What's your favorite level range for adventuring?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Thurgon wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1) Around level 9.

2) You are just starting to get powerful and it shows, you have enough skills, health, spells, and gear for some interestng encounters and make them last.

3) Ravanger of Time I8, levels 8-10, it was just an awesome investigation and then final battle. The group was great too, we had an LN Human monk(former)/Wizard, an LN Dark Elf (1st ed (Fiend Folo)style pre Drizzt)) Fighter/Magic-User, an LG Human cleric of St. Cuthbert, a CG Human Female Wizard, an LG Human Fighter (archer style), and a CG Human Illusionist. The RP was great with the two LN spending a ton of time debating the lawful nature of fire in magic vs lightning. The two CG casters constantly getting us into trouble, and the Fighter always complaining about how he never got to use his bow around all these damn spell slingers. The cleric spent his time trying to keep us all from getting in trouble but usually failing. Oh and when we got aged...the fun just got well more so, half the casters got forgetful and would fail to cast their spells, the elf had a bottle of expensive elven wine on him that got aged 1000 year so you know there was a big deal made about how to not de-age that. What an adventure. I would say that we rarely played premades though so many of the best were home made and thus not applicable here.

I do want to point out that was my favorite stand alone. Series...well I am loving the RotRL and all, but nothing touches Homlet - Temple - Slavers - Giants - Decent - Demon Web. Tomb of Horrors (S1 I think) was also great but so freaking deadly. S3 Barrier Peaks was so unreal it was just fun trying to figure out what you were suppose to do and when you did you felt like an idiot for not realizing it sooner. Desert of Desolation series too....


James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1. 1st-7th As player and DM

2. I love the character creation/development of the early levels. And players tend not to feel invincible early on so it's easier to strike terror with less immense confrontations (both Social and Martial).

3. Favorite as a player was a homebrew that I played a ranger/cleric/rogue follower of Olidammara who I got to play as swashbuckly as any swashbuckler.

Favorite as a DM is a new homebrew set in Golorian where the Gods Walk the land and constantly push/pull the Adventurers. Often bungling things with their petty interaction. (Think Greek Mythology)

Brian

Dark Archive

1) 7-12
2) PC's are strong enough that a well prepared DM doesn't run you over but doesn't have to pull any punches. It's when the PC's are powerful but not over-the-top.
3) Night Below - Hit and run tactics to slowly throw the Saughin city into chaos always stuck me as so much fun. Gives you so many avenues to explore and a lot of room to improvise.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I have always been the DM in any long campaign, so my experiences focus on what it feels like to play the NPCs and bad guys.

1) What's your favorite experience level?

7-10th, maybe up to and including 12.

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

I feel like I can really play the bad guys well for players in this range. Once they get higher, the amount of prep time gets to be a bit much, although I absolutely loved playing Karzoug in the last ROTR. As the DM, I like the effort my players have to put into overcoming problems in the middle levels. Too many players become Johnny-One-Notes once they have their favorite feats and magic items. I simply think that players play better in the middle levels and the prep time is within reason.

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

I loved playing Against the Giants -- very vivid memories from the stories and the battles. I enjoyed Sandpoint and books 4, 5, and 6 from ROTR. I worked them into an ongoing Ptolus story I had going. I loved running the Banewarrens from Ptolus. Also, Speaker in Dreams created classic characters and NPCs that have long imprinted on the memories of my players.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested

1) I have to give a range, 7-13.

2) It's the range most of the games I've played in the last few years have been in. It's not quite dead and you're just starting to get a few cool extras or you start to qualify for a few things.

3) Temple of the Frog and its lesser partner, City of the Gods. I loved the mix of sci-fi elements into Temple with a lot of mystery in there. City was a solid ending to it and the loot wasn't half bad either. It helped me get a -5 AC that was well on it's way to -8.


Mostly a GM, but sometimes a player. As both, I always loved the early 1-12 levels, with 3-8 being the best time.

