaB when doing the flurry, which could grant an extra attack. does that stack? i say of course it does, but because it only grants BaB (which itself grants an extra attack) is it or is it not a "haste like affect" ... ??
Actually, their BAB is treated the same as their Monk level (which will make a varied difference through the Monk's career). Since iterative attacks are part of a Full Attack action, yes absolutely it stacks. This is what Haste does, it adds an extra attack to our Full Attack action.
Again, I'll point out that the Haste spell and Speed weapon ability do not use the wording you are "quoting" above (bolded). They state "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a [haste spell/speed weapon]," emphasis mine.
What it boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect. You're getting this extra attack from Haste/Speed because it's making you move faster than you normally could during a Full Attack action. Thus to me, a similar effect is anything else that grants you an extra attack in a Full Attack action because of increased speed. I've covered the various feats and Monk abilities in a previous post.
(Side note: Haste says you get an extra attack with any weapon you're holding. I've always read that as granting two extra attacks to duel-wielders (which is about as good as granting one extra attack to a two-hander).)
Alas, that's not the only way it could be read (as you implied by saying that how you've always read it), because it leaves the word "weapon" singular in that sentence and the one following. Thus it could also be read as saying it allows an extra attack with any one weapon you're holding. The language is ambiguous. Note that it excludes natural weapons since you have to be "holding" the weapon.
Because of the ambiguity, I would prefer to err on the low side. Haste is only a 3rd level spell, which means a 6th level party could have a wizard buffing the TWF Fighter or Ranger for +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1, less TWF penalties, plus stat bonuses. Why 4 +6's? Because Haste states the extra attack is granted at the full Base Attack bonus, so your extra off-hand attack actually gains a +5 to hit. This seems wrong. Not to mention, what happens when a Marilith uses Haste? No way a 3rd level spell should be giving any creature 6 more attacks.
What it boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect. You're getting this extra attack from Haste/Speed because it's making you move faster than you normally could during a Full Attack action. Thus to me, a similar effect is anything else that grants you an extra attack in a Full Attack action because of increased speed. I've covered the various feats and Monk abilities in a previous post.
Who ever said that the monk's extra attack was based on a speed increase? It could be a supernatural increase in skill and coordination. And Medusa's Wrath certainly isn't about moving faster than normal, it's about devoting yourself fully to offense because your enemy isn't fighting back.
You are basing your ruling on your subjective impression of what "in-game physics" these rules represent. Which, again, is fine for making a ruling as a DM, but isn't valid when discussing the rules as written.
What it boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect. You're getting this extra attack from Haste/Speed because it's making you move faster than you normally could during a Full Attack action. Thus to me, a similar effect is anything else that grants you an extra attack in a Full Attack action because of increased speed. I've covered the various feats and Monk abilities in a previous post.Who ever said that the monk's extra attack was based on a speed increase? It could be a supernatural increase in skill and coordination. And Medusa's Wrath certainly isn't about moving faster than normal, it's about devoting yourself fully to offense because your enemy isn't fighting back.
You are basing your ruling on your subjective impression of what "in-game physics" these rules represent. Which, again, is fine for making a ruling as a DM, but isn't valid when discussing the rules as written.
You're absolutely correct, the Flurry of Blows or Medusa's Wrath aren't necessarily based on speed. That's a bit of fluff that I picked up from the word "flurry" (verb; to move in an excited or agitated manner), and extended through all the way.
Again, what this boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect? My belief is that it's anything that gives you an extra or additional attack on a Full-Attack action. There is nothing in the RAW that contradicts that, so it's a valid interpretation. No assumptions here.
If you can give me a page reference or link to something that does specifically contradict that, or an official clarification somewhere I'll happily abide by it. I'm only a part-time DM, and I do my absolute best to run with NO house rules.
(Side note: Haste says you get an extra attack with any weapon you're holding. I've always read that as granting two extra attacks to duel-wielders (which is about as good as granting one extra attack to a two-hander).)
Alas, that's not the only way it could be read (as you implied by saying that how you've always read it), because it leaves the word "weapon" singular in that sentence and the one following. Thus it could also be read as saying it allows an extra attack with any one weapon you're holding. The language is ambiguous. Note that it excludes natural weapons since you have to be "holding" the weapon.
