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I hate to dig up an old thread, but this thread seems to be on the track of what I brought up with the local group here in VA.
When I was running games for RPGA event, prior to their on-line tests, I attended a DM Certification Course. This course is actually much better than their tests were, though the test I have knowledge of are only the 3.0 & 3.5 on-line test. In fact the course did not have a test, it was more of a seminar. I'm would like to know what others think about having a DM Certification Course, this would not be a requirement to run events, but just an extra boon to show players that you are willing to take the extra time to improve your skills so as to provide a better gaming expereince for them.
Below is what I posted, for the most part, to my local group and you can find the discussion at (http://www.meetup.com/Pathfinder-Society-of-Virignia/messages/boards/thread /18218232/#61111502)
Not sure if anyone has ever heard of this, but I did take a DM certification course for the RPGA in the late 90's. Was to get a nice badge and everything, but they were changing things so I never received them. Now they do that on-line test, well, they once did, not sure now.
My point is, I think it should be considered. I have not been around long in this area, but it seems to me that some DMs don't know how to outline/prep a module.
Here are some of the things this would cover if such a course were to be offered:
1) Outlining/Preping a Mod: Topic includes highlighting important text, using different colors for different information, making notes, preping info for various encounters.
2) Getting Into Character: Twice I have had DMs that just didn't really get into even making an effort here and once I just ended up just basically ROLL playing, and sitting waiting my turn bored. DMs don't need to have a distinct voice for every character, but use a more lively voice. The 2 times I talk about, both DMs were just shy of being mono-tone, and didn't seem that into the game.
3) Rewarding Role Playing and Creativity/Thinking Outside The Box: Most mods have great chances for Role Playing, but we tend to get hung up on ROLL playing. Players that Role Play a part good may be given a bonus to their roll for their effort. It a player does a outstanding job at Role Playing, maybe dropping the ROLL at together is an option. Back in the day when the RPGA was run a liitle different, I heard of games run/played by the high ranking DMs/players where the players took the game and went in a totally different direction than how it was written, still completed the objective and not a single die waa cast; and the DM was able to adjust to these events. Now, is that what I'm expecting? No, it is something I'm striving to achive for myself though.
4) Avoiding the TPK/Improv: Have I TPKed and Killed players? Yes, but if a player insist on put on his armor while being attacked by 3 thieves, so be it. However, what if they players didn't reach -10, but ended up captured instead of being out right killed. Maybe those they were fighting wanted to know more about who sent them and how they discover the bad guys. Thus giving the players a chance to still complete the mod.
When I first started trying to DM I didn't know any of this and this was back in the days we scored DMs and players after each mod. Needless to say my tables before this course were scored pretty low and comments reflected the same. That being the case, I really miss being scored as a DM and as a player. I found that it helped me strive for better, even afterwards players would feel free to make comments and tell me what they thought and how I could improve. Still, it was not until after this course that I finally started making true progress. I'm still working to this day on reaching my ultimate goal of ROLE PLAYING and never having to ROLL.
The best way to do this course would to take a Saturday off from running as it seems the best day and have all current DMs and interested people attend. Charge a modest fee that would be used to buy refeshments and food. Go over what I listed above, have DMs also each discuss what they do to prepare and let other DMs chime in on pointers they think may help said DM. The final thing we did in mine was divide into groups where we had 30 mins to create a mini encounter. Afterward the other DMs would act as players as we ran them through the encounter.
Don't know what you think, but I think it could help some current DMs, even those that are good can always learn new things from other DMs and people that have been sitting on the sideline thinking about DMing but unsure how to really DM could be more encouraged to DM games after this course.
Please add any ideas you think may help. I would love to hear more about what other DMs do to prep a mod or how you reward players for being creative and good Role Play.
