Adventure paths.... why do they only go from lvl 1-15?


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as the titel reads, why not make an adventurepath that ends around lvl 20... its is a shame that the best of paizo's adventures end at lvl 15. i remember when they made dungeon magazin, both the schackeled city and the kyous adp, was from lvl 1-20(21).

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Niels wrote:

as the titel reads, why not make an adventurepath that ends around lvl 20... its is a shame that the best of paizo's adventures end at lvl 15. i remember when they made dungeon magazin, both the schackeled city and the kyous adp, was from lvl 1-20(21).

I remember reading one of the Paizo folks (Mona?) stating higher tier mods don't sell well or something.


My group quit Age of Worms after "Wormcrawl Fissure," and never got past "Into the Maw" for Savage Tide. They hated the fast-track advancement, and, worse, hated the fact that most APs seem to just degenerate into endless slug-fests at higher levels.


I think that's just stand alones. The APs only go to 15 because they can't squeeze an extra 5 levels into 6 a six month arc and they don't want to break the two APs per year model.

There have been a few threads about this with suggestions like a 5-20 Ap or one scaled on the 'fast' xp track. ALso the possibility of stand alone 'follow-up type adventures has been mentioned. (By posters. I don't think anyone from Paizo has endorsed any of those ideas.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

One day I really would like to do some sort of big adventure sequel something that takes adventurers from 15th to 20th level, but right now that's not something we're really working on.

As for why Pathfinder APs only go up to around 15th level... lots of reasons. I'll list five bigger ones below.

1) Because in 6 months, that's basically what we have room to cover while still providing lots of support material in Pathfinder for the AP.

2) Because sales for APs traditionally decreases at the high level end of things.

3) Because higher level adventures are a lot harder to write, and thus harder to develop and edit.

4) Because the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer mid level adventures.

5) Because when we go above 15th level, monster options become increasingly sparse, especially since for many encounters you want things that are above the party level by 2 or 3 CRs. This essentially means dragons and evil outsiders and creatures with complex class levels or monsters from beyond the core Bestiary from other Bestiaries or products which means more full-reprinted stat blocks which means longer adventures.

That said, I'm very strongly considering an attempt to go higher than 15th for an upcoming AP, if I can figure out how to pull it off in 6 volumes...

Scarab Sages

Kirth Gersen wrote:
My group quit Age of Worms after "Wormcrawl Fissure," and never got past "Into the Maw" for Savage Tide. They hated the fast-track advancement, and, worse, hated the fact that most APs seem to just degenerate into endless slug-fests at higher levels.

You're just not playing the game right. ;)

I agree with James. I would love a high-level, even Epic-level, AP. But not at the expense of a slow pace. I don't want characters going from 1st to 20th level in a matter of days. I don't know if that is possible to do well in a 6-volume AP.


We did finish Shackled City, but the last adventure had a ton of DM (me) hand waving to get to the tower, and the final battle since everyone, me included, wqw tired of the slug fests. That is why we are playing Rise of the Rune Lords instead of Age of Worms or Savage Tide, and will move on to the other APs, because they don't force the last 4 or 5 levels.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Kirth Gersen wrote:
My group quit Age of Worms after "Wormcrawl Fissure," and never got past "Into the Maw" for Savage Tide. They hated the fast-track advancement, and, worse, hated the fact that most APs seem to just degenerate into endless slug-fests at higher levels.


I'd actually be very interested in campaigns from Pathfinder that went all the way to 20th level. I'd probably buy all of the adventure paths pathfinder has put out if they went to 20th level.

If anyone has played through the Drow Wars released by Mongoose, they found a great way to make a campaign that went from 1-30th level. Even at the higher levels, they kept things interesting with traps and various diplomatic situations. As for the monster and CR issues, they ended up making their own enemies and traps and releasing them in separate books.


This is one of those things that drove me crazy when I was reading the previews and later, the PFRPG - all these excellent new abilities the classes are promised after 16th level. If Paizo won't be creating adventures at that level, what is the point? What a waste of precious design time! (Don't even get me started on the whole 'balanced capstone ability' thing.)