At those levels, there are still fun challenges and still cool things to aspire to. At higher levels (13+) simple things are no longer much of a threat and the abilities aren't as awe inspiring compared to what you have. (In 3.0 and especially 1.0, when you got fireball as a wizard... WOW! So much better in combat than anything else before...)

I've played higer level campaigns and even a few epic, but we never had as much fun at 18+ as we did at 3-8.

Plus, it was easier to scale down games than scale them up...

As for my favoirite published adventures:

Cult of the Reptile God (fun adventure, good mystery, lots of role playing over combat, and Wand of Wonder is the big magic item)

White Plume Mountain/ Lost Caverns of Tsojacanth....Both of them were fun, short, and dangerous, wiht lots of backstory to them...Iggwylv became a recurring enemy for my players

The Goblin Market (Airweaver Games) A fun, silly adventure with a lot of role playing and some odd battles. You travel to an extradimentional faerie market and try to solve a mystery, recover a lost iem, deal with fairy-tale style villains, buy cool stuff, and out wit the locals...and you can pay a goblin to whack another player with a frying pan...who doesn't want that?


1) What's your favorite experience level?

I generally prefer levels 6 and above.

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

I like being sturdy enough that even my wizards can survive a hit, have enough spells to last through an encounter or two, and be developed enough in terms of background, feats, skills, etc. to really have a handle on my character's abilities, likes, dislikes, and so on. I have no upper cap, as I've yet to play above 16th level (until we start the next session in the current campaign). So I don't know if I really enjoy high-level play as I don't have much experience with it (but certainly want to try it out).

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

Back when I DMed, I had 3 favorites. First was the Temple of Elemental Evil, due to the incredible complexity possible for people willing to interact with temple denizens, run from levels 1-10. Second was Dragon Mountain, which I modified into a massive hack-and-slash festival (and still get compliments from the players on) and enjoyed tormenting PCs throughout, run for characters levels 8-22 (with much expansion). Third was an individually-created campaign I ran, one particular adventure full of vampires trying to take over a small town. I gave the PCs memorable fights, strange and unusual NPCs, and we all had a blast (including watching the thief fail to climb into a second-story window. Twice.). That adventure was around level 11 or so.

As a player, my favorite is the current campaign I'm in. I'm enjoying Deathquaker's homebrew world, and I'm loving the fact that the PCs are truly making changes to the world. The paladin and the halfling shadowdancer are now enjoying the fame and forture they earned by rescuing a small town and are investing efforts into the town's continued economic prosperity. In contrast, my character learned she's become the equivalent of the Bogeyman in the southern empire, which tickled me pink. We started at level 14, now we're 17.


Add to my list of ultimate favorites, Maure Castle as well. It's another I haven't run yet, but the read and dungeon, is amazing. It's up there with Red Hand of Doom as what I would consider among the top 5 best adventures for 3.5.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
aeglos wrote:
a spelljammer adventure i don’t remember the name of (but you had to beat a beholder to the heart of an ancient, death star like, beholder artifact – IN SPACE!

SJA1 Wildspace.

It also had one of the simplest, but most compelling, ways to introduce a group of "groundling" PCs to space travel: The PCs are in a town market when a spelljamming ship (literally) "drops anchor" (from 2 miles up) to request heroic assistance in preventing the doom of the world! There are several plot twists and some imaginative development involved, as well.

The Exchange

This thread is helping pick what I should run next, I6 Ravenloft is getting alot of love. I was only thinking about the Kingmaker AP.

Thanks everyone.

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

My favorite experience level is 5-10, because the characters are strong enough to feel heroic in at least some situations, they have access to interesting abilities, but they're not so powerful that the only beings that can challenge them are huge dragons, demons or evil archmages. So there are more adventure possibilities. Also, the complexity of the characters and their enemies are still manageable (I find high level adventures a bit daunting in the number of abilities available to everyone) and the combats are not too long.

My favorite adventure was Egg of the Phoenix (1st edition AD&D), level 7-10 if I remember correctly. I liked the complex plot in that adventure, the interesting NPC's, and the epic situations (saving a realm, going back in time, traveling to other planes)

Dark Archive

28th - 33rd.