Thanks for your time and I hope to see some constructive discussion on this thread. Yep, I know it is my 1st post here and some will think that it is such a large topic for a newbie at the forums to bring to light, but I'm just not a forums person and so I try to make my post worth a good discussion.
maldar
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My feeling is that 1) GMing is as much an art as a science, & 2) Gamers love to game the system. Seminars are great. Experience is the best teacher. I say save certification for the workplace. We need more players to shift into the GM's role if this campaign is going to keep growing. Keep it simple.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My local VC and VL (Ryan Bolduan and Andrew Christian, respectively) have talked about doing a "GMing 101" thing, as a few local players have expressed both interest and hesitation. I don't really know where it stands at the moment, though, as a lot of stuff is discussed on a site that's blocked where I work and I often forget to go looking when I get home. :P
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As for seminars...
Why don't VCs (or VLs or Paizo staff) put together on-line seminar videos. Start with the basics (GMing for the first time, GMing at an open event, GMing at a convention, etc.). If campaign staff is involved, there could be a review of the most pressing issues and subsequent videos could be added to address them.
I have a feeling quite a few (though not all) Pathfinder GMs have access to the equipment to make a watchable (and audible) video that could help out new GMs and bring better balance to the more experienced.
Just a thought.
Canadian Maplecakes
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I know that locally here in Winnipeg we're looking at putting together some GM workshop sessions over the next while. Basically bringing local GMs / those interested in GMing, together to discuss situations / problems that occur while GMing and how best to handle them.
A 'meeting of the minds' if you will.
I'm guessing our local VC will report on it once we've run the first! :)
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My local VC and VL (Ryan Bolduan and Andrew Christian, respectively) have talked about doing a "GMing 101" thing, as a few local players have expressed both interest and hesitation. I don't really know where it stands at the moment, though, as a lot of stuff is discussed on a site that's blocked where I work and I often forget to go looking when I get home. :P
We just did one of these in CT last weekend
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I just finished listening to the Enchanted grounds Podcast that had Mike on as as their guest, and he mentioned some of the Atlanta Co-VCs putting some content together that they ran for a GM 101 type offering (and I believe have it recorded). Hopefully we will see that content down the line here that can be used in place of any "certifications" mentioned previously in this thread. I would imagine "certifications" would do more to scare away new GM's that help bring more in, especially for shops that don't have many volunteer GMs.
I know for our area, players have just started stepping up to help run tables so we can keep organized play going. We all learn together as we are playing. Having the videos and materials available online as previously mentioned would be great, but over all, I don't think any materials can prep any one for some of the things you just need to experience and learn by taking the plunge and trying it out.
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Why don't VCs (or VLs or Paizo staff) put together on-line seminar videos
Why does it have to be VC's, or VL's, or Paizo staff? Anyone could do it. Just because we have a fancy volunteer title attached to our name doesn't mean we are automatically the best GM's or even the best teachers. 5-star might be a better gauge, but even then there are exceptions. I have seen plenty of low/non-star GM's who I feel are as good, if not better, at our "craft" than many 5-star GM's.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I was considering doing a pair of seminars at Paizocon: GMing basics and GMing tactics.
I'm not keen on certification being required, but it would be cool if there were an optional certification and some sort of perk GMs could get if they went to the trouble of getting certified. Something along the lines of the 4* perk (but without stepping on the 4* benefit).
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I was considering doing a pair of seminars at Paizocon: GMing basics and GMing tactics.
I'm not keen on certification being required, but it would be cool if there were an optional certification and some sort of perk GMs could get if they went to the trouble of getting certified. Something along the lines of the 4* perk (but without stepping on the 4* benefit).
I might be interested in participating, especially if it was PFS focused.
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What are some of the issues you discussed?I Typed up a Document, I'll publis it on google docs after I finish adding what notes I have to it
We focused more on module preparation, and what pitfalls org play leads to in the module prep. This is the outline I had typed up with spells and situations that a casual GM just getting into org play might want to look into when prepping a module. Here I also linked it on our Pathfinder Society of CT facebook page
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In no way did I mean that there should be a test as there was no test originally. I only mentioned the WotC test as that is what they do now. While knowing the game is important, knowing how to prepare a mod and be able to adjust when needed to character actions is just as important.
