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+1 on the following:
* Thanks, very nice work!
* I'd like to see the text a tad more readable too. If this is something you pursue, try a light-colored outer glow effect.
* Making the cards a uniform size is a must, for me. Playing card size, if possible, would be ideal. If you're sending out the .psd files, could I have a peak?
If this is a community project, and not intended for sale, then this is probably in the wrong forum.
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I feel a lot better about adherence to the creative commons and other such legal copyright laws. I look forward to what you come up with.
Best of luck to you. Thank you for sharing. I share M's sentiment, and wouldn't want the law to have to sit on anyone.
Some general feedback for whatever its worth:
>larger font
>double sided
>sided for slipping into diamond clear hard plastic baseball card sleeves (aforementioned sizes)
>Adhere to the "bleed" dimensions I mentioned earlier, for those of us who wish to print our own
>Promote the spell level larger so it is eye-catching (vsm is okay but overly important in appearance)
Cadwyr - you don't need to use any of these feedback items, please take what you can and leave the rest.
Best of luck (legally),
Pax
Edit: and yes, Lilith is right, wrong forum since this is absolutely not licensed, except for permissions to reprint spell text under the OGL. Additionally, I'm not sure PAIZO should/would host these due to creative commons.
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If this is a community project, and not intended for sale, then this is probably in the wrong forum.
While it is a "community" project, it does use the licenses, and is therefore a licensed product. I received an email from Paizo that said this was the forum to make announcements and to take advantage of it. :)
Paizo doesn't have forums differentiating between the two licenses at the moment. When they do, I'll be happy to move to a more appropriate forum, or Vic can always move it. He has nothing else to do all day anyway!
:)
Ummm Vic! Take your hand AWAY from that DELETE key! Ummm Vic... ummmm oh craaaaa...
While it is a "community" project, it does use the licenses, and is therefore a licensed product. I received an email from Paizo that said this was the forum to make announcements and to take advantage of it. :)
Paizo doesn't have forums differentiating between the two licenses at the moment. When they do, I'll be happy to move to a more appropriate forum, or Vic can always move it. He has nothing else to do all day anyway!
:)
Ummm Vic! Take your hand AWAY from that DELETE key! Ummm Vic... ummmm oh craaaaa...
But there is a Community Content forum...
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Good point about the forums. I wasn't sure which to place it in, and this one looked the closest. If this needs to be moved to another forum, then please do so.
I've also been playing with the card design, and I have a template worked out that I think will work. I've reduced the cards to 4x6", with the double-sized cards 8x6". This will make them fit one of the standard index card sizes. For those asking for smaller cards, I can easily make them but for the majority of the cards the text would be entirely unreadable. I've created a printing template for generating the .pdfs of the cards, so that portion is all ready to go. You will get 2 cards/8.5x11" page and it will make it easy to make the cards double-sided (which they will be). I've increased font sizes where I can, while still ensuring the text will fit on the cards.
I've also been playing around with the fonts and shadow effects and I think I have something to improve the readability/darkness. I'll try to post an update later today.
The image I'm trying to go for here is more Index Cards/postcards rather than normal playing cards. The later does not have enough space, and the former fills the roll I was intending with these cards.
If they move you to the community forum, I'll meet you there, Caedwyr. And, thank's Lilith.
As to Mairkurion's question up thread - - - I've given this a little thought and could envision spellcasting players selecting their spells for the day/ or having in front of them the spells they know if being the sorcerer type. Then, upon casting, handing the GM the card and thus tracking (just as we already do with PAIZO's gamemastery cards) the usage of spells. When magic is handed out, I handout Gamemastery cards, and this process could work in just the reverse-with players handing the card to the GM. Experienced GMs need not collect the cards, but given that Jason has made tiny adjustments to many/all the Pathfinder RPG spells, this would provoke a close look at the rules, at least for the 2009-2010 game year. Additionaly, it might also invite many others to enjoy the use of spell cards. What seems like complex information, can seem quite simple when presented in a small card medium.
Finally, it might be interesting for GMs who run old-school style, to actually provide the cards initially when the wizards learn new spells or discover scrolls and what-have-you. Overall, this is a very old idea... but until the OGL, and until Pathfinder RPG, it seems there hasn't been a better time to have these.
To the contrary - I dislike the idea that the game needs to be played with cards. This is a trope that wotc introduced to dnd as they merged magic the gathering into it when they bought TSR. For these reasons, I am hesitant to go there, but since I already use PAIZO cards regularly, and since I love having the latest gaming bling/comforts at my table and as a player myself at times, I think its a fine idea.