Just like to add All That Glitters UK6 IMO was a fun module. The big treasure was a shock to my players and the way swift travel was handled was really fun.
Infact most of the UK series of mods were good.


Dragonchess Player wrote:


SJA1 Wildspace.

It also had one of the simplest, but most compelling, ways to introduce a group of "groundling" PCs to space travel: The PCs are in a town market when a spelljamming ship (literally) "drops anchor" (from 2 miles up) to request heroic assistance in preventing the doom of the world! There are several plot twists and some imaginative development involved, as well.

Yes, that was exactly how it started.

But our DM made the start even crazier.
We where at Myth Drannor on patrol (because we had become junior members of the Knights of Myth Drannor). We had a nasty fight with a disguised rakshasa, the whole room went on fire, after the paladin bullrushed the rakshasa to the ground we barely managed to escape through a gate without knowing where it went. It turned out we landed in Lurien, Land of the halflings. And there the anchor, followed by a rope ladder, came down. We just shrugged and climbed it : -) good second edition times

Shadow Lodge

French Wolf wrote:

This thread is helping pick what I should run next, I6 Ravenloft is getting alot of love. I was only thinking about the Kingmaker AP.

Thanks everyone.

There is a 3.5 version of Ravenlot called Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is pretty dang close to a straight conversion, but has a lot more (possible) details and is pretty well updated to the 3E style. I heartidly advice it.

If you want to go with the I version, it is great as well, but for a PF or 3E game, it might require a lot of DM work.

The Exchange

Beckett wrote:
French Wolf wrote:

This thread is helping pick what I should run next, I6 Ravenloft is getting alot of love. I was only thinking about the Kingmaker AP.

Thanks everyone.

There is a 3.5 version of Ravenloft called Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is pretty dang close to a straight conversion, but has a lot more (possible) details and is pretty well updated to the 3E style. I heartidly advice it.

If you want to go with the I version, it is great as well, but for a PF or 3E game, it might require a lot of DM work.

Thanks, Beckett

Dark Archive

1) Favourite xp levels anywhere from 3 - 12.

2) Why? Lvl 3 the characters are still new heroes but no longer as fragile as 1 or 2nd level. Beyond 12th level the characters begin to feel like comic book superheroes rather than fantasy protagonists.

3) Favorite adventure: Well the original Isle of Dread or Ravenloft module. Tides of Dread from the Savage Tide warrants an honourable mention. All three are fairly non-linear in structure but showcase great settings with lots of possibilities.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

For those playing along at home:

There have been 80 numerical responses to the first question so far.

Average favorite level in 80 responses*: level 10 (rounded up from 9.915625).

*People listing multiple favorite level ranges were scored as having the average of those two level ranges. People favoring an open-ended level range starting at a stated minimum level were scored as favoring a twenty-level range starting at their stated minimum level. People with no favorite level range were not counted.


Epic Meepo wrote:

There have been 80 numerical responses to the first question so far.

Average favorite level: 10 (rounded up from 9.915625).

I hate to quibble with your statistics, but in this case, a straight mean is inappropriate -- because there's no upper boundary, so the guy who answered "21st to 5,000th level!" singlehandedly skews the entire mean through the roof (since you can't have someone answering "negative 4,990!" to compensate). I'd suggest that a median would be a more appropriate measure in this case, or else retain the mean, but treat ALL values > 20 as being 20.


Histogram! Histogram!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'd suggest that a median would be a more appropriate measure in this case, or else retain the mean, but treat ALL values > 20 as being 20.

EDIT: I'll continuing treating each level range of X+ as a range from X to X+20. And I'm just going to ignore level ranges that span more than 20 levels, since that's almost as vague as saying that you favor all levels (a response that I've also been ignoring).

EDIT: Median favorite level in 80 responses: level 7.5

(I'm not saving my data, so recalculating the median value as posts are added won't really be feasible. And no, I'm not going to calculate the mode. Though I'll try to stop by from time to time and update the mean from my previous post.)


