Monk or Monk / Druid?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


We're starting up a new campaign. I want to make a monk, but I've also been dying to play a druid, too. So I'm stuck.

What do you guys think? Do you have any favorite builds for such a character?

So far I'm thinking Monk 2/Druid 18, but then I think I'd really like to just go monk due to the flurry increases and AC increases, etc.

Any advice?


I found this, too, from the SRD:

Druid: the druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.

Gain:
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

Lose:
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions)

That looks pretty nice, actually.

Liberty's Edge

neceros wrote:

I found this, too, from the SRD:

Druid: the druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.

Gain:
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

Lose:
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions)

That looks pretty nice, actually.

Can you supply a link to that? I couldn't find it when I went looking.


Robert Maughan wrote:
neceros wrote:

I found this, too, from the SRD:

Druid: the druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.

Gain:
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

Lose:
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions)

That looks pretty nice, actually.

Can you supply a link to that? I couldn't find it when I went looking.

Its here.

Its a variant from Unearthed Arcana, a pretty cool one at that. Of course, losing the wild shape tends to make the druid rely more on spellcasting and melee combat, which depending on where you can pull spells from, results in a situation where your mileage may vary wildly.


I don't think the two classes mix.

Monks are lawful.

Druids are neutral. I believe this means NG, N, or NE, rather than LN,N,CN.

I may be wrong, as they are specifically stated to be "any neutral." But LN rubs me wrong.

If someone would like to correct me, please feel free. I don't think they were mixable in the past.


Takamonk wrote:

I don't think the two classes mix.

Monks are lawful.

Druids are neutral. I believe this means NG, N, or NE, rather than LN,N,CN.

I may be wrong, as they are specifically stated to be "any neutral." But LN rubs me wrong.

If someone would like to correct me, please feel free. I don't think they were mixable in the past.

Before 3e, a druid was strictly True Nuetral. Since 3e, they can be any alignment that has nuetral as a component, so 5 possible out of 9, LN, NG, N, NE, CN.

I'm assuming PF keeps the same definition of any nuetral, in order to keep the backwards compatability a little more even.

Scarab Sages

neceros wrote:

We're starting up a new campaign. I want to make a monk, but I've also been dying to play a druid, too. So I'm stuck.

What do you guys think? Do you have any favorite builds for such a character?

So far I'm thinking Monk 2/Druid 18, but then I think I'd really like to just go monk due to the flurry increases and AC increases, etc.

Any advice?

I've been having great success with the monk. My dwarf monk is currently level 9, and was made from a 20 point build. To give some perspective on what you can do with a monk in the new addition, here are some facts about him.

raw stats of note: str 16, dex 14 (+2 from leveling), wis 16 con 12
10k for a belt of physical might? (dex +2, str+2) for an 18 str, 16 dex
+1 amulet of the mighty fist for 5k
boots of elvenkind (+5 acrobatics) for a +20 total in that skill

feats of note: power attack, cleave, improved trip, wpn focus unarmed

As for performance, on a flurry he is +13/+13/+8/+8 doing d10+5 per strike. When power attacking against low AC monsters, its 11/11/6/6 and d10+9. I typically see 2, sometimes 3 hits per flurry in most combats. When I can flurry, my character has put up numbers similar or better to our half orc 2handed specialist. Not too shabby.

His CMB is a 13, and his CMD is a whopping 26! So manuevers also, are pretty solid options for him. A level 9 fighter should have a CMD of about 24-27. I can tumble past them on a 5-8+. Tripping is at a 9-12+. Still quite effective.

Overall, this rambling mess of a post is intended to tell you play a monk! Its world better than 3.5


I only have the following to add.

Shilleleigh <SP>. Imagine flurry of blows with the quarterstaff after it's had this little wonder cast on it.

Batts


I think the archetype of the "hermit of the woods" would fit wonderfully with the monk/druid. A L/N druid would merely be one follows a strict code in regards to stewardship of nature. He could study and meditate on the patterns and complexity of nature ...

... plus the shillelagh thing would be cool ... as would barkskin on the monk.

I think I may have to try the druid/monk myself sometime


I used it once. Pretty good actually, with the UA variant. Magic fang, barskin and such things. It's not very hard to combine the emulate nature of druid with the study of the body of the monk.


Well, I went with Monk 1. No variants. I'm considering the Pyrokineticist from EPH as a PrC (Of course getting rid of some of the more lame requirements so I can enter).

It doesn't do much for my monk stuff, and I'm worried about that. I've always wanted to try a pyro, as they have some neat abilities.

Any PrCs people can comment on for a monk?