What I'm looking at is a seminar that current DMs and those interested in DMing would want to take to gain more knowledge. I know right now that there are those thatthink this would not benefit them since they have 20+ years in the DM chair. Sorry to burst that bubble, but I have seen DMs with less than 3 years total gaming time run a table better that that 20+ year DM.
We can all learn new things and it is also a way for us to share our knowledge and inspire the next generation.
Videos are nice, there is nothing like being able to have agood Q & A session, nor being able to break up into small groups to create a mini adventure and toss out ideas..
You don't need tests or videos, just what we normally do, get together and havea good time.
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I won't go into any more detail at the moment, but I have been looking at the possibility of having GM 101 classes at both Paizo Con and Gen Con. This has been something discussed for the past 6 weeks or so. I didn't want to announce it yet as we are still in the preliminary stages, but I also don't want people planning separate events to later feel we trumped their idea. I will provide more info when it is available.
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I won't go into any more detail at the moment, but I have been looking at the possibility of having GM 101 classes at both Paizo Con and Gen Con. This has been something discussed for the past 6 weeks or so. I didn't want to announce it yet as we are still in the preliminary stages, but I also don't want people planning separate events to later feel we trumped their idea. I will provide more info when it is available.
I would love to see that happen. What would be idea is have the VCs/LCs attend the 1st ones and then have them help present later ones; that way they can come back to their areas and arrange their own.
Wish I could attend myself, but I don't think it will happen for me this coming year, but who knows.
Keep us posted, I would love to see you throw out ideas here to see what the community thinks.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I won't go into any more detail at the moment, but I have been looking at the possibility of having GM 101 classes at both Paizo Con and Gen Con. This has been something discussed for the past 6 weeks or so. I didn't want to announce it yet as we are still in the preliminary stages, but I also don't want people planning separate events to later feel we trumped their idea. I will provide more info when it is available.
I'd be willing to help out with that at paizocon if you'd like. I was talking to Liz about doing something along those lines. You have my email.
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My feeling is that 1) GMing is as much an art as a science, & 2) Gamers love to game the system. Seminars are great. Experience is the best teacher. I say save certification for the workplace. We need more players to shift into the GM's role if this campaign is going to keep growing. Keep it simple.
I have to agree with MR. Miles here. While I would enjoy taking a class or seminar to see what I can learn, and I know i have allot to learn....Most of us have learned the fine art of GMing by Doing.....by GMing. I would be very suspicious of someone who had a "GM certificate" of some sort.
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I have to agree with MR. Miles here. While I would enjoy taking a class or seminar to see what I can learn, and I know i have allot to learn....Most of us have learned the fine art of GMing by Doing.....by GMing. I would be very suspicious of someone who had a "GM certificate" of some sort.My feeling is that 1) GMing is as much an art as a science, & 2) Gamers love to game the system. Seminars are great. Experience is the best teacher. I say save certification for the workplace. We need more players to shift into the GM's role if this campaign is going to keep growing. Keep it simple.
GM certificate by no means states that you are a Master GM, just that you took the time to learn more about GMing. GMs are only as good as watch they have experience. While experience is a good teacher, it should not be the only teacher.
I evaluate Truck Drivers for my company when they join our dedicated account. The ones that have the worst habits are those that have the most experience, 15+ years in some cases. Breaking them of bad habits is hard, but that was what they saw other drivers doing and thought it was the way of things even though it may be illegal.
While GMing is not as intense as driving truck, we still learn by copying others and may not realize that there are better ways, different ways of running a game.
I was going to have a TPK at GenCon, until the coordinator came over and offered a suggestion on how to prevent the TPK altogether. This is the type of thing that expereince does not always teach each person as every person is different. Now I think about what I can do as a GM to make the game more enjoyable. Will I still have players die or TPKs? Yes, sometimes it is unavoidable.
All I'm really asking is that for people not to be closed minded to the idea that this can help some GMs. Is it going to be required? NO. Will it be helpful? YES!
I think that those that are sceptical now and later attend something like this would actually be surprised to learn something.