Sorry, that was way too grumpy. =) But I have to tell you, when hardened game designers balk at doing high-level adventures in the PFRPG, there isn't much incentive for the amateurs to try. I hope Mr. Jacobs and the others find a cost-effective way to do more high -level adventures (perhaps the Pathfinder Society could help?) I really believe the PFRPG is a big step toward a game playable at all 20 levels, but first it needs a long, hard 20-step shakedown cruise.


Maybe if you could do a 'Sequel AP' to one of the regular 1-15 APs? That might be interesting.


Oncehawk wrote:
This is one of those things that drove me crazy when I was reading the previews and later, the PFRPG - all these excellent new abilities the classes are promised after 16th level. If Paizo won't be creating adventures at that level, what is the point? What a waste of precious design time! (Don't even get me started on the whole 'balanced capstone ability' thing.)

Because the core game isn't just designed for Pathfinder adventure paths, it's designed to be a continuation of D&D 3.5 which has levels 1-20 in core.

Oncehawk wrote:
Sorry, that was way too grumpy. =) But I have to tell you, when hardened game designers balk at doing high-level adventures in the PFRPG, there isn't much incentive for the amateurs to try. I hope Mr. Jacobs and the others find a cost-effective way to do more high -level adventures (perhaps the Pathfinder Society could help?) I really believe the PFRPG is a big step toward a game playable at all 20 levels, but first it needs a long, hard 20-step shakedown cruise.

I'm not sure what you expect, if high level stuff doesn't sell well Paizo is supposed to produce it as some sort of public service?

On perhaps a more helpful note, Rite Publishing is doing a 16th-20th level super adventure written by Clinton Boomer specifically for PfRPG. You might look there and as a bonus you get to help shape the adventure.

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Wolfthulhu wrote:
Maybe if you could do a 'Sequel AP' to one of the regular 1-15 APs? That might be interesting.

Would love that. But I can see, and understand, that wouldn't be as cost effective for Paizo.

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Dennis da Ogre wrote:


On perhaps a more helpful note, Rite Publishing is doing a 16th-20th level super adventure written by Clinton Boomer specifically for PfRPG. You might look there and as a bonus you get to help shape the adventure.

It is? I knew about the project but didn't know its levels. I'll have to check it out....

Oh, wait. It's a patronage project. Won't be able to purchase it. Well, maybe next project ^_^.


joela wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:


On perhaps a more helpful note, Rite Publishing is doing a 16th-20th level super adventure written by Clinton Boomer specifically for PfRPG. You might look there and as a bonus you get to help shape the adventure.

It is? I knew about the project but didn't know its levels. I'll have to check it out....

Oh, wait. It's a patronage project. Won't be able to purchase it. Well, maybe next project ^_^.

They are still accepting Patrons. The lowest level patronage is Bronze for $30. A bit more expensive than an equivalent premade module but you do get to participate in the development and as has been pointed out there aren't a lot of high level modules out there.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:


On perhaps a more helpful note, Rite Publishing is doing a 16th-20th level super adventure written by Clinton Boomer specifically for PfRPG. You might look there and as a bonus you get to help shape the adventure.

Dennis, I read through all 5 interviews w/ Boomer, as well as the splash page for the project. Where did you see the "16th-20th level" notes??

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
BenS wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:


On perhaps a more helpful note, Rite Publishing is doing a 16th-20th level super adventure written by Clinton Boomer specifically for PfRPG. You might look there and as a bonus you get to help shape the adventure.

Dennis, I read through all 5 interviews w/ Boomer, as well as the splash page for the project. Where did you see the "16th-20th level" notes??

It's what the patrons decided upon on the forums. We had an opportunity to vote for the level range. 16-20 won fairly easily.


The last few adventures can be composed of traps. The encounters can also be social based.

If a campaign is going break the mold by going to 20 then it should be allowed to break the 6 month rule, and what is the fast track issue? What I mean is I have never heard of it before so I really have no clue as to what it is.