I'm playing a monk 1 / druid 12 (with DM's blessing) and spends all his time in earth elemental form. I'm LN but works because of his patron (basically a wizard who turned herself into an earth elemental)

Because of the monk level I have the highest AC of the group because my wisdom is getting added to me AC and probably the highest CMD as well I susepect. I have the highest HP's in the group when going into large or huge elemental form. And is immune to crits, sneak attacks and poisen i.e rogues. Adding that second level of monk would have given him evasion, and that was probably pushing it a little :)

I always have 2 greater magic fangs spells going (one for natural weapons and one for slam) so thats +3. Improved Natural attack means I do more damage with the slam, and if I can't hit with the second attack I switch to flurry without any penalty because of the changes to monk, which means basically more damage as I'm liking to hit more. And then I always have the option to summon up some earth elementals and increase my overal damage as well.


have another idea, what about a melee druid monk?

Average bab, average AC, almost all of the druid goodies.
Monk 1/druid 19
I might be wrong my friends, but as I’m aware of, Flurry of blows keeps on progressing with the BAB, not with monk levels.

Soooo, putting this idea to work, how about a druid with flurry of blows wielding a Quarter staff flurrying enemies with spikes and shillelagh, plus barkskin for AC bonuses.

Have in consideration that maybe this character doesn’t need that much Feats, we can have a good melee monk with Animal companion for whatever purposes you want, summoning elementals and whacking NPC with a super spikey super strong unbelievable Ironwood shillelaghed quarterstaff?

For feats we can have ashbound, spell focus (conj), augment summoning and stuff for the elementals, without forgetting the Rashemis Elemental summoning and stuff from UE.

Bab will be rescued by buffs and stuff, and elemental summons will help you escape and do other tactics while you move.

What do you think? Can you help me optimize this build

Mario Rocket
My life as a Lion.


neceros wrote:

We're starting up a new campaign. I want to make a monk, but I've also been dying to play a druid, too. So I'm stuck.

What do you guys think? Do you have any favorite builds for such a character?

So far I'm thinking Monk 2/Druid 18, but then I think I'd really like to just go monk due to the flurry increases and AC increases, etc.

Any advice?

Could also i believe i'd have to check the prc, do a druid/monk/sacredfist, and gain alot of monk and druid benefits. i know sacred fist is 3.5 but its pretty transferable to 3.p i've considered this using a cleric with my own monk however... with a large group may be joining us i will probably stick with my pure monk.


Lokai wrote:
neceros wrote:

We're starting up a new campaign. I want to make a monk, but I've also been dying to play a druid, too. So I'm stuck.

What do you guys think? Do you have any favorite builds for such a character?

So far I'm thinking Monk 2/Druid 18, but then I think I'd really like to just go monk due to the flurry increases and AC increases, etc.

Any advice?

Could also i believe i'd have to check the prc, do a druid/monk/sacredfist, and gain alot of monk and druid benefits. i know sacred fist is 3.5 but its pretty transferable to 3.p i've considered this using a cleric with my own monk however... with a large group may be joining us i will probably stick with my pure monk.

Druid monk sacred fist would be nice for H2H but I wouldn't want to give up wild shape, venom immunity, thousand faces I don't think. Those abilities are just hard to replicate and the druid gets them for free. Also not being able to ever use a weapon can be pretty bad.. there's some things that you just don't want to touch.

edit: I think the real point in sacred fist is to abuse righteous might + monk damage, then later on miracle for giant size from complete arcane.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
grasshopper_ea wrote:

. there's some things that you just don't want to touch.

That's what Summon Nature's Ally and Call Lightning Storm are for. :)


Personally I think a monk does not fit well with the druid class.... but of course you should be able to play what you want.

To me monks are more about spiritual enlightenment through their own inner self with comparisons to nature while a druid is purely nature oriented.

Sczarni

Well flavorwise I think it could fit. A Tiger style kung fu monk who through it´s deeper connection with nature evolves so much that it learns how o become a tiger.

sweet.


Frerezar wrote:

Well flavorwise I think it could fit. A Tiger style kung fu monk who through it´s deeper connection with nature evolves so much that it learns how o become a tiger.

sweet.

