Massive amount of Monk attacks rule - Please help


Rules Questions

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Loopy wrote:
I agree with Hydro's assessment in this one. Ki and Medusa's Wrath are not Haste-derived and therefore stack.

I read the ki thing as being an improved flurry of blows, not a haste effect -- it doesn't provide any of the other advantages of a haste spell (bonus to attack, AC, move, reflex save).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

addy grete wrote:
it doesn't provide any of the other advantages of a haste spell (bonus to attack, AC, move, reflex save).

Same for Weapons of Speed, but they don't stack with Haste because it is a haste effect.


James Risner wrote:
addy grete wrote:
it doesn't provide any of the other advantages of a haste spell (bonus to attack, AC, move, reflex save).
Same for Weapons of Speed, but they don't stack with Haste because it is a haste effect.

OK, let's go back to what the Sacred Scriptures (PFRPG Core Rulebook) actually say. Weapons of Speed don't stack with haste because it is explicitly stated that Speed doesn't stack with haste, or effects *similar to Speed*, not "similar to haste".

Speed: "This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell."

Haste: "Multiple haste effects don't stack. " NOTE that it doesn't say "similar to haste". "Similar" is broader and more vague than "haste effect". What is a haste effect? Just doing one of the things haste does isn't enough: +1 to reflex saves from a trait isn't a haste effect, +1 AC from dodge or from using combat expertise isn't a haste effect, moving a little faster like the barbarian or the monk isn't a haste effect, and neither is just a single isolated extra attack. In other words, the reason why Weapons of Speed don't stack with haste isn't because of the description of Haste, it's because of the description of Speed. Speed isn't a proper, full "haste effect" even if they are similar.

So, whether the the extra attack from the ki point stacks with haste or stacks with Weapons of Speed are two separate, different questions.

Conclusions:
1. Weapons of Speed shouldn't stack with the ki extra attack because they are "similar".

2. Haste stacks with the ki extra attack because it's not a haste effect.


First off, there's been a great debate on this thread, everyone for the most part being very polite, using sources for emphasis on viewpoints, etc. Very nice to see!

It seems the problem lies with the interpretation of how additional attacks (beyond the base iterative attacks) are derived.

The options appear to come from:

Haste (Spell)
Speed (Magic Enhancement)
Class Ability (Flurry of Blows, Ki)
Feat (Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc)

It seems that everyone is on the same page that Haste and Speed do not stack (from very clear RAW), and the rest becomes less clear as people interpret grammar or possibly RAI (Rules As Intended).

My opinion is that Class Abilities and Feats that improve/increase attacks are not considered "Effects", but rather training and mastering of skills... I would see "similar effects" to mean something mostly magical or supernatural that isn't earned through experience... so I would allow Haste/Speed to stack with Flurry, Rapid Shot, Ki Pool, etc.

Only if the ability specifically states that it doesn't stack with haste or similar abilities to gain an extra attack, would I disallow it. (Case in point, the Frenzy ability that the PrC Frenzied Beserker receives, specifically states that the extra attack granted doesn't stack with haste).

Again, this is the way I think the rules are intended, but it's really up to DM/play style and how you want to balance your game.

Grand Lodge

Lamorake wrote:


Haste (Spell)
Speed (Magic Enhancement)
Class Ability (Flurry of Blows, Ki)
Feat (Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc)

I think a good way to break down class features and feats is to look at how they work mechanically.

Class features come with a tag of either Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural. using these 3 forms gives the main definition of how abilities interract.

Haste (Spell) [Spell-like]
Speed (Magic Enhancement) [Spell-like]
Class Ability (Flurry of Blows [Extraordinary], Ki [Supernatural])
Feats [Extraordinary] (Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc)

Extraordinary abilities stack with themselves and either spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities.
Supernatural abilities do not stack with spell-like abilities since both are magical in nature.
These are the basic interpretations that I generally take into consideration unless specified in the abilities description.

So a monk would gain extra attacks from Flurry of Blows, Any extra attacks from feats, and an extra attack from either haste, speed weapon, or Ki ability.

Liberty's Edge

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Quijenoth wrote:
Lamorake wrote:


Haste (Spell)
Speed (Magic Enhancement)
Class Ability (Flurry of Blows, Ki)
Feat (Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc)

I think a good way to break down class features and feats is to look at how they work mechanically.

Class features come with a tag of either Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural. using these 3 forms gives the main definition of how abilities interract.

Haste (Spell) [Spell-like]
Speed (Magic Enhancement) [Spell-like]
Class Ability (Flurry of Blows [Extraordinary], Ki [Supernatural])
Feats [Extraordinary] (Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc)

Extraordinary abilities stack with themselves and either spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities.
Supernatural abilities do not stack with spell-like abilities since both are magical in nature.
These are the basic interpretations that I generally take into consideration unless specified in the abilities description.

So a monk would gain extra attacks from Flurry of Blows, Any extra attacks from feats, and an extra attack from either haste, speed weapon, or Ki ability.

That is completely not true.

For one, Speed is a Supernatural rather than Spell-Like effect. For two, that's not how stacking works. It works by dodge, insight, enhancement, etc, not spell-like or supernatural.

I'd agree that a Monk who's under Haste, flurrying, who spends a Ki point AND meets the requirements for Medusa's Wrath would get all the bonus attacks. Haste would also stack with 2WF (+1 extra attack, not two). If a later race (the Tempi) grants additional attacks as part of a full attack owing to their superior speed, this would be a haste effect and wouldn't stack.


However if they had extra attacks due to extra limbs that would stack in (thri kreen for example) or extra actions due to a racial ability those would stack in (such has the choker with its quickness ability which gives an extra standard or move action each round).

Grand Lodge

Paul Watson wrote:
That is completely not true.

My mistake on the speed weapon being spell-like, I was supposed to mention magic items are either spell-like or supernatural.

I wasnt talking about stacking issues like dodge bonuses I was talking about identical effects and how they interact. (stacking was probably a poor choice of words).

A feat that provides +1 to hit a magical sword that provides +1 to hit a spell that provides +1 to hit and a class ability that also provides +1 to hit will all stack because they are bonuses.

However a spell that provides an effect generally won't stack with a supernatural ability that provides a similar effect. an example besides haste would be web. an entangle spell (entangled condition) wont stack with a web effect (grappled condition) from a supernatural source. You take the most severe condition. however both can co-exist so you have to remove both.

Providing a creature with an extra attack is an effect not a bonus so I still rule that since the extra attack from Ki is a supernatural ability it will not "intereact" with haste or a speed weapon.

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