The high level modules don't sell well because they normally start above above 15 and it is not fun to sit down and build a high level character, since it takes up a lot of time, but when you start at lower levels and work you way up to it you are doing a little at a time so it is not that much of an issue.


Kvantum wrote:
BenS wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:


On perhaps a more helpful note, Rite Publishing is doing a 16th-20th level super adventure written by Clinton Boomer specifically for PfRPG. You might look there and as a bonus you get to help shape the adventure.

Dennis, I read through all 5 interviews w/ Boomer, as well as the splash page for the project. Where did you see the "16th-20th level" notes??
It's what the patrons decided upon on the forums. We had an opportunity to vote for the level range. 16-20 won fairly easily.

Aaaand SOLD! Thanks the confirmation, Kvantum.

On topic, James, you've had to say this stuff over and over. Why not just make it a sticky and be done w/ it (for the time being)?

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Nothing against the OP but it seems like this conversation comes up every couple of months in a new thread it seems. :)


Dark_Mistress wrote:
Nothing against the OP but it seems like this conversation comes up every couple of months in a new thread it seems. :)

You're correct, which is why I suggested the sticky...

Contributor

Sinister Adventure's Ebon Shroud (scroll down a touch) comes out in February and is for high level adventurers (reaching up into the Epic by its conclusion) - also its by Pett and me - the first collaboration ever between our sick minds.

Vampires, A frozen wasteland of eternal night and worse.

Scarab Sages

What if there was a single sequel to the Adventure Path that brought the same characters to the a new related climax. a level 19-20 adventure.

Return to Xin Shalast for example.

The party could run through some other adventures by the DM, begin setting up their empires as every 17th level character should ;)

Then the new trouble begins...


Nicolas Logue wrote:

Sinister Adventure's Ebon Shroud (scroll down a touch) comes out in February and is for high level adventurers (reaching up into the Epic by its conclusion) - also its by Pett and me - the first collaboration ever between our sick minds.

Vampires, A frozen wasteland of eternal night and worse.

bearing in mind the delay with RC what is the current stage of Ebon Shroud- when is it looking like being ready to ship?

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Nicolas Logue wrote:

Sinister Adventure's Ebon Shroud (scroll down a touch) comes out in February and is for high level adventurers (reaching up into the Epic by its conclusion) - also its by Pett and me - the first collaboration ever between our sick minds.

Vampires, A frozen wasteland of eternal night and worse.

OMG!

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Werecorpse wrote:
Nicolas Logue wrote:

Sinister Adventure's Ebon Shroud (scroll down a touch) comes out in February and is for high level adventurers (reaching up into the Epic by its conclusion) - also its by Pett and me - the first collaboration ever between our sick minds.

Vampires, A frozen wasteland of eternal night and worse.

bearing in mind the delay with RC what is the current stage of Ebon Shroud- when is it looking like being ready to ship?

I'd guesstimate first quarter next year.

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Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

What if there was a single sequel to the Adventure Path that brought the same characters to the a new related climax. a level 19-20 adventure.

Return to Xin Shalast for example.

The party could run through some other adventures by the DM, begin setting up their empires as every 17th level character should ;)

Then the new trouble begins...

Runelords Wrath! (Note the plural there!)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Myself and my gaming group love high level content. Absolutely love it. I cannot state clearly enough that the biggest disappointment we have with Paizo as a company right now is its apparent lack of commitment to changing the industry's mindset concerning the viability of high level content.

Read that last sentence carefully. I'm done with wringing my hands over no new high level content because, really, the absence is just a symptom of the bigger problem: 3.5 (and PF by extension) is complicated to play (and hence design content for) from levels 16 - 20. What I want is for Paizo to generate, for lack of a better term, a silver bullet that fixes the core issue.

In other words, please don't bother making new high level content until you've produced alternate/optional rules that streamline high level play. James and Eric have stated over and over again that high level content doesn't sell as well and is harder to design/edit/test. No argument there. BUT.....please don't stop thinking of solutions to the problem! Don't accept this as an immutable fact of gaming life!