I would be very much interested in a deck of Cleric cards. If I knew how to contact you Caedwyr, maybe I could even lend a hand to help on this project... thoughts?
More! More! These are beautiful! Thank you very much!
Creative Director
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I hate a lot of this copyright bullcrap. I mean, if no one is making profit off of it, or reducing the likely hood that the profit that would otherwise be made from the intellectual material, I don't think there's a problem.
I'm currently eating a burrito for dinner. I can do that because I get paid to work at a job. My employer can pay me to work at that job because we produce a product that is ours to profit from. Copyright helps us to retain control of that product.
So if we at Paizo seem defensive about copyrighted material, try to keep in mind that we've got a pretty good reason. Copyright laws help us to not die of starvation.
(goes back to eating delicious burrito)
Keep 'em coming... now if we could just get the following...
Color Spray
Protection from Evil
Magic Weapon
Shield
Then I would be set for gaming this weekend ;) I'll have to scour
"teh interwebs" to see if I can find you any artwork :p
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I hate a lot of this copyright bullcrap. I mean, if no one is making profit off of it, or reducing the likely hood that the profit that would otherwise be made from the intellectual material, I don't think there's a problem.I'm currently eating a burrito for dinner. I can do that because I get paid to work at a job. My employer can pay me to work at that job because we produce a product that is ours to profit from. Copyright helps us to retain control of that product.
So if we at Paizo seem defensive about copyrighted material, try to keep in mind that we've got a pretty good reason. Copyright laws help us to not die of starvation.
(goes back to eating delicious burrito)
Problem with copyright law isn't that it exists, it's that Disney has screwed it all up and it now lasts forever.
People should not still be milking money out of "Happy Birthday". Copyright originally lasted 7 years, the government granted you a 7 year monopoly on your work as incentive to continue to make new work, NOT to try and come up with one good idea and milk it for 100 years.
And going all nazi on copyrights like the RIAA did with their lawsuits is NOT good for business. Anecdotal evidence: I downloaded quite a few dungeon/dragon issues after playing a little bit of Age of Worms, it was my first experience with the magazines at all. I was pretty poor at the time, however thanks to those downloads I got hooked on paizo's work. And now I've bought every pathfinder book to have come out since then (and most of the PFS scenarios to boot). Illegal downloads are more often free marketing than they are lost sales.
People will buy what they can and will download what they can't. Pirates aren't out people with 50k+ salaries, they're poor college kids, teenagers etc. Don't go around letting people go crazy downloading your stuff, but don't go all fascist either, strike the balance (which is what Paizo seems to be doing now) and all should be well.
There does need to be copyright reform though, and badly.
While I do agree that copyright periods are likely too long (especially when considering works that the original creator has stopped building on), that's really neither here nor there. Copyright laws exist, and that's not likely to change overnight (in fact, it would probably be a bad thing if it did).
Referring to artworks, the handful of artists I know would general be happy to have a couple of their works on things like this, as long as they know about it and receive appropriate credit. It really comes down to "ask nicely and we'll say yes".
The point is that you need to actually ask, and if they do say no you need to respect that.
I hate a lot of this copyright bullcrap. I mean, if no one is making profit off of it, or reducing the likely hood that the profit that would otherwise be made from the intellectual material, I don't think there's a problem.I'm currently eating a burrito for dinner. I can do that because I get paid to work at a job. My employer can pay me to work at that job because we produce a product that is ours to profit from. Copyright helps us to retain control of that product.
So if we at Paizo seem defensive about copyrighted material, try to keep in mind that we've got a pretty good reason. Copyright laws help us to not die of starvation.
(goes back to eating delicious burrito)
James, I'd like you to read the bolded text in the quote you quoted from me.
I'm not sure how that's relevant to this particular discussion.
By distributing an artwork for the purpose of decorating a product (free or not), you are impacting the commercial value of the work.
The pirate discussion is a long and complicated one. It should be picked up in another thread, so this can be dedicated to more beautiful, beautiful spell cards.
Though I wasn't talking about pirating (as pirating would imply stealing something that would otherwise generate profit, and I'm talking about art that has been put out for free), I still want to say....
Hear hear! Get back to the spell cards!
I'm not sure how that's relevant to this particular discussion.
By distributing an artwork for the purpose of decorating a product (free or not), you are impacting the commercial value of the work.
Would you decide not to monetarily support an artist just because you saw their work on a spell card?
I mean really, would the use of a piece of art in the background of a spell card make it less likely that that piece of art would be bought, or used again?
Or are you saying that because the art gets used for free in a free set of spell cards, it inherently affects the value of the sale of that art for other uses? ("Oh, that guy got to use it for free, why can't I?" kind of thing?)