Epic Meepo wrote:
EDIT: I'll continuing treating each level range of X+ as a range from X to X+20.

I was more concerned about the person who answered "21st to 37th" or something; that one post disproportionately drags up the mean... although the straight median looks like a statistically useful number. (The mode in this case is meaningless because of the answers reported in terms of ranges, so I'm glad you didn't figure it).

The Exchange

1) What's your favorite experience level?
Favorite range: 1-8
Favorite level: 5

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?
Favorite range: Believable powers and strengths coupled with ease of play and a real sense of mortality for the PCs.
Favorite level: At 5th you usually have a couple magic items and some decent spells and feats. It feels like a happy place where less is more and achievements seem to be sweeter when attained.
3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure? I have 2. The Sunless Citadel for 1-3 levels. The NPCs and monsters had great personality and there was some really great stand-out moments for me (Meepo is forever a part of me). My other is the follow-up, The Forge of Fury for 3-5or6 levels. It was IMO one of the better total dungeoncrawls with a very cool mix of underground terrain and creatures, great tactical challenges, and excellent bosses that were very memorable.

Now that's not a knock against Paizo's adventures it's just that these were the first to evoke emotions that left an imprint that stuck.
If this was a top 10 list there would be 3 Gamemastery and Pfinder Path modules, 3 Dungeon mag adventures, and a couple others like Red Hand of Doom and Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

BTW, What's Bruce Cordell up to these days?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Kirth Gersen wrote:
I was more concerned about the person who answered "21st to 37th" or something; that one post disproportionately drags up the mean...

My average is the mean value of the middle level in each person's range, so there's nothing disproportionate about having two large endpoints. If someone's median favorite level is 29th, it is weighted the same as a median favorite level of 1st (or 8th, or whatever).


Epic Meepo wrote:
My average is the mean value of the middle level in each person's range, so there's nothing disproportionate about having two large endpoints. If someone's median favorite level is 29th, it is weighted the same as a median favorite level of 1st (or 8th, or whatever).

That's the problem. Compare the following reported level preferences: 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 28th. The mean is 11th level, so obviosuly most people prefer something right around 11th level, right? Well, no, actually 4/5 of them prefer something close to 7th. The low end is capped at 0; without providing a cap for the upper limit, there is no way to balance out that 28th with, say, a -21st.


James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1) and 2) In 3e terms, all of them. I enjoy both playing and GM'ing at all levels of play, whether 1st level or 30th+.

3) My favorite published D&D adventure, if I HAVE to narrow it down to a single adventure ... I'd say Greyhawk Ruins. With some work (and side adventures) you could literally complete an adventuring career in the place from grubastic amphibian to borderline demi-gawd.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
My average is the mean value of the middle level in each person's range, so there's nothing disproportionate about having two large endpoints. If someone's median favorite level is 29th, it is weighted the same as a median favorite level of 1st (or 8th, or whatever).
That's the problem. Compare the following reported level preferences: 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 28th. The mean is 11th level, so obviosuly most people prefer something right around 11th level, right? Well, no, actually 4/5 of them prefer something close to 7th. The low end is capped at 0; without providing a cap for the upper limit, there is no way to balance out that 28th with, say, a -21st.

Maybe hogarth was right. We should just throw out averages and do a histogram.


6-10, for levels. The characters are building their own mechanical identities, and it's really these few levels that they start to move away from "generic Strength-base fighter with a ~".

As for adventure?

Old-school Tomb of Horrors. Maybe I'm just masochistic.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Number of posters so far whose range of favorite levels includes levels...
...1st-4th: 36
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...5th-8th: 57
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...9th-12th: 47
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...13th-16th: 18
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...17th-20th level: 14
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...21st+: 11
XXXXXXXXXXX


1) Ha, based on Eric's ranges, I'd have to say levels 9-12.