Why can't we stop beating our heads against the wall of high level adventure design and start changing the core rules that are hampering us. Are we worried about backwards compatibility with high level 3.5 content? Huh? Maybe a half dozen high level adventures? I'm pretty sure that if a new set of rules for high level play made it nearly impossible to use older high level 3.5 content BUT now made it incredibly fun to design/edit/test and play in Pathfinder.......no one will come at you screaming that their Rappan Athuk Reloaded campaign is shot to hell.

In the end, all I can say is, I'm not here asking for new high level content (that comes later). High level content, done by 3.5 or Pathfinder rules as they exist today, is an uphill battle. I get it. I really do.

I'm here asking, begging, that someone(s) step up to the plate, do the hard thing, make the hard decisions, and fix what has been wrong since 2000 when DnD 3.0 came out; make it fun to design/edit/test and PLAY high level content. Once that's been achieved, then we can start talking about actually producing some high level content.


Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

Myself and my gaming group love high level content. Absolutely love it. I cannot state clearly enough that the biggest disappointment we have with Paizo as a company right now is its apparent lack of commitment to changing the industry's mindset concerning the viability of high level content.

Read that last sentence carefully. I'm done with wringing my hands over no new high level content because, really, the absence is just a symptom of the bigger problem: 3.5 (and PF by extension) is complicated to play (and hence design content for) from levels 16 - 20. What I want is for Paizo to generate, for lack of a better term, a silver bullet that fixes the core issue.

In other words, please don't bother making new high level content until you've produced alternate/optional rules that streamline high level play. James and Eric have stated over and over again that high level content doesn't sell as well and is harder to design/edit/test. No argument there. BUT.....please don't stop thinking of solutions to the problem! Don't accept this as an immutable fact of gaming life!

Why can't we stop beating our heads against the wall of high level adventure design and start changing the core rules that are hampering us. Are we worried about backwards compatibility with high level 3.5 content? Huh? Maybe a half dozen high level adventures? I'm pretty sure that if a new set of rules for high level play made it nearly impossible to use older high level 3.5 content BUT now made it incredibly fun to design/edit/test and play in Pathfinder.......no one will come at you screaming that their Rappan Athuk Reloaded campaign is shot to hell.

In the end, all I can say is, I'm not here asking for new high level content (that comes later). High level content, done by 3.5 or Pathfinder rules as they exist today, is an uphill battle. I get it. I really do.

I'm here asking, begging, that someone(s) step up to the plate, do the hard thing, make the hard decisions, and fix what has been wrong since 2000 when DnD 3.0...

What is complicated for one is simple for another. I for example, have not trouble with making high level characters. I just find it time consuming. If you tell them what you find difficult they may be able to help.

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Werecorpse wrote:
Nicolas Logue wrote:

Sinister Adventure's Ebon Shroud (scroll down a touch) comes out in February and is for high level adventurers (reaching up into the Epic by its conclusion) - also its by Pett and me - the first collaboration ever between our sick minds.

Vampires, A frozen wasteland of eternal night and worse.

bearing in mind the delay with RC what is the current stage of Ebon Shroud- when is it looking like being ready to ship?

Shroud is hardwired for a February release. It might get delayed as Rich and I are just really diving into the manuscript next week (we've only been outlining and I've been picking at it until then) - but I can't see the delay being ANY longer than a month if there even is one.

Sinister is on point now. I've learned much since I opened her sweet legs and plunged in. It was a very VERY rocky year, but now I'm in it to win it!

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Nicolas Logue wrote:

I've learned much since I opened her sweet legs and plunged in. It was a very VERY rocky year, but now I'm in it to win it!

TMI, dude!

Scarab Sages

One of the problems people have with high level content, is that fights take too long...up the damage...remove damage level caps, give casters feats that increase die steps, etc. Go brutal, To me, lots of attacks can slow things down.

Buffs/debuffs tend to slow things down if you're not ready with modifiers real quick....


Personally I enjoy AP's finishing up around level 15 and would even be happy with them finishing a little lower than that. I just find lower level play much more interesting, both due to the different challenges and the range of monsters available. In the higher levels focus of play tends to shift a little, which can make it harder for higher level AP entries to keep the same feel as the earlier ones.