I mean really, would the use of a piece of art in the background of a spell card make it less likely that that piece of art would be bought, or used again?
It likely would, yes.
Also keep in mind that the copyright holder does have a massive say in what you can do with their work - the driving force behind copyright is to encourage artists to share their work with the general public, rather than locking it away or keeping it privately, while still retaining a similar amount of control over what's done with it.
For uses which don't have an impact on the commercial value, there's Fair Use. Which weighs not only whether the current example impacts the works commercial value, but also whether or not there would a commercial impact if such use were widespread.
The pirate discussion is a long and complicated one. It should be picked up in another thread, so this can be dedicated to more beautiful, beautiful spell cards.I fully agree.
Me too.
Therefore, OT at Burrito-eaters and oxen everywhere.
I hope that burrito is the best damn burrito that you ever had, James. I want Paizo staff rolling in delicious food items of their choice. "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn."
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Creative Director
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I hate a lot of this copyright bullcrap. I mean, if no one is making profit off of it, or reducing the likely hood that the profit that would otherwise be made from the intellectual material, I don't think there's a problem.James, I'd like you to read the bolded text in the quote you quoted from me.
It doesn't matter if the copyright infringer is making a profit or not. Giving away another company's or another person's copyrighted material for free won't make a profit for the copyright infringer, but it can quite easily rob a source of income from the copyright holder, and can also promote the idea that since one person did it, everyone can do it. A copyright holder HAS to be hard-core about defending his or her material, because once you lose control of it it's impossible to get it back. In fact, I think THIS is a bigger fear and a better reason to defend copyright than the desire to prevent others from profiting off of your hard work. Personally, I wouldn't mind if something I created helped put food on someone else's table, but I absolutely WOULD mind if someone stole my creation and thus removed my ability to make a profit off of my own creation.
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Creative Director
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I'm not sure how that's relevant to this particular discussion.
By distributing an artwork for the purpose of decorating a product (free or not), you are impacting the commercial value of the work.
Would you decide not to monetarily support an artist just because you saw their work on a spell card?
I mean really, would the use of a piece of art in the background of a spell card make it less likely that that piece of art would be bought, or used again?
Or are you saying that because the art gets used for free in a free set of spell cards, it inherently affects the value of the sale of that art for other uses? ("Oh, that guy got to use it for free, why can't I?" kind of thing?)
It might, especially if a copyright holder wanted to make spell cards using that same art. But more to the point, it creates the public assumption that if one person used the art like this, anyone else can use it because no one complained about the use. The fear isn't that one set of spell cards steals profit, but that it sets a precedent and suddenly you have stolen art showing up on book covers, on billboards, in advertisements, or on county-fair rollercoster cars (which happened to Paizo). It's a bigger issue than one person using art from a copyrighted source.
Getting back to the original concern... it DOES sound like the OP has secured some rights, but I did see at least one image in the cards that was an image Paizo purchased to illustrate an article in Dragon (the article about the seven virtues as cleric domains). In that case, that's very probably an infraction of copyright, since that art was purchased by Paizo under our license with Wizards of the Coast, and all of that art was purchased all-rights so it actually and technically belongs to Wizards of the Coast, not Paizo, and not the original artist. And Wizards of the Coast is even more careful about letting their art get used for non-official sources, so there's certainly a concern there.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Getting back to the original concern... it DOES sound like the OP has secured some rights, but I did see at least one image in the cards that was an image Paizo purchased to illustrate an article in Dragon (the article about the seven virtues as cleric domains). In that case, that's very probably an infraction of copyright, since that art was purchased by Paizo under our license with Wizards of the Coast, and all of that art was purchased all-rights so it actually and technically belongs to Wizards of the Coast, not Paizo, and not the original artist. And Wizards of the Coast is even more careful about letting their art get used for non-official sources, so there's certainly a concern there.
I believe that image appeared on the Paizo blog, which, under the current wording of the Community Use Policy, is available for reproduction. I can only think of a single post on the blog, though, that contains art from before Pathfinder started.
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Creative Director
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Getting back to the original concern... it DOES sound like the OP has secured some rights, but I did see at least one image in the cards that was an image Paizo purchased to illustrate an article in Dragon (the article about the seven virtues as cleric domains). In that case, that's very probably an infraction of copyright, since that art was purchased by Paizo under our license with Wizards of the Coast, and all of that art was purchased all-rights so it actually and technically belongs to Wizards of the Coast, not Paizo, and not the original artist. And Wizards of the Coast is even more careful about letting their art get used for non-official sources, so there's certainly a concern there.I believe that image appeared on the Paizo blog, which, under the current wording of the Community Use Policy, is available for reproduction. I can only think of a single post on the blog, though, that contains art from before Pathfinder started.