2) I hate low-level play--the characters have so few options that sometimes combat feels repetitive and boring. Also, there's no way to build any sort of character I've ever wanted to play out of the limited feats and skills (and/or multiclass/PrC options) of low-level characters. It's never until the mid ranges that I get to play the character I wanted to play all along.

On the other hand, high-level play gets sort of wonky and unbalanced, with certain characters stealing the spotlight and others twiddling their thumbs. Of course, that could just be the groups and DMs I've played with (not much in the way of magic items), but it seems hard to balance uber-spellcasters and... anybody, really. (I always play spellcasters, and at higher levels it's frustrating having to intentionally play dumb so as not to render the rogues and fighters entirely useless. I want my world-rending power, thanks, but not at the expense of everyone else's fun.)

3) Sorry, we always run home-brew stuff (unless my DM's slipping pre-fab stuff in without telling us...). I'm a huge fan of the Forgotten Realms, and am recently obsessed with Ravenloft, though.


1st-8th

Because the numbers are doable, a new player to the game can land into the game running, the monsters are easier, and you get to build up to some cool foes.

Favourite Adventure. Very possibly the Whispering Cairn or Burt Offerings.


vagrant-poet wrote:
Favourite Adventure. Very possibly the Whispering Cairn or Burt Offerings.

As far as adventures go, I thought "Smokey and the Bandit" and "Cannonball Run" were two of his best offerings. "Sharkey's Machine" and "Stroker Ace", I didn't like so much.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
hogarth wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
Favourite Adventure. Very possibly the Whispering Cairn or Burt Offerings.
As far as adventures go, I thought "Smokey and the Bandit" and "Cannonball Run" were two of his best offerings. "Sharkey's Machine" and "Stroker Ace", I didn't like so much.

So Hogarth, would you mind telling me how to get coca-cola out of my keyboard? I'm not having any trouble wiping the other half off of my monitor though..


James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1. I am in the minority here, i prefer higher level games starting at around 6 and going on as long as the game ends (6-20).

2. I will freely admit i give more weight to rollplay then role play, though I enjoy both. I feel like prior to 6 you are still building and are probably not doing what your character was designed to do yet. To me levels 1-5 have always been fairly dull. You are very limited in what you do in both combat and out of combat encounters, and they tend to get repetative. I mean when you plan your character do you only plan 1-5? 1-10?(assuming you plan your character ofcourse)After 6 when characters enter a prestige class, both kinds of caster now have that all important 3rd level of spells, Melee types get their second attack, suddenly I stop feeling like we are Mooks with Names, and start feeling heroic.

3. The first 3rd edition I ever played in, years ago in highschool. It was all homebrew and it had a very interesting aspect to it. We all had constant characters that we played, but there was no single dm. Most of the group took turns running adventures for the party that were loosely tied together (mostly by major events, characters, and locations). When I joined the group, it was already in progress and we were level 7. It went on into epic levels untill we got to a point where we felt the campain had run its course.

What made it special for me was the quality of what we got. We played every friday, but with 6 separate DMs (it was a sizable group varying from about 6 to as many as 10), each adventure had alot to it. That was because each DM had weeks to plan and tweak their respective adventure. It gave us time to flesh out encounters, develope npcs, and even do things like create props (my favorite was always the slightly burned diluted glue soaked 'parchments' I used for messages, or scrolls). One of our DM's actually would print out a newpaper for the town our homebase was in. Complete with gossip collumns, news (often involving the party directly or indirectly), cartoons and even some advertisements/classifieds.

In addition to all that, the campain stayed fresh because we got a different style every week. Every dm has a style, whether its crazy action, intrigue, deep story telling and character acting, we had it all in our group, and you got a different piece of it from each dm. It kept things from getting stale, and also kept us on our toes.

My favorite part though was the characters, my first 3rd edition Sorceror has a special place in my heart. Especially because I got to play him all the way up into high levels along side a pretty consistant group of comrades. The relationships between the characters (for good or for ill) became very important because it was a long standing campain. I got to see him grow into a powerful mage who more then being a hero, had the power to shape world events. I also got to see my trusty (or not so trust) companions grow around me.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Epic Meepo wrote:

Number of posters so far whose range of favorite levels includes levels...