One of the fun parts of reaching higher levels is starting to control your own destiny a little more as the characters become an important part of the campaign world. For that reason I prefer homebrew adventures at higher level in a campaign anyway. I suspect my players at that point would be more interested in taking the chance to pursue their own agendas, so it would get increasingly more difficult to keep them engaged in an AP plot.

I'm not saying I wouldn't consider buying a high level AP at some point. But it would be much more of a hard sell than what's currently being produced.

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Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

What if there was a single sequel to the Adventure Path that brought the same characters to the a new related climax. a level 19-20 adventure.

Return to Xin Shalast for example.

The party could run through some other adventures by the DM, begin setting up their empires as every 17th level character should ;)

Then the new trouble begins...

Probably with the heroes attempting to prevent the escape of the world-shattering entity that leaves under the mountain.


You know, what Dr. Johnny Fever says makes sense.

The last iteration of Epic Level rules that we have for d20 OGL is from 3.0. Perhaps what Jason, James and company need to do is set about crafting a new and improved high/epic level system.

As a starting point, I would like to suggest that instead of doing the "conventional" thing and starting such a work at 21st level, that they instead start it at 15th or 16th level!

That's right, I'm suggesting that you overlap it with the existing rules. No one wants to see (or work on) a Pathfinder 2nd Edition for about 6-10 years, and the need for "backwards compatibility" in the core Pathfinder rules was too great to run with some of the more aggressive/progressive ideas that got generated during the various playtest rounds.

However, an expanded high-level rulebook could address many of these issues relatively safely. Indeed, the fact that most APs end around level 15-16 would make a Level 16+ rulebook an ideal point for jumping-off into some truly high-level content!

From a marketing standpoint, I think it would be much more profitable to have groups finish an AP and then immediately see another avenue they could pursue immediately. Right now though, there's a 4-5 level gap to reach Epic level content which would tend to dramatically reduce it's appeal: "OK great, I just finished running this adventure path, and there's this cool high-level stuff about 5 levels away, but not only are there no adventure to bridge that gap, but the rules and gameplay are a BEAR to contend with!"

What do you think?

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Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I had the...er, pleasure, of running The Quicksilver Hourglass for my group-high level play isn't just broken and frustrating, there are alot of dice to roll!

Plus, NONE of the monsters were any match at ALL for my players. True, I was holding off the some save-or-dies, but that shouldn't be something that makes or breaks a monster.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I found that very disappointing too. Stand by for anecdote:

See, I'm one of those DMs that generally has always designed my own adventures. I don't think I've ever actually bought a module or AP in my life. The few I own are gifts, and one of those was a Pathfinder AP book, and I remember thinking, "Wow, this is really well done, maybe I should get one of these at some point"--even though it's usually not my thing.

I've been running a (3.x homebrew, but soon converting to Pathfinder) campaign that's getting into high levels, and I very much want to continue, but I am indeed hitting those hurdles many GMs hit when they try to design an adventure for high levels ("what can the PCs not tear through like wet tissue paper but won't instead tear them apart either?" and "what kind of new and interesting challenges can I throw at them that AREN'T combat?"). And I thought -- "Hey, maybe now's the time to buy a Pathfinder AP! Surely even if I don't use every thing in it right away, it'll give me some great design ideas and show me how it's done!"

But then I found there weren't any for PCs of the level I'm running for (16-17). :(

So I continue to not be a Pathfinder AP purchaser. (Sure, I might buy some existing low level ones eventually, but not till this campaign's over.) My loss, but also Paizo's.

Consider this a big request for a high level adventure---and maybe also, for the GameMastery Guide, for tips for running high level games?

Sovereign Court

I suppose Blood Of Dragonscar is the highest level Paizo treat currently available.

I am looking forward to Ebon Shroud. It is written by regular Paizo writers Nick Logue and Richard Pett and goes from 14th to 20th.

I'm also a big fan of City Of Brass.

It's worth noting that City Of Brass is more a high level setting with a lot of potential sites for adventure and, similarly, Ebon Shroud will (apparently) be an environment rich with potential for adventure rather than a path.


