Just looking at a possible shield fighter build and had a few questions.
1. If you take improved two weapon fighting for the extra off hand attack (or the greater version for 3 off hand) does that work with the bash? Thus just getting another bash? Or is it just an attack and not a bash? Or do those feats not work with bashing at all?
2. Would the standard penalty for this sort of build be -4/-4 to main hand and shield until you get shield master? Then the penalty drops to just -4 to your main hand?
3. Shield master says that you add your shield bonus to hit and damage, would this also be the bonus gained from enchanting it? So a standard heavy shield would be +2/+2 but a +1 Heavy shield would add +3/+3 to hit/damage?
The wording is getting a little confusing as I read through it but the build is interesting to me.
I dont understand why they did not make feats for someone who wanted to be a shield DEFENDER, but thats another thread.
Just looking at a possible shield fighter build and had a few questions.
1. If you take improved two weapon fighting for the extra off hand attack (or the greater version for 3 off hand) does that work with the bash? Thus just getting another bash? Or is it just an attack and not a bash? Or do those feats not work with bashing at all?
2. Would the standard penalty for this sort of build be -4/-4 to main hand and shield until you get shield master? Then the penalty drops to just -4 to your main hand?
3. Shield master says that you add your shield bonus to hit and damage, would this also be the bonus gained from enchanting it? So a standard heavy shield would be +2/+2 but a +1 Heavy shield would add +3/+3 to hit/damage?
The wording is getting a little confusing as I read through it but the build is interesting to me.
I dont understand why they did not make feats for someone who wanted to be a shield DEFENDER, but thats another thread.
1. You count your shield as your off-hand weapon, so yes, you gain additional bash attacks when you take Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
2. With a heavy shield you would be at -4/-4, with a light shield you would be at -2/-2. And yes, when you take Shield Master you would only take a penalty with your primary attack.
3. Yes.
As far as defensive minded feats with a shield go, see the 3.5 PHB2.
Thanks, that makes sense now.
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#3 is No. Jason clarified it in this thread. Shield Mastery, besides negating the two weapon fighting penalty for the Shield attack, only adds a bonus to attack and damage equal to the (base) Shield bonus. So +2 for a Heavy, or +1 for a Light, regardless of the Shield enhancement. The bonus it adds is treated as a weapon enhancement bonus as well, so if you enhanced it as a weapon while possessing this feat the two would not stack. A heavy shield enhanced as a +3 weapon would only be +1 to attack and damage better if you had Shield Master (which already provided a +2).
Also, in case you ask, Shield Focus or Greater Shield Focus do not increase the Shield's base shield bonus for the purpose of Shield Mastery, they only add to your AC.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Why can you wield a shield in your primary hand? That just seems goofy. What prevents you from then wielding a Heavy Shield in your primary hand and a Light Shield in your off-hand to avoid all TWF penalties?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Why can you wield a shield in your primary hand? That just seems goofy. What prevents you from then wielding a Heavy Shield in your primary hand and a Light Shield in your off-hand to avoid all TWF penalties?
There's nothing that prevents you from doing it.
It's not a great choice, since you only use the better of the two shield bonuses to your AC, and other weapons would be more effective as a secondary weapon than a light shield.
But the heavy shield as a primary weapon? Heck yeah.
I had a cohort built just this way when I played through Savage Tide. A large spiked bashing shield was his primary weapon. Secondary weapon was usually armor spikes. The handy part was that since a heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, you can choose to wield it two-handed for the extra STR bonus for two-handed weapon. If you're only making one attack, as with a charge, or fighting something with a high AC where you don't want to take the attack roll penalty for TWF (or with DR you don't have, so you wanna get extra dmg to punch through it with Power Attack), use it two-handed. When you want to TWF, use one hand and use the other hand for a weapon or armor spikes.
Arguably, the bashing enchantment is entirely too good for a +1 bonus: It makes your shield a +1 weapon AND adds two sizes to its damage rating - so a spiked heavy shield does 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 damage as a one-handed weapon that can be used two-handed if you want and that oh by the way also gives you a +3 AC bonus. Not a bad deal for 4157/4165 gp.
Now, if your argument is that it's DUMB as an idea, well taste is in the tongue of the beholder... :)
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I am actually completely incorrect in my initial statement. You cannot shield bash with a shield in the primary hand.
You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
The same quote applies to the heavy shield. Based on this information, you can only shield bash if it is in your off-hand.
Please disregard my statement saying otherwise.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I am actually completely incorrect in my initial statement. You cannot shield bash with a shield in the primary hand.
You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.The same quote applies to the heavy shield. Based on this information, you can only shield bash if it is in your off-hand.
Please disregard my statement saying otherwise.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Innnnnnnnteresting.
You made me go look at my 3.5 PH to see if this was a change or a carryover.