He could even have one as a pet. wink wink


I was allowed to level dip once into monk for my druid as my fluff was that he was taught how to fight correctly. Then as he spends all his time in earth elemental form, he is just a large monk :)


Why don't you pick up martial weapon at 1st level and use a Guisarme?
Monk w/ reach weapon: You can fight armed or unarmed while wielding a reach weapon using elbows, knees, feet or head.
Guisarme: 9 gp, 2d4 x3 — 10 lbs. S reach CRB
M1: stunning fist, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, Combat reflexes, martial weapon Guisarme, improved initiative. Use your reach and combat reflexes to trip opponents. you're armed (no attacks of opportunity) and you get +4 bonus for using 2 hand weapon. On the move, use bull rush to knock them prone (same pluses applies). then move in on your prone opponents and follow up with your weapon or FOB (whichever does more damage). If they move or try to get up you get free trip attacks to keep them down. If you get grappled, use stunning fist for release and retain your weapon.
M2 dodge
M3 power attack, use on your prone opponents.
M5 lighten weapon (prerequisite. don't worry about this yet)
M6 improved bull rush (more pluses for bull rushing)
M7 improved trip (ditto)
M9 improved evasion, greater bull rush gives you a free hit on prone opponents, good time to power attack.
M10 improved critical, apply to your Guisarme.
M11 Improved lighten weapon (a large Guisarme does 2d6 (3d6 if you use oversize and take -2. cheaper then power attacking) damage and your reach is 15-20ft(25-30ft oversize). for people 10 ft. or closer 5 ft. step, then weapon or FOB, whichever does more damage at the time.


Where is Lighten Weapon (and improved) from please?

-- david


Wow talk about threadomancy guys!


DM Papa.DRB wrote:

Where is Lighten Weapon (and improved) from please?

-- david

Feats‎ > ‎3rd Party Feats‎ > ‎Kobold Press‎ > ‎Combat Feats - 3rd Party - Kobold Press‎ > ‎

Lighten Weapon (Combat) You can balance heavy weapons, making them easier to wield.

Prerequisite: Str 13, BAB +3.

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon. When using a weapon of that type you may reduce the effort required to wield it by one step but suffer a −2 penalty to hit with that weapon. This allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger as if it were your own size, use a two-handed weapon in one hand, or a one-handed as a light weapons.

Normal: Weapons 1 size category larger increase the effort required to wield them by one step: light becoming one-handed, one-handed becoming two-handed, and two-handed becoming un-wieldable. Two-handed weapons may not be used one-handed. Using a one-handed weapon in your off hand results in a −2 penalty to all of your attacks (in addition to other off-hand penalties that may apply).

Special: The effect of this feat does not stack with other feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size. You may take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different type of weapon.

Example: Rogar the human fighter takes Lighten Weapon and chooses greatsword. He can now use a Medium greatsword in one hand with a −2 penalty to hit, gaining 1 x Strength bonus to damage. He can also wield a Large greatsword in two hands with a −2 penalty to hit and adding 1.5 x Strength bonus to damage.


DM Papa.DRB wrote:

Where is Lighten Weapon (and improved) from please?

-- david

Feats‎ > ‎3rd Party Feats‎ > ‎Kobold Press‎ > ‎Combat Feats - 3rd Party - Kobold Press‎ > ‎

Improved Lighten Weapon (Combat)

You have mastered the use of oversized weapons.

Prerequisite: Lighten Weapon, BAB +8.

Benefit: Choose a weapon when taking this feat. When using the Lighten Weapon feat, you do not suffer the associated −2 penalty to attack when using that feat with your chosen weapon.

Both of them are on the d20pfsrd.


Alejandro Acosta wrote:
DM Papa.DRB wrote:

Where is Lighten Weapon (and improved) from please?

-- david

Feats‎ > ‎3rd Party Feats‎ > ‎Kobold Press‎ > ‎Combat Feats - 3rd Party - Kobold Press‎ > ‎

Lighten Weapon (Combat) You can balance heavy weapons, making them easier to wield.

A quick question on Lighten Weapon if you don't mind a quick hijack of the thread? :)

With this feat a medium creature can wield a large greatsword two handed, the feat imposes a -2 penalty. Do you also get a -2 penalty for using a weapon not your size. The weapon is still large, the feat just enables you to wield it which is not even possible without the feat (large two handed weapon).

Thanks,
Konrad


Normally, if a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature CAN'T WIELD THE WEAPON AT ALL.

normal medium human can use light one hand or 2 hand only. Can't wield anything larger. incorrect size means if I use a 2 hand weapon one handed (no feat required) -2.

with lighten weapon, can use a large weapon 2 handed for -2. otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it at all. The keyword is OVERSIZE WEAPON (like Cloud from FFVII with his ginormous Materia Blade).


Alejandro Acosta wrote:

Normally, if a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature CAN'T WIELD THE WEAPON AT ALL.

normal medium human can use light one hand or 2 hand only. Can't wield anything larger. incorrect size means if I use a 2 hand weapon one handed (no feat required) -2.

with lighten weapon, can use a large weapon 2 handed for -2. otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it at all. The keyword is OVERSIZE WEAPON (like Cloud from FFVII with his ginormous Materia Blade).