Interesting... probably as part of a "let's show off some of this artist's work" but before we actually had a nice collection of his work to show off that wasn't stuff he did for Dragon or Dungeon. We should probably replace that artwork...
First and foremost, thanks for the effort and for listening to feedback.
Size...i am not real picky about what size the cards are, but they need to be all the same size. A size that allows me to sleeve them or at least store them in a page designed to hold pictures would be fine. If it comes down to a choice between smaller font or larger card, then larger card is preferable.
Double sided. I would prefer not, but its not a deal killer. Double sided limit the sleeving options since the back must be visible.
Images...Given the possibility of copyright issues even with the best of efforts and intentions, I would perfer image free cards. The side effect is that my aging eyes will also find it much easier to read without an image in the background. Alternately, provide an image free set for those of us who need or prefer solid (very light or white) backgrounds.
Font. For the spell text, I would prefer a font like Ariel which is a very plain and esaily read font. Lookt at the fonts for the links and titles on this website. It might be Ariel (perhpas Helvetica?) but its very close.
Level and other key stats. Make the most frequently used information larger and bold. The cards do this pretty well, but the advice to captilize the 3 letter class abbreviation is a good idea.
thanks once again for all your work
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Good gods, everybody becomes TSR at somepoint, don't they. I am one of the biggest advocats for doing things right and legally, and I am sure none of us want any art stolen nor any copyright violated.
That said, the tone in this thread should stop, because it makes makes my cereal soggy when publishers and editors get nasty (not that anyone has yet). They have every right to protect their work, and as creative commons/community use folks I think as creators of works its our duty to first find out what is public domain/royalty free/or needs to be procured before putting it out there. I think its pretty irresponsible to take on the attitude, "well, if something is copyright, just let me know and I'll remove it." That demonstrates a great deal of lassez-faire attitude toward artists and their IP.
That said, I'm about as sick as the next guy about all this hogging of IP by a billion folks, as its practically impossible any more to feel free enough to create something without spending several lifetimes researching what can and cannot be done, versus what has and has not been done and so forth. I would really hope this thread returns to being about free spell cards, and I could care less if they're black and white with an attached OGL and Pathfinder RPG compatibility license. Furthermore, with the sheer amount of stock art that companies like WOTC have hoarded over the years in the name of IP is just disgusting. Rather than let communities use their visual imagination, we're relegated to an OGL that makes rules free - - even though game rules can't be copyright protected anyhow, but leaves the associated artwork in the dust heap, hiding it from new generations as the wotc did with their .pdfs recently. So, its just a dirty shame that this hobby about creativity and imagination has become one of rules laywers and copyright lawyers.
*takes a breath*
I realize that was a rant. But I see both sides to this. Bottom line, let's follow the letter of the law - as I am sure is Caedwyr's intention. Not that it would be a whole lot of trouble for James to "kick in" some art for Caedwyr to use.... seriously, I see the other posts point of view as well, .... seriously, none of us are going to stop our PAIZO subscriptions, nor are we going to put LEM on a rollercoaster car door.
Let's just get back to talking about spell cards.
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Creative Director
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That said, the tone in this thread should stop, because it makes makes my cereal soggy when publishers and editors get nasty (not that anyone has yet).
I don't like having to put on the "nasty hat" to protect copyrights and try to prevent pirating, but if I don't I'm not doing my job. Sorry if that comes off as antagonistic, but it's the way it is. If a company like WotC wants to "hoard" their art (art that they paid for and own), that's their own prerogative. I like to think that we at Paizo are a bit more open with our art (the Community Use package is a good example, and we love it when our artists use art they've created for Pathifnder on their website or to make posters or art books or whatever they want to do with the art even if we DO retain the copyright to the art we buy from them), but that doesn't mean that I have the luxury of ignoring or pretending not to notice when something that might be a copyright violation comes up.
But begrudging WotC for keeping their art to themselves isn't really fair. Personally, I think that it's more noble and more productive to be inspired by an artist's work and then either create or commission a work that is inspired by that art than it is to steal the original artwork. After all, this industry is an industry, not a charity.