I'd love to see high-level play get totally redefined. The most obvious solution would be to look at the high level (11+) shift in game paradigm in 1e, when the characters were doing more stronghold building and politics, and a lot less fighting with hordes of monsters. The problem is, in 3e an army is pointless; a simple planar binding at mid-level can wipe out almost any human army, no matter how vast. Individual power in 3e eclipses manpower, so that kingdoms and the like, by the RAW, are largely irrelevant.

So, if the 1e model won't work for Pathfinder, then are there other ideas? One thing I feel very strongly about is that at high level, fights should be less common, rather than more so as is currently the case.

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James Jacobs wrote:

One day I really would like to do some sort of big adventure sequel something that takes adventurers from 15th to 20th level, but right now that's not something we're really working on.

As for why Pathfinder APs only go up to around 15th level... lots of reasons. I'll list five bigger ones below.

1) Because in 6 months, that's basically what we have room to cover while still providing lots of support material in Pathfinder for the AP.

2) Because sales for APs traditionally decreases at the high level end of things.

3) Because higher level adventures are a lot harder to write, and thus harder to develop and edit.

4) Because the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer mid level adventures.

5) Because when we go above 15th level, monster options become increasingly sparse, especially since for many encounters you want things that are above the party level by 2 or 3 CRs. This essentially means dragons and evil outsiders and creatures with complex class levels or monsters from beyond the core Bestiary from other Bestiaries or products which means more full-reprinted stat blocks which means longer adventures.

That said, I'm very strongly considering an attempt to go higher than 15th for an upcoming AP, if I can figure out how to pull it off in 6 volumes...

Why not start the adventure at like 5th level?

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James Jacobs wrote:

One day I really would like to do some sort of big adventure sequel something that takes adventurers from 15th to 20th level, but right now that's not something we're really working on.

As for why Pathfinder APs only go up to around 15th level... lots of reasons. I'll list five bigger ones below.

1) Because in 6 months, that's basically what we have room to cover while still providing lots of support material in Pathfinder for the AP.

4) Because the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer mid level adventures.

That said, I'm very strongly considering an attempt to go higher than 15th for an upcoming AP, if I can figure out how to pull it off in 6 volumes...

Hi, James and Hello Folks,

All 5 mentioned reasons make sense. But I do have to disagree with point 1 and 4.

Here are my thoughts:

1) Covering the level-range into 6 month:

Why not just have an AP that starts with Level 4 or 5? Incorporating higher Level PC's into an AP is easily done (At least GameMasters have less problems with that, then adding another self made Adventure in order to bring the group up to Level 20 or 21).

Taking in account your statement that Adventures for Levels above 15 are harder to design, well, at least myself would be willing to compensate that effort with a higher price.

As in regards to

4)"overwhelming majority of gamers prefer mid level adventures"

I cant judge on that since I don't have any statistics on other gamers preferences, but at least my players are ALLWAYS complaining that the AP does not bring them to a Level where they can send their characters into retirement (20+).

I personally would gladly welcome an AP which ends at Level 20, at least once in a while.

An alternative would be a single module that starts at 15 and ends at 20, which could be incorporated in to an AP, although James is probably right here; its most likely that that one would not sell very well.

On the other hand, an AP that starts ant 4th level and ends at 20th... can't imagine that such a one would sell less that a regular AP 8 At least once in a while, say every 3rd or 4th AP

Any other thoughts or opinions?

Jörg

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Thats it James I have your knew office address I'm sending you some stuff I have for high level play maybe a villain or 2 that might inspire you. You can have them for free.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I think starting an AP at something like 5th makes sense. Heck, I don't know what statistical preferences there are, but many of my players and fellow gaming buddies hate starting at first level--they always want to start at least around 4th level or so, so they can have an established feat tree or two, etc. (and I'm the same myself, as a player).

The AP in question could always come with suggestions for modules to play first for starting level characters, in case the GM wants to use the AP in question, but does want to start the party at a lower level. Level up through the suggested module, then start the path at level 5 or so, and end at 20 quite nicely. (And then you're selling two products rather than one.)