I understand lighten weapon allows a medium creature to use a large two handed weapon where as without the feat he couldn't, I actually say that in my post. :)

My question is, the feat gives a medium creature the ability to wield the large 2handed weapon at a -2, no problem there. But the weapon still is an Inappropriately Sized Weapon for a medium creature. Do they also still get the -2 for this. You get -2 even if you are wielding a small lighthanded weapon since its not sized for you (not balanced right, different length screws up your attack, etc.). Lighten weapon makes no mention of helping with this penalty that I can read. It simply makes a weapon feel lighter in your hand (you know how to balance heavy weapons in such a way that a 2handed weapon can be easily used in one hand by you).

p144 Core Rulebook...

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

So lighten Weapon feat makes the large greatsword light enough to wield by a medium creature, but the sword is still a large weapon and is still hard to wield (not balanced for medium creatures, etc.)so they would take a further -2 I think,

Thanks,
Konrad


Morval wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

Normally, if a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature CAN'T WIELD THE WEAPON AT ALL.

normal medium human can use light one hand or 2 hand only. Can't wield anything larger. incorrect size means if I use a 2 hand weapon one handed (no feat required) -2.

with lighten weapon, can use a large weapon 2 handed for -2. otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it at all. The keyword is OVERSIZE WEAPON (like Cloud from FFVII with his ginormous Materia Blade).

I understand lighten weapon allows a medium creature to use a large two handed weapon where as without the feat he couldn't, I actually say that in my post. :)

My question is, the feat gives a medium creature the ability to wield the large 2handed weapon at a -2, no problem there. But the weapon still is an Inappropriately Sized Weapon for a medium creature. Do they also still get the -2 for this. You get -2 even if you are wielding a small lighthanded weapon since its not sized for you (not balanced right, different length screws up your attack, etc.). Lighten weapon makes no mention of helping with this penalty that I can read. It simply makes a weapon feel lighter in your hand (you know how to balance heavy weapons in such a way that a 2handed weapon can be easily used in one hand by you).

p144 Core Rulebook...

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

So lighten Weapon feat makes the large greatsword light enough to wield by a medium creature, but the sword is still a large weapon and is still hard to wield (not balanced for medium creatures, etc.)so they would take a further -2 I think,...

no. Actually a 2 handed weapon is medium size. A 1 hand is one size smaller and a light is 2 sizes smaller. a large weapon couldn't be wielded by a medium creature at all. without the feat you couldn't use it at all.


Alejandro Acosta wrote:

Why don't you pick up martial weapon at 1st level and use a Guisarme?

Monk w/ reach weapon: You can fight armed or unarmed while wielding a reach weapon using elbows, knees, feet or head.
Guisarme: 9 gp, 2d4 x3 — 10 lbs. S reach CRB
M1: stunning fist, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, Combat reflexes, martial weapon Guisarme, improved initiative. Use your reach and combat reflexes to trip opponents. you're armed (no attacks of opportunity) and you get +4 bonus for using 2 hand weapon. On the move, use bull rush to knock them prone (same pluses applies). then move in on your prone opponents and follow up with your weapon or FOB (whichever does more damage). If they move or try to get up you get free trip attacks to keep them down. If you get grappled, use stunning fist for release and retain your weapon.
M2 dodge
M3 power attack, use on your prone opponents.
M5 lighten weapon (prerequisite. don't worry about this yet)
M6 improved bull rush (more pluses for bull rushing)
M7 improved trip (ditto)
M9 improved evasion, greater bull rush gives you a free hit on prone opponents, good time to power attack.
M10 improved critical, apply to your Guisarme.
M11 Improved lighten weapon (a large Guisarme does 2d6 damage. Cheaper then power attacking) and your reach is 15-20ft. For people 10 ft. away, 5 ft. step, then weapon or FOB, whichever does more damage at the time.

Edit: You can't wield weapons greater than large (a 2 handed weapon is medium).


neceros wrote:

We're starting up a new campaign. I want to make a monk, but I've also been dying to play a druid, too. So I'm stuck.

What do you guys think? Do you have any favorite builds for such a character?

So far I'm thinking Monk 2/Druid 18, but then I think I'd really like to just go monk due to the flurry increases and AC increases, etc.

Any advice?