...1st-4th: 36
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...5th-8th: 57
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...9th-12th: 47
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...13th-16th: 18
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...17th-20th level: 14
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...21st+: 11
XXXXXXXXXXX

That's an excellent and interesting post, and a great visual example of why game companies tend to focus on lower and mid levels. Especially if, when you factor in the costs to make and produce a game, it requires a set number of "x" in order to make money on the product. If no money is made, there's no money to make the next product, after all.


James Jacobs wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:

Number of posters so far whose range of favorite levels includes levels...

...1st-4th: 36
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...5th-8th: 57
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...9th-12th: 47
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...13th-16th: 18
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...17th-20th level: 14
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...21st+: 11
XXXXXXXXXXX
That's an excellent and interesting post, and a great visual example of why game companies tend to focus on lower and mid levels. Especially if, when you factor in the costs to make and produce a game, it requires a set number of "x" in order to make money on the product. If no money is made, there's no money to make the next product, after all.

This may be something of a misnomer - there have never been very many high-level adventures published in 2e or 3e. It would be disappointing to never see higher level material supported though.


James Jacobs wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:

Number of posters so far whose range of favorite levels includes levels...

...1st-4th: 36
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...5th-8th: 57
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...9th-12th: 47
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...13th-16th: 18
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...17th-20th level: 14
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...21st+: 11
XXXXXXXXXXX
That's an excellent and interesting post, and a great visual example of why game companies tend to focus on lower and mid levels. Especially if, when you factor in the costs to make and produce a game, it requires a set number of "x" in order to make money on the product. If no money is made, there's no money to make the next product, after all.

I think this has become something of a self fulfilling profecy, in terms of high level stuff. I think it is HARDER to make high level games, it takes more work and more planning, and in terms of published adventures you probably need to include advice for dms on how to deal with thier players specific abilities. I think many of those attempts at higher level games have failed to provide the support needed for the more complex play and thus turned people off to high level play further reducing sales, and interest in it, and thus reducing the number of products etc.

It will probably take some really great high level products to break this vicious cycle (wink wink)

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1) My favored experience levels are 8th - 14th.

2) I like those levels because there are alot of options availible but not the craziness that comes with 9th level and epic abilities.

3) Against the giants is my favorite adventure. Strong, powerful opponets that resulted in some great fights. I think the module covered 6- 10.

Edit: The chart really shows alot of folks like mid to early levels. I prefer to have my character developed thou.

Liberty's Edge

Kolokotroni wrote:

I think this has become something of a self fulfilling profecy, in terms of high level stuff. I think it is HARDER to make high level games, it takes more work and more planning, and in terms of published adventures you probably need to include advice for dms on how to deal with thier players specific abilities. I think many of those attempts at higher level games have failed to provide the support needed for the more complex play and thus turned people off to high level play further reducing sales, and interest in it, and thus reducing the number of products etc.

It will probably take some really great high level products to break this vicious cycle (wink wink)

Part of the problem here is many (most? all?) 3x high level adventures have been trash. Oh, the plots are interesting enough, I suppose, but I don't think the writers of said adventures really understood what characters level 16-20 were capable of mechanically, and how "outside the box" the writer needs to think. You cannot write a high level adventure using any assumptions you can rely on for lower level adventures.

Scarab Sages

Kind of new into Pathfinder, and 3.5 after all, having played mainly other RPGs and DMed mainly (ahem) 4E. Don't ask me why my players don't want to switch that campaign to Pathfinder. If you want to know badly enough, I'll make another thread.

That said...

1) I'm really liking levels 5-10. I'm the wizard (a diviner), so I'll get my lvl 8 feature soon, and I have 3rd lvl spells and will get some 4th and 5th. We feel strong and have a lot of options but have to make the right calls to survive. And, as long as we're smart and don't have horrible luck, we do survive. (although a green dragon almost ate our monk).