Scarab Sages

Its not that hard to adjust the AP's for higher level gameplay.

I am about to DM Legacy of Fire, and I know my players will be 9th-10th level at the end of Howl of the Carrion King.

I do this because my group wants to be able to cast 9th level spells by the end.

So I promised them they would get to 17th level by the begining of The Final Wish. If they do something, like multiclass, they lose this option, but they go in to the AP with that knowledge.

This means they will be 18th level by the confrontation with the big bad guy at the end.

It means more work for me as a DM, but I accept that.

Plus, the "year off" at the end of HotCK is more of a major thing at 9th/10th than at 5th.

I dont need Paizo to write 16th level stuff for me, they did a fantastic job with the AP's as is. Lets just take that info and use it for our high level gameplay addiction.

:D


CuttinCurt wrote:

Its not that hard to adjust the AP's for higher level gameplay.

I am about to DM Legacy of Fire, and I know my players will be 9th-10th level at the end of Howl of the Carrion King.

I do this because my group wants to be able to cast 9th level spells by the end.

So I promised them they would get to 17th level by the begining of The Final Wish. If they do something, like multiclass, they lose this option, but they go in to the AP with that knowledge.

This means they will be 18th level by the confrontation with the big bad guy at the end.

It means more work for me as a DM, but I accept that.

Plus, the "year off" at the end of HotCK is more of a major thing at 9th/10th than at 5th.

I dont need Paizo to write 16th level stuff for me, they did a fantastic job with the AP's as is. Lets just take that info and use it for our high level gameplay addiction.

:D

Although I've been somewhat vocal with my views for higher AP ending points, I have to admit that it's pretty easy to add in an extra level per book. Adding extra levels, hit points, spell levels & DC's etc to the monsters doesn't take that much time. Also adding in new encounters using my favorite monsters is kinda cool too!!

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I also understand starting at 5th level can make the PC's unbalanced but I think that could be overcome by a loot generating table instead of allowing them to choose and customize their loot ahead of time (not that there's much at 5th level). The only other thing to overcome is customized feats they can play around with. Which I think could be worked with.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The Adventure Path is the backbone of our Golarion products. It's a "load-bearing" line of products, and quite successful. And part of its success is its formula. As a result, I'm very hesitant to start making huge changes to the formula, such as starting an AP at 5th level or going to 20th level or all that. We ARE constantly tinkering and adjusting; the set piece adventures are a good example of this. But it's not a venue where we want to make lots of huge changes all at once. Especially since if we mess it up, we're stuck with the ripples of our errors for 6 months.

That said, we're constantly listening to feedback and adjusting things as a result. It's just not a very fast procedure.

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James Jacobs wrote:

The Adventure Path is the backbone of our Golarion products. It's a "load-bearing" line of products, and quite successful. And part of its success is its formula. As a result, I'm very hesitant to start making huge changes to the formula, such as starting an AP at 5th level or going to 20th level or all that. We ARE constantly tinkering and adjusting; the set piece adventures are a good example of this. But it's not a venue where we want to make lots of huge changes all at once. Especially since if we mess it up, we're stuck with the ripples of our errors for 6 months.

That said, we're constantly listening to feedback and adjusting things as a result. It's just not a very fast procedure.

How about "outsourcing" higher level mods of one of your APs to another publisher as an option for those who want to continue the AP? Example: Grant Necromancer Games limited access to the IP that is Paizo's Rise of the Runelords AP and allow it to generate 2-3 mods in the higher tier. Y'all can then say, "hey, if you want to continue in this AP, go to the Necromancer!" (Wait, that sounded so Logue ^_^).

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joela wrote:
How about "outsourcing" higher level mods of one of your APs to another publisher as an option for those who want to continue the AP? Example: Grant Necromancer Games limited access to the IP that is Paizo's Rise of the Runelords AP and allow it to generate 2-3 mods in the higher tier. Y'all can then say, "hey, if you want to continue in this AP, go to the Necromancer!" (Wait, that sounded so Logue ^_^).

For a few reasons.