Because of the ambiguity, I would prefer to err on the low side. Haste is only a 3rd level spell, which means a 6th level party could have a wizard buffing the TWF Fighter or Ranger for +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1, less TWF penalties, plus stat bonuses. Why 4 +6's? Because Haste states the extra attack is granted at the full Base Attack bonus, so your extra off-hand attack actually gains a +5 to hit. This seems wrong. Not to mention, what happens when a Marilith uses Haste? No way a 3rd level spell should be giving any creature 6 more attacks.
youre right. all three points. in my case the "monk level BaB does grant an extra attack. i misquoted it.
and the flurry is a full attack. etc..and the haste spell on two weapons, and vis a vis the two speed enhaced weapons, it is interpretative, but any weapon is not any ONE weapon.
how is the spell in the above example giving 6 attacks? you would get 3 to start. ? no??? maybe 4 with improved two weapon. so its granting, 2 extra attacks. not 6 more attacks. 6the level fighter can attack four times anyways.. no???
i do think these are grey areas, and the whole deal is covered by interpretation of the rules. its all "haste-like" or similar or grammar or whatever.
i think paizo had a year to get their grammar down, and lots of game tests.. so if they wanted to clarify a rule or effect that was vague, i think it would be very clear. especially in this example. the full attack action means you cant move and attack with haste or any of this. monks flurry, or whatever. what i mean to say is that in all cases, you arent ALWAYS getting an extra attack, youve got to go toe to toe.
so we are all agreeing this requires at least some interpretation of the "similiar" phrase.
i would go with either-
any extra attacks have to be nixed all together, and not pick and choosing though. saying one is from speed, and one is from whatever else is totally subjective.
OR
any enhancements that grant extra attacks dont stack. that covers the definitions of the boots, the spell and the weapons, as well as any other "similiar" magic that might come up.
Again, what this boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect? My belief is that it's anything that gives you an extra or additional attack on a Full-Attack action.
So haste doesn't stack with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting?
I'm glad I don't play in your games.
how is the spell in the above example giving 6 attacks? you would get 3 to start. ? no??? maybe 4 with improved two weapon. so its granting, 2 extra attacks. not 6 more attacks. 6the level fighter can attack four times anyways.. no???
A 6th level TWF Fighter with Hydro's interpretation of Haste:
Primary attack at +6 for BABPrimary attack at +1 for BAB
Offhand attack at +6 from TWF
Offhand attack at +1 from ITWF
Primary attack at +6 from Haste
Offhand attack at +6 from Haste
A Marilith (a six-armed demon) with Hydro's interpretation of Haste (using 3.5 SRD since we don't have a Bestiary yet):
Primary longsword at +25
5 Longswords at +25 from Multiattack
Primary longsword at +25 from Haste
5 more Longswords at +25 from Haste
and a Tail Slap +22 just in case you're not dead yet.
how is the spell in the above example giving 6 attacks? you would get 3 to start. ? no??? maybe 4 with improved two weapon. so its granting, 2 extra attacks. not 6 more attacks. 6the level fighter can attack four times anyways.. no???A 6th level TWF Fighter with Hydro's interpretation of Haste:
Primary attack at +6 for BAB
Primary attack at +1 for BAB
Offhand attack at +6 from TWF
Offhand attack at +1 from ITWF
Primary attack at +6 from Haste
Offhand attack at +6 from HasteA Marilith (a six-armed demon) with Hydro's interpretation of Haste (using 3.5 SRD since we don't have a Bestiary yet):
Primary longsword at +25
5 Longswords at +25 from Multiattack
Primary longsword at +25 from Haste
5 more Longswords at +25 from Haste
and a Tail Slap +22 just in case you're not dead yet.
oh, a monster with 6 attacks. for sure. it hastes all 6. im guessing this thing actually has 6 swords, right? or is it one sword multiattacked already 6 times. then in that case, only +1 more.
haste +1 attack per weapon.
imopinion. :)
only 2 for the fighter though... PC like.
Again, what this boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect? My belief is that it's anything that gives you an extra or additional attack on a Full-Attack action.So haste doesn't stack with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting?
I'm glad I don't play in your games.
Manyshot would in fact work just fine because it doesn't add an extra attack, just an additional arrow on the first attack of your Full Attack action. My reasoning on the rest is already explained.
Manyshot would in fact work just fine because it doesn't add an extra attack, just an additional arrow on the first attack of your Full Attack action. My reasoning on the rest is already explained.Again, what this boils down to is what constitutes a similar effect? My belief is that it's anything that gives you an extra or additional attack on a Full-Attack action.So haste doesn't stack with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting?