2) See part one.

3) Again, kind of new. In general I like homebrew stuff, and when my friend (the current DM) and I start co-dming I'll mainly write and he'll mainly run it. But currently we're playing Red Hand of Doom, and it's hella fun. We just got through a part we dubbed "The Battle of Greasy Bridge". Can you guess why?

-Drillboss

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
houstonderek wrote:
Part of the problem here is many (most? all?) 3x high level adventures have been trash. Oh, the plots are interesting enough, I suppose, but I don't think the writers of said adventures really understood what characters level 16-20 were capable of mechanically, and how "outside the box" the writer needs to think. You cannot write a high level adventure using any assumptions you can rely on for lower level adventures.

Agreed. I browsed the high-level encounters in one book. A CR 20 encounter was a death slaad Clr5, and three gray slaads (sorc, rogue, fighter). The set piece was platforms connected by stairs in a windstorm cavern. My first thought was 'why would the character bother with stairs?' and second 'why are these four expected to ambush the party?'. 20th level characters would walk right over them.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

TriOmegaZero wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Part of the problem here is many (most? all?) 3x high level adventures have been trash. Oh, the plots are interesting enough, I suppose, but I don't think the writers of said adventures really understood what characters level 16-20 were capable of mechanically, and how "outside the box" the writer needs to think. You cannot write a high level adventure using any assumptions you can rely on for lower level adventures.
Agreed. I browsed the high-level encounters in one book. A CR 20 encounter was a death slaad Clr5, and three gray slaads (sorc, rogue, fighter). The set piece was platforms connected by stairs in a windstorm cavern. My first thought was 'why would the character bother with stairs?' and second 'why are these four expected to ambush the party?'. 20th level characters would walk right over them.

Agreed. No self-respecting high-level adventure should have encounters with anything except monsters the PCs are actively looking to fight. Any sort of fight against opponents whose deaths don't directly further the PCs' agenda will almost certainly be side-stepped.

On a somewhat related note, if I see one more Dungeon Where Teleportation Doesn't Work in a high-level adventure, someone needs to be banished to a dungeon where teleportation doesn't work.


James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

Good question, first off.

1) 4th-8th level, with 4th level being the sweet spot.

2) The mechanics don't feel cumbersome, combat is swift and frightening, and things are easily manageable at these levels. Characters are strong enough to stand out, but still capable of failure.

3) My favorite Mod would have to be War of the Burning Sky, the Fire Forest. Vivid imagery, and the whole thing with Indomitability was great. For homebrew, it would be an adventure I wrote called The Dream Thief, wherein the frontier town of Owen's Mill was being plagued by the undead shade of a man that had been lynched by the Nuetral Evil community. The NPC's the players commonly interacted with were good, and the shade was syphoning energy from the souls of the children and the towns hateful energy. Very Moody and town driven, had a lot of fun with it.

Wayfinders

1. Level 6
2. You start getting the "good stuff" - 3rd level spells, multiple attacks, another feat, plenty of HP and skill points, you can handle cool monsters, your Diplomacy and Disable Device skills are good enough to accomplish lots of cool stuff, you can afford nice but not overpowered magic items, you're still weak enough that there is lots to fear, etc.
3. Seven Days to the Grave... because I'm running it right now and everyone is loving it, and it's fun DMing because the players are constantly distressed by all the disease going around.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

James Jacobs wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:

Number of posters so far whose range of favorite levels includes levels...

...1st-4th: 36
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...5th-8th: 57
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...9th-12th: 47
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...13th-16th: 18
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...17th-20th level: 14
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
...21st+: 11
XXXXXXXXXXX
That's an excellent and interesting post, and a great visual example of why game companies tend to focus on lower and mid levels. Especially if, when you factor in the costs to make and produce a game, it requires a set number of "x" in order to make money on the product. If no money is made, there's no money to make the next product, after all.