One, for pretty much the same reason you wouldn't want a stranger sleeping in your bed. It's yours, it's made the way you like it, and you don't want them - even with the best intentions - messing it up, and all the worse if they somehow break it and you have to get a new one. Folks can make Pathfinder RPG compatible stuff, but anything that deals with our world we're going to be super protective of, meaning we're going to have to read and review anything from another company before we approve it, not just for published continuity but for unpublished continuity that only we know. So that's a whole hassle for another company and us. And then what if it's just bad and we kill it outright? Hope that company didn't want to eat that month, and we don't really like being those guys.

Two, I can't think of a publisher who would want to abandon their own ideas and efforts to essentially gobble up our scraps. Especially when, like James said, these are some of the most difficult and least marketable adventures out there. It's one thing to say things like "Green Ronin and Chaosium should TOTALLY get together and make the "Cthulhuport Campaign Setting" but the simple fact is that game companies, no matter how congenial or similar, have their own strategies and goals in mind that are often hard enough to manage without grabbing onto the shirt tails of another company, or having another company grab onto their shirt tails.

The simple truth of the matter is that it sounds good on the boards, but in action it would probably be more of a hassle to let someone else do add on adventures then to just do it ourselves... but we've got some ideas.

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F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
joela wrote:
How about "outsourcing" higher level mods of one of your APs to another publisher as an option for those who want to continue the AP? Example: Grant Necromancer Games limited access to the IP that is Paizo's Rise of the Runelords AP and allow it to generate 2-3 mods in the higher tier. Y'all can then say, "hey, if you want to continue in this AP, go to the Necromancer!" (Wait, that sounded so Logue ^_^).

For a few reasons.

One, for pretty much the same reason you wouldn't want a stranger sleeping in your bed. It's yours, it's made the way you like it, and you don't want them - even with the best intentions - messing it up, and all the worse if they somehow break it and you have to get a new one. Folks can make Pathfinder RPG compatible stuff, but anything that deals with our world we're going to be super protective of, meaning we're going to have to read and review anything from another company before we approve it, not just for published continuity but for unpublished continuity that only we know. So that's a whole hassle for another company and us. And then what if it's just bad and we kill it outright? Hope that company didn't want to eat that month, and we don't really like being those guys.

Two, I can't think of a publisher who would want to abandon their own ideas and efforts to essentially gobble up our scraps. Especially when, like James said, these are some of the most difficult and least marketable adventures out there. It's one thing to say things like "Green Ronin and Chaosium should TOTALLY get together and make the "Cthulhuport Campaign Setting" but the simple fact is that game companies, no matter how congenial or similar, have their own strategies and goals in mind that are often hard enough to manage without grabbing onto the shirt tails of another company, or having another company grab onto their shirt tails.

The simple truth of the matter is that it sounds good on the boards, but in action it would probably be more of a hassle to let someone else do add on...

Understood. Appreciate the reply, Wes. ^_^


James Jacobs wrote:

The Adventure Path is the backbone of our Golarion products. It's a "load-bearing" line of products, and quite successful. And part of its success is its formula. As a result, I'm very hesitant to start making huge changes to the formula, such as starting an AP at 5th level or going to 20th level or all that. We ARE constantly tinkering and adjusting; the set piece adventures are a good example of this. But it's not a venue where we want to make lots of huge changes all at once. Especially since if we mess it up, we're stuck with the ripples of our errors for 6 months.

That said, we're constantly listening to feedback and adjusting things as a result. It's just not a very fast procedure.

Put me in the category that likes the way you are doing things and doesnt want you to change. I will get Ebon shroud but my overwhelming preference is for levels 1-12. I dont see the need to finish at 20th before my characters retire (I have done this a couple of times and it was good fun even if the last level or two did feel like we were doing it to finish it off)

Having said this it's not really right to say the AP's finish at 15th level. The first three AP's actually finish with a module for 14th-16th level characters. It would'nt be too much of a stretch to finish the AP's with characters at 17th level.

If you are looking for a finishing off adventure that is high level and can be bothered with conversion from 2ed give Monte Cook's A Paladin in Hell a look.

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