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a great GM. All I can say is that I try hard, and that at every single table I give it my all.I have seen plenty of low/non-star GM's who I feel are as good, if not better, at our "craft" than many 5-star GM's.Is that a shot at Kyle? ;)
Kidding aside, I thought you were great at U-Con last year. You are easily one of the more prepared GMs I've played with, as well as being extremely rules knowledgeable and tactically creative.
Of course, we all find fault with ourselves. Mostly because we have the ideal of Captain Morgan to aspire to.
GMing class/seminars are a great help. I think GMing experience is more valuable (but doesn't preclude the value of a seminar). But it is also very important for a GM to PLAY, with a variety of GMs of different styles. Even playing with a "bad" GM is a valuable experience in improving your own abilities. And I've learned something from every "good" GM I've played a session with.
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But it is also very important for a GM to PLAY, with a variety of GMs of different styles. Even playing with a "bad" GM is a valuable experience in improving your own abilities. And I've learned something from every "good" GM I've played a session with.
I agree with that 100%.
What needs to also be consisdered is that GMs need to play as well and not always GM. One is to prevent GM burnout. Two is to allow them to see the game from a players viewpoint from time to time; to recall what it is like on the other side of the "screen".
Not sure if anyone has thought of this before, but since there is the on-line role-playing; how about creating a group for just GMs so they can Zero a game before running it locally. This would be good for those areas that only have 1-2 GMs that don't get to play. Does d20Pro support on-line games or just locally networked games. I know there are other programs and with programs like Vent and TS, players could still Role Play. This may even be something the VCs or LCs maybe interested in doing for GMs in their areas. I know I would if my job had more steady hours.
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But it is also very important for a GM to PLAY, with a variety of GMs of different styles. Even playing with a "bad" GM is a valuable experience in improving your own abilities. And I've learned something from every "good" GM I've played a session with.What needs to also be consisdered is that GMs need to play as well and not always GM. One is to prevent GM burnout. Two is to allow them to see the game from a players viewpoint from time to time; to recall what it is like on the other side of the "screen".
+2.
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But it is also very important for a GM to PLAY, with a variety of GMs of different styles. Even playing with a "bad" GM is a valuable experience in improving your own abilities. And I've learned something from every "good" GM I've played a session with.I agree with that 100%.
What needs to also be consisdered is that GMs need to play as well and not always GM. One is to prevent GM burnout. Two is to allow them to see the game from a players viewpoint from time to time; to recall what it is like on the other side of the "screen".
Not sure if anyone has thought of this before, but since there is the on-line role-playing; how about creating a group for just GMs so they can Zero a game before running it locally. This would be good for those areas that only have 1-2 GMs that don't get to play. Does d20Pro support on-line games or just locally networked games. I know there are other programs and with programs like Vent and TS, players could still Role Play. This may even be something the VCs or LCs maybe interested in doing for GMs in their areas. I know I would if my job had more steady hours.
There is an online google group for playing online - Pathfinder Society Online Collective. Not that what you're saying is a bad idea, but for GMs who are looking to play an adventure before any theoretical "Slot 0" online group gets created *wink* *wink*
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I'd agree that the best way of approaching it would be to offer some kind of "Best Practices" certification. You could get it by attending a con seminar, or do an online seminar. It would basically just mean that you've gone over material that covers what the best practices are with being a GM.
What is good about best practices approaches to certification is that they are usually very broad principles that are being aimed for, and don't require that they are done in very specific ways.
If someone does go through with it then they can get another widget icon on their forum name, maybe the stars will sparkle... and you'll get something extra at cons with your name tag.
Experience is the best way to be a good GM, but demonstrating that you've gone over the specific vision of PFS, and have reviewed the various issues with being a GM in detail, helps to reinforce performing those best practices for that individual, but also creates more social pressure others to review the material.