OT @ Pax
I'm not sure I see the same tone, Pax ol' buddy. I mean, sure, I understand the push for more art placed on the blog for community use (I'd put myself somewhere in the top three whiners in this category), but as a protector of an IP, you've got to assert the boundaries to keep lines from going grey, especially if you perceive someone questioning those lines. And I've got a great deal of sympathy for criticism of the extension of copyright in this country, and for keeping a realm for fair use, but it seems to me like JJ is trying to be helpful in this case, not that he's trying to give the OP a hard time. Or am I misreading you?
ninja'd by the EiC
EDIT: Hmm, I think you edited your post after I last read it, or I misread it. Disregard as needed.
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I just want to make it clear I don't think Paizo is all hardcore about their IP, just wanted to make a message saying I hope they don't become so. After all if it wasn't for giving up a bit of copyright by Wizards, there'd be no PFRPG today (although 'technically' you can't copyright game mechanics anyway).
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Creative Director
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I just want to make it clear I don't think Paizo is all hardcore about their IP, just wanted to make a message saying I hope they don't become so. After all if it wasn't for giving up a bit of copyright by Wizards, there'd be no PFRPG today (although 'technically' you can't copyright game mechanics anyway).
I hope we don't have to become hardcore about it either. Which is why I'm here in this thread trying to make sure that anyone who wants to do something like these spell cards (which ARE a pretty cool idea) does it right and doesn't (inadvertently or otherwise) force the issue.
EDIT: On certain matters, we HAVE to be hardcore about protecting our IP. I should say, though, that in protecting it I hope we at Paizo can avoid doing so in a way that makes us come off as ogres.
Anyway, I appreciate the attempts to enlighten me as to how to use these, especially yours Pax, and all the work that went into them, and so will have to give these a try.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I believe that image appeared on the Paizo blog, which, under the current wording of the Community Use Policy, is available for reproduction. I can only think of a single post on the blog, though, that contains art from before Pathfinder started.Interesting... probably as part of a "let's show off some of this artist's work" but before we actually had a nice collection of his work to show off that wasn't stuff he did for Dragon or Dungeon. We should probably replace that artwork...
That's exactly what it was: here. This is, of course, assuming the image you mentioned is the one prominently displayed here. I haven't looked through all the spell cards to find the seven virtues image you're referring to. In any case, I believe two of the three images on display in this entry are from Dungeon/Dragon days and not from Pathfinder.
Dang. The project has really grown...and...dang.
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Creative Director
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That's exactly what it was: here. This is, of course, assuming the image you mentioned is the one prominently displayed here. I haven't looked through all the spell cards to find the seven virtues image you're referring to. In any case, I believe two of the three images on display in this entry are from Dungeon/Dragon days and not from Pathfinder.I believe that image appeared on the Paizo blog, which, under the current wording of the Community Use Policy, is available for reproduction. I can only think of a single post on the blog, though, that contains art from before Pathfinder started.Interesting... probably as part of a "let's show off some of this artist's work" but before we actually had a nice collection of his work to show off that wasn't stuff he did for Dragon or Dungeon. We should probably replace that artwork...
That indeed is the image. I'll speak with folks here once everyone else is in to work (this being a weekend most of Paizo has the day off), and we'll probably have to change that particular blog post. The fish-man illustration will have to go as well.
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WHOA GUYS!
This thread is about the Free Spell Cards, being distrusted as per the licenses provided by Paizo. If there is a problem with a particular piece of art, let us know by email or here, though no guarantees we will see it here.
Take the copyright debate somewhere else. That stuff just kills this kind of thread and devalues the effort we are putting into these FREE products, that as far as we know comply with the licenses.
Trust me, if a piece of work is used incorrectly it is an accident or misunderstanding. We're taking work that is either from the blog (which is available to use according to the CUL), original artwork (the original artwork for my 4x6 condition cards is my own art, and by golly no one can tell me I can't use my own original art- and if you see it anywhere else let me know because it is stolen), or from sites that claim they own the copyright and are providing them for public use (usually under some condition which we to adhere to).
This thread has devolved into such tones and content that I am inclined to take my projects and say FORGET IT. This stuff is made for free for the enjoyment of the community. We don't HAVE to do that. We are very serious about doing it all legally, as I DO recognize the value of copyright laws.
And no, there is no lazy following of the rules here. We are actively trying to follow the rules. The only way we are using images incorrectly is if they were posted to the blog by Paizo and should not have, as appears to be the case, and not our fault, or other sites are lying about their rights to art and we have no way to clarify that, but trust them. Regardless, mistakes just might happen. If you are the copyright owner, contact us.
Seriously, take this stuff elsewhere.
If there is a specific issue let us know.
OT @ Charles Evans
My favorite painting, a copy of which hangs over the fire place in my home. It's kind of a tough image to pigeon hole.
Great use of Rembrandt.