Below is the route I'm taking with my Monk. Don't ever expect a monk by himself to deal plethoras of damage. If you want damage I don't recommend monks. As everyone else I would recommend a fighter or magus. Personally I'm more of a "pester you to death" kind of player in which I generally tend to draw attacks of opportunity from opponents, trip them, then flurry them. If they try to get away, op attack with the stand still feat, then they stay close by for more flurry of death.

The good thing about this build is you will have seriously high defenses vs trip, bull rush, disarm, melee/ranged attacks, good attack roll bonuses, poor fort save but high reflex and will. Spell resist that basically knocks down spell attacks to a 50% chance to hit for the most part. Immunities to various diseases and poisons. High chance to confirm critical hits.

This monk is meant to draw op attacks(in which he will likely "body twist" off), trip, disarm, and flurry opponents to death. He wields only his unarmed attacks, a sai, and a kama. Weapons with the purpose only for disarming and tripping then following it up with a brutal unarmed attack.

I hope this gives you ideas.

Vanaras Qinggong Monk
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 5

Level 1
Class Ability: Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike
Feat: Toughness
Bonus Feat: Dodge
Level 2
Class Ability: Evasion
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes
Level 3
Class Ability: Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
Feat: Weapon Finesse
Bonus Feat: ---
Level 4
Class Ability: Ki Pool(magic), True Strike
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 5
Class Ability: Purity of Body
Feat: Improved Trip
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 6
Class Ability: Slow Fall 30, Ki Stand
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Mobility
Level 7
Class Ability:
Feat: Snake Style
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 8
Class Ability: Slow Fall 40, Share Memory
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 9
Class Ability: Improved Evasion
Feat: Snake Sidewind
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 10
Class Ability: Ki Pool(lawful) Slow Fall 50, Ki Leech
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Improved Critical
Level 11
Class Ability: Diamond Body
Feat: Snake Fang
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 12
Class Ability: Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 13
Class Ability: Diamond Soul
Feat: Stand Still
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 14
Class Ability: Slow Fall 70
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Medusa’s Wrath
Level 15
Class Ability: Quivering Palm
Feat: Hammer the Gap
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 16
Class Ability: Ki Pool(adamantite), Slow Fall 80
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 17
Class Ability: Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Feat: Touch of Serenity
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 18
Class Ability: Slow Fall 90
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Deflect Arrows
Level 19
Class Ability: Empty Body
Feat:
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 20
Class Ability: Perfect Self, Slow Fall Infinite
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----

Most desired Equipment:
• Amulet of Mighty Fists *****
• Monk’s Robe ****
• Belt of Incredible Dexterity ***
• Unfettered Shirt **
• Truesight Goggles **
• Boots of Speed ****
• Deliquescent Gloves **
• Halo of Menace ***
• Headband of Inspired Wisdom ***
• Juggernaut’s Pauldrons ****
• Bracers of Sworn Vengeance **


Alejandro Acosta wrote:
Morval wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

Normally, if a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature CAN'T WIELD THE WEAPON AT ALL.

normal medium human can use light one hand or 2 hand only. Can't wield anything larger. incorrect size means if I use a 2 hand weapon one handed (no feat required) -2.

with lighten weapon, can use a large weapon 2 handed for -2. otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it at all. The keyword is OVERSIZE WEAPON (like Cloud from FFVII with his ginormous Materia Blade).

I understand lighten weapon allows a medium creature to use a large two handed weapon where as without the feat he couldn't, I actually say that in my post. :)

My question is, the feat gives a medium creature the ability to wield the large 2handed weapon at a -2, no problem there. But the weapon still is an Inappropriately Sized Weapon for a medium creature. Do they also still get the -2 for this. You get -2 even if you are wielding a small lighthanded weapon since its not sized for you (not balanced right, different length screws up your attack, etc.). Lighten weapon makes no mention of helping with this penalty that I can read. It simply makes a weapon feel lighter in your hand (you know how to balance heavy weapons in such a way that a 2handed weapon can be easily used in one hand by you).

p144 Core Rulebook...

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

So lighten Weapon feat makes the large greatsword light enough to wield by a medium creature, but the sword is still a large weapon and is still hard to wield (not balanced for medium creatures, etc.)so they would take a

...

Thanks for the attempt at helping, but I think we are not communicating to each other very well. :) I said a few times I am talking about a large two handed weapon, not a medium two handed weapon. I also said I realize a large two handed weapon could not be wielded without this feat by a medium. But thats all it does, it allows you to wield it. It doesn't change the weapon into a weapon sized correctly for a medium. At least how I read it. So you would also get the extra -2 for wielding a weapon not sized appropriately for your size. Added to the penalty this feat gives you for making the weapon lighter so you can wield it, there would be a -4 penalty. Thats all I'm trying to check on.

Thanks!

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