+1
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I have to agree with MR. Miles here. While I would enjoy taking a class or seminar to see what I can learn, and I know i have allot to learn....Most of us have learned the fine art of GMing by Doing.....by GMing. I would be very suspicious of someone who had a "GM certificate" of some sort.My feeling is that 1) GMing is as much an art as a science, & 2) Gamers love to game the system. Seminars are great. Experience is the best teacher. I say save certification for the workplace. We need more players to shift into the GM's role if this campaign is going to keep growing. Keep it simple.
GM certificate by no means states that you are a Master GM, just that you took the time to learn more about GMing. GMs are only as good as watch they have experience. While experience is a good teacher, it should not be the only teacher.
I evaluate Truck Drivers for my company when they join our dedicated account. The ones that have the worst habits are those that have the most experience, 15+ years in some cases. Breaking them of bad habits is hard, but that was what they saw other drivers doing and thought it was the way of things even though it may be illegal.
While GMing is not as intense as driving truck, we still learn by copying others and may not realize that there are better ways, different ways of running a game.
I was going to have a TPK at GenCon, until the coordinator came over and offered a suggestion on how to prevent the TPK altogether. This is the type of thing that expereince does not always teach each person as every person is different. Now I think about what I can do as a GM to make the game more enjoyable. Will I still have players die or TPKs? Yes, sometimes it is unavoidable.
All I'm really asking is that for people not to be closed minded to the idea that this can help some GMs. Is it going to be required? NO. Will it be helpful? YES!
I think that those that are sceptical now and later attend something like...
Maldar, I quite agree, we all have things we can learn from others. If I ever have the opportunity to go to Paizo con, or Gen con I would love to attend these seminars. I know that I myself have allot to learn about GMing and playing.
I would just be suspicious of someone telling me they are a “certified” GM, and showing me their certificate. If you are a skilled GM, you don’t really need a piece of paper.
Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes. If I went to one of those seminars, and I got a certificate, I would probably like it and take it home I might put it up on a wall, if I have space, but I don’t think I would bandy it about a game or convention.
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I see that people are all hung up on the word "Certification" and taking it for more than what it is. You maybe seeing it as I see this whole 1-5 star GM system. Just because you have 5 stars doesn't mean that much to me, all it means is that you ran x number of tables. Not really a good measure of DMing ability, and I'm just as sceptical of that as I am seeing people being sceptical of "Certification".
Then again, I'm from a system where advancing up those different grades ment being scored on your abilities by the players. Something that I miss very much after seeing the aftermath when it was done away with in the early 2000s. I miss it as a GM getting comments about my abilities and as a player, being rated on my roleplaying and effectiveness as a member of the party. Now I see the current system as nothing more than a joke and all you have to do is keep reporting or playing games and you are considered a god or what not. There is no feedback anymore, nothing to guage yourself by as players just pack-up and leave. This is a whole different topic though, something that I see some DMs and players being afaid of as it is hard for them to take critisim. Still something I would once again be glad to pay for as in the old days, that $15-20/yr was actually worth something. Maybe a separate form of play for those willing to be scored would be good. I digress from the topic though.
I would prefer a DM that took the time to improve themselves vs one that thought they were to good to bother with learning new things.
As for someone stating they are a "certified GM"? Well, if they were bragging about it, then whom would not be secptical? Someone that wore a little badge around their neck that said it and when ask about it, stating, "Oh, I took a seminar & they gave this to me afterwards." Anyone may think a little better of sitting down with at a table.
Does it mean good play experience? Does a 5 star GM? Nope.
Personally I would pick to have a person that has taken a seminar than a 5 star GM that has not.
I should not try writing these on my phone and tired, to bed with me.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Rather than certification which implies qualification, it might be better to just give out a minor boon to GMs who attend a training session. A minor reward for the folks who take the time and effort to improve their GMing skills.
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Rather than certification which implies qualification, it might be better to just give out a minor boon to GMs who attend a training session. A minor reward for the folks who take the time and effort to improve their GMing skills.
This is what I was trying to get at and what I'm looking for. The original program was exactly like this, just had "certification" in the name; since it was a known program by some of us, that is why I referred to it as such.
No matter what it is called, I see it as something that can help even the most expereinced GM.