I'm glad I don't play in your games.
see to me thats drawing lines. i am not good with rangers and the ranged attack thing, but full attack action? haste spell? no extra arrow as per your logic???
i dont see the difference in adding "an additional arrow" in your first attack. like that is the same as an extra attack with a bow no?
ummm..
should we maybe start a new thread?
that doesnt talk about monks but mentions haste in the title and draw in a bigger crowd maybe???
i think for sure the two weapon haste thing is going to get tromped on. ive seen references all over to how in 3.5 they said no to that and unless the new core rules specifically over rules that, its gonna go down democratically against that idea i am pretty sure.
myself, i am just curious about the monk / flurry of blows / with speed. ;)
see to me thats drawing lines. i am not good with rangers and the ranged attack thing, but full attack action? haste spell? no extra arrow as per your logic???
Manyshot would in fact work just fine because it doesn't add an extra attack, just an additional arrow on the first attack of your Full Attack action. My reasoning on the rest is already explained.
Maybe it's getting late. Read it again, I said it would work just fine. The extra arrow is not an extra attack, thus you can use Manyshot with Haste.
My reasoning on the rest is already explained.
Not really. You say it's because it's a "similar" effect, but you give no real reasoning for that. Haste is pretty specific when it refers to a similar effect -- it uses a speed weapon as an example. Speed weapons specifically refer to haste. In other words, that example is saying "haste doesn't stack with anything that gives you an extra haste attack". They don't use those exact words because then they'd have to define "haste attacks".
By the way, I'd like to point out that your interpretation prevents Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting from functioning. Your interpretation adds the "does not stack with haste-like effects" clause to every feat, class ability, spell, etc that grants extra attacks -- including Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, which don't explicitly state that they stack with each other.
On another front, it's very, very obvious that haste only grants one extra attack. It doesn't say "When making a full attack action, a creature may make one extra attack with each weapon he is holding". It says "When making a full attack action, a creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding". The difference between "each" and "any" is vast, in this context. So, that aspect of your argument is moot (and Hydro is wrong).
My reasoning on the rest is already explained.Not really. You say it's because it's a "similar" effect, but you give no real reasoning for that. Haste is pretty specific when it refers to a similar effect -- it uses a speed weapon as an example. Speed weapons specifically refer to haste. In other words, that example is saying "haste doesn't stack with anything that gives you an extra haste attack". They don't use those exact words because then they'd have to define "haste attacks".
By the way, I'd like to point out that your interpretation prevents Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting from functioning. Your interpretation adds the "does not stack with haste-like effects" clause to every feat, class ability, spell, etc that grants extra attacks -- including Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, which don't explicitly state that they stack with each other.
On another front, it's very, very obvious that haste only grants one extra attack. It doesn't say "When making a full attack action, a creature may make one extra attack with each weapon he is holding". It says "When making a full attack action, a creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding". The difference between "each" and "any" is vast, in this context. So, that aspect of your argument is moot (and Hydro is wrong).
good point - two weapon feats are full attack actions, and not basic attacks. so by both qualifiers, and similar to rapid shot say they wouldnt work with haste at all (let alone twice) :)
but the common consensus is there is no problem with granting one attack no problem
re: haste - two weapons
the each/any wording can be interpreted either way.
its a grammar thing i think,
but what of weapon quality of speed. now logically this is all under the haste umbrella but what it says is that it grants +1 attack to the weapon. and it doesnt stack with other haste effects.
so say you had TWO daggers +1 speed. each would get one attack, and that would not be stacking cuz YOU arent getting an extra attack the weapons individually are?
????
the editors could have and i think would have been very precise about stuff, especially considering haste is a very common effect for folks to want to get at mid levels and the controversy / clarifications in 3.5 WotC. etc...
i think it becomes a house rule to interpretation outside how it its defined explicitly...
but what of weapon quality of speed. now logically this is all under the haste umbrella but what it says is that it grants +1 attack to the weapon. and it doesnt stack with other haste effects.
so say you had TWO daggers +1 speed. each would get one attack, and that would not be stacking cuz YOU arent getting an extra attack the weapons individually are?
Unless those daggers of speed are actually dancing daggers of speed, they have no attacks in and of themselves (and if they are, they cannot activate the speed quality by themselves unless they're also intelligent weapons with the ability to activate their own command words, which is getting rather out of scope of this discussion). Speed weapons grant extra attacks to the user that are only usable with the speed weapon. Since we already know speed is a haste-like effect and thus doesn't stack with any other haste-like effects, including itself, we therefore conclude that the only benefits to wielding two speed weapons are more total duration and the ability to choose which weapon you want to use your extra attack with.