Except if you also look and add some numbers together, you'll see that the people who prefer campaigns 13-16th level AND up (and I'd think a high level adventure would be from 15th-20th level or higher), they outnumber the people who prefer levels 1-4, which seems to be the levels many modules are at.

Sure, it shows that of the people who are answering this poll (who have unrestricted Internet access and reads this Web site), most people prefer 5th to 12th level. But it also shows there IS a market, albeit a little smaller, for higher level games.

And they are possibly a different market than the people who buy the lower level adventures. There is a demand that's not being fed; if it is supplied, can you really say that the demand might not answer with the increase?

If you, say, published ONE high level adventure/module/scribble on a napkin a year, you might still bring in some funds from an untapped market (which might expand if you feed into it), while still focusing the majority of your adventure production on the mid-level adventures which you can count on to sell well.


1) Favorite Levels: 5-10.

2) Why?: Access to greater toys and powers without entirely removing the PCs from the realm of "reality" depicted by the social setting from which they originally emerged. In other words, I don't like "level inflation" throughout the campaign setting needed to logically explain how any degree of balance is maintained among the various power factions/monsters.

3) Favorite adventures: Homebrew adventures tailored to character backgrounds and responsive to their actions. (To this end, I greatly enjoyed and frequently used DUNGEON articles such as Side-Treks and Critical Threats, as well as similar older products such as the Books of Lairs.)


James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1) Level 5

2) It is the highest level I've played at. Characters seem to get more flexible and start to get abilities like 3rd level spells and such.

3) My favorite adventures include Sunless Citadel and Queen of the Demonweb Pits. I like Sunless Citadel because of the kobolds, especially Meepo, the conflict between the kobolds and goblins and the twig blights. The dungeon it's self though isn't one of my favorite parts of the adventure, despite some interesting parts it's too linear. Queen of the Demonweb Pits is a favorite because it is weird basically. You've got a place where things just don't work the same way as the material world. There's also seem interesting encounters. It still had some unfulfilled potential I think, however.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

I thought I'd create this thread to find out what everyone's favorite level to play and adventure are at! Please drop in a post here and answer the following questions if you're interested:

1) What's your favorite experience level?

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

1) 1st

2) 1st level fun! Every thing can kill you! nothing is a sure thing and gaining that 1st magical item...well it was like , WOW!
3)My books are in storage so I can't remeber the name, but the 1st part of the Savage Tide remains my favorie. My character was killed in the 1st combat by some monster bug. Stupid crit. That still remains one of the most fun things i have every played, because that 1st fight made it clear, this was not a walk in the park. It set the tone and style for the rest of the game in a very clear manner.

Scarab Sages

1) What's your favorite experience level?
Level 16 (but as a range I have always liked 12-18 best; the PFRPG makes me think I should add in 19 and 20)

2) Why is that your favorite experience level?
There are enough levels that your character concept can be filled out and your PC has the history and connection to the world around him to really make an impact. You are more of a co-author of adventures with the DM. At lower levels, you are much more the recipient of the world as designed by the DM; at these levels you have the ability to make changes to the world and really engage in the world-building process.

3) What's your favorite adventure, and what level was it for? Why is it your favorite adventure?

I have two.

Bloodstone Wars because it offers high level PCs the chance to really dig in and participate in a war scenario with political stakes that matter without necessitating the 'small squad' approach favored recently in war-game scenarios or requiring truly cosmic-level interactions. It has the Assassins Run mini-adventure built in so you can scratch your dungeon crawl itch and it avoids the silliness that seems to creap into a lot of other high level adventures (Throne of Bloodstone, for example).

A Paladin in Hell is my other favorite for the reason that here,truly, is an epic adventure with touches of Planescape (but no requirement that you get into all the zaniness there), founded solidly in the mythos designed in the original AD&D Monster Manual, and yet never spinds out of control into being some open-ended endless quest (as the original drow supermodule could, and did the 2 times I played it; as a DM it kept itself much more contained). Monte Cook wrote a classic and even running it now as a DM with PFRPG rules it holds up as great fun.

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