Unless those daggers of speed are actually dancing daggers of speed, they have no attacks in and of themselves (and if they are, they cannot activate the speed quality by themselves unless they're also intelligent weapons with the ability to activate their own command words, which is getting rather out of scope of this discussion). Speed weapons grant extra attacks to the user that are only usable with the speed weapon. Since we already know speed is a haste-like effect and thus doesn't stack with any other haste-like effects, including itself, we therefore conclude that the only benefits to wielding two speed weapons are more total duration and the ability to choose which weapon you want to use your extra attack with.but what of weapon quality of speed. now logically this is all under the haste umbrella but what it says is that it grants +1 attack to the weapon. and it doesnt stack with other haste effects.
so say you had TWO daggers +1 speed. each would get one attack, and that would not be stacking cuz YOU arent getting an extra attack the weapons individually are?
lol
here is the description
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of
speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack
uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifier
appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative
with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
here is the description
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of
speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack
uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifier
appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative
with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Exactly. Let me pseudo-code that for you:
For every weapon I wield:
__Is this weapon a speed weapon?
____If yes, have I already received a hasted attack this round?
______If yes, break
______If no, attack an extra time
____If no, break
Let me walk you through that for a person dual-wielding +1 daggers of speed with both active.
1. Make my standard full attack sequence.
2. Check my first dagger: is it a speed weapon?
3. Yes it is. Have I already received a hasted attack this round?
4. No I havn't. Make an extra attack at my highest attack bonus with this dagger.
5. Check my second dagger: is it a speed weapon?
6. Yes it is. have I already received a hasted attack this round?
7. Yes I have. No more extra attacks for me because hasted attacks don't stack.
Again it isn't the weapon that gets to make the extra attack, it's the character. It's also the character who has the limit on extra attacks per round from haste-like spells and abilities. Doesn't matter how many hastes you stack on yourself, you only get one extra hasted attack.
here is the description
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of
speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack
uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifier
appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative
with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)Exactly. Let me pseudo-code that for you:
For every weapon I wield:
__Is this weapon a speed weapon?
____If yes, have I already received a hasted attack this round?
______If yes, break
______If no, attack an extra time
____If no, breakLet me walk you through that for a person dual-wielding +1 daggers of speed with both active.
1. Make my standard full attack sequence.
2. Check my first dagger: is it a speed weapon?
3. Yes it is. Have I already received a hasted attack this round?
4. No I havn't. Make an extra attack at my highest attack bonus with this dagger.
5. Check my second dagger: is it a speed weapon?
6. Yes it is. have I already received a hasted attack this round?
7. Yes I have. No more extra attacks for me because hasted attacks don't stack.Again it isn't the weapon that gets to make the extra attack, it's the character. It's also the character who has the limit on extra attacks per round from haste-like spells and abilities. Doesn't matter how many hastes you stack on yourself, you only get one extra hasted attack.
lol
i think thats how its gonna go down, but i still consider it interpretive.
again its the grammar. imho
the pseduo code assumes you have an object of "self" loaded to reference. ;)
no one seems to go for the extra attack deal on each weapon.
and i do see your point.
with the dancing daggers.
so THEY cant have extra attacks on themselves, etc..
Alas, that's not the only way it could be read (as you implied by saying that how you've always read it), because it leaves the word "weapon" singular in that sentence and the one following. Thus it could also be read as saying it allows an extra attack with any one weapon you're holding.
It doesn't say "When making a full attack action, a creature may make one extra attack with each weapon he is holding". It says "When making a full attack action, a creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding".
I think that this reading is correct and mine was wrong.
Sorry for starting the tangent. ^^;
I got a connected question with the OP's. It is about monks, and flurry of blows.
I am wondering how Flurry works with Trip. Can monk try to trip with each of his attacks that he gets with flurry? Do these trip attempts get the flurry penalty on CMB?
Do his second (at -5 BAB) or third attacks (at -10 BAB) get these penalty on CMB?
Combat section on this does not mention anything. For monks this means he will trip anyone as with his number of attacks he will manage to defeat DC sooner or latter. With Greater Trip and a later AoO when the target tries to rise it is a killer tactic (if not a bit overpowered).
You can trip in place of a melee attack.
Any bonuses or penalties which would apply to an attack roll also apply to CMB checks with the same weapon.
So, yes and yes, I believe.
I agree with Hydro's assessment in this one. Ki and Medusa's Wrath are not Haste-derived and therefore stack.
I agree with Hydro's assessment in this one. Ki and Medusa's Wrath are not Haste-derived and therefore stack.
me three
I agree with Hydro's assessment in this one. Ki and Medusa's Wrath are not Haste-derived and therefore stack.me three
Four. In this case the monk could: Flurry for 7, Haste for 1, Ki for 1, Medusa's for 2 = 11 attacks.
Requires:
Must use a full attack action to Flurry
Must get haste somehow (or "similar effect")
Must spend a ki point as a swift action
Must meet the requirements for activating Medusa's Wrath