Turns out I was cheating Cheating CHEATING!!!
So... ignore everything I wrote. Bad Jason, BAD!
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Why can you wield a shield in your primary hand? That just seems goofy. What prevents you from then wielding a Heavy Shield in your primary hand and a Light Shield in your off-hand to avoid all TWF penalties?
That would be wonky but a Shield Bash, by definition, is done with the off-hand.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
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These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
Shield spikes do not change the above, they are still used as part of a shield bash (which can only be used in the off-hand).
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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So a +1 spiked heavy shield with the bashing enhancement DOES go from 1d6 + 1/2 STR to 2d6 + 1/2 STR, right? (not bad for a off-hand weapon, which makes up a bit for the -4 you get with your primary weapon)
Now... the min/maxer in me is starting to think that my fighter (which currently has weap focus longsword and weap spec longsword SHOULD retrain to weap focus heavy shield and weap spec heavy shield, and fight with two heavy shields of bashing... 2d6 + STR main; 2d6 + 1/2 STR secondary, right?)
thoughts? flaws to this build?
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I see. Thanks Nethys!
Basically: shield bashing, with all 5 shield bash tree feats, is the ultimate two-weapon fighting build, if taken with the bashing shield enhancement.
The advantage is that you retain your AC and free bull rush people while doing it. The disadvantage is that you can't add weapon specialization damage to it (because arguably, you will put the weapon focus/spec feats on your main hand, which CANNOT BE A SHIELD).
Neat, and well-balanced. I am impressed. So much so that I wonder if this was intentional by Paizo or if it just happened via organic development process... or if they're just lucky to have accounted for all these potential loopholes! :)
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Also brings up the question: Can you take Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec with some thing that is not technically, a weapon?
I do not see why not. Despite it being a shield, it is also included on the weapons list. The fighter's Weapon Training can be used to enhance their ability with the shield bash (the Close group) so being able to take Weapon Focus or Specialization with the shield as well is fine.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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Also brings up the question: Can you take Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec with some thing that is not technically, a weapon?I do not see why not. Despite it being a shield, it is also included on the weapons list. The fighter's Weapon Training can be used to enhance their ability with the shield bash (the Close group) so being able to take Weapon Focus or Specialization with the shield as well is fine.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Yes, but you will only get mileage out of the two feats when doing a full attack, because shield bashes can only be done when wielded as a "off hand" weapon. Basically, there is no such thing as a main hand shield bash. So don't waste these two feats on shields, because you'll never be able to move and shield bash (again, shield bash in the "off hand" only)
Although... I seem to recall reading "SOMETHING" about charging and shield bashing...
NETHYS?????
:)
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In truth, I don't recall anything against using your shield (albeit in the off-hand) as your only attack after moving or on a charge. The combat section covers that off-hand attacks only add 1/2 the Strength bonus, but there's nothing that really says 'you can only do this during a full attack'.
Some of the old 3.5 feats like Shield Charge also seem to imply you can shield bash on a charge.
Seems fine to me. :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Also brings up the question: Can you take Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec with some thing that is not technically, a weapon?I do not see why not. Despite it being a shield, it is also included on the weapons list. The fighter's Weapon Training can be used to enhance their ability with the shield bash (the Close group) so being able to take Weapon Focus or Specialization with the shield as well is fine.
Your God of Knowledge,
NethysYes, but you will only get mileage out of the two feats when doing a full attack, because shield bashes can only be done when wielded as a "off hand" weapon. Basically, there is no such thing as a main hand shield bash. So don't waste these two feats on shields, because you'll never be able to move and shield bash (again, shield bash in the "off hand" only)
Although... I seem to recall reading "SOMETHING" about charging and shield bashing...
NETHYS?????
:)
Well, when you're only making one attack, there's nothing to say which hand you have to do it with. If you're a dual-wielder with a +1 flaming shortsword and a +1 frost shortsword, for instance, you might charge and use your primary hand weapon (we'll say the fire one) if you're fighting a troll and you might charge and use the frost one if you're fighting a salamander. I guess it would still count as your off-hand weapon, tho, in terms of STR bonus and/or Power Attack. Strange that it should be so, since it's your ONLY attack, but I suppose the rules can't cover EVERYTHING.
It does not count as your off hand weapon but as your light weapon. And power attack is weaker with light weapon, but you can get full Strength mod for that attack.
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It does not count as your off hand weapon but as your light weapon. And power attack is weaker with light weapon, but you can get full Strength mod for that attack.
Where do you see that? The way I read it, you can only use Shield Bash as an off-hand attack. Is there some text that says an off-hand attack counts as a light attack when it is your only one?
Going back to Nethys' logic, because the shield is listed in the weapons table as a light weapon, I would allow it to be used as a primary weapon.
Even though the text states that you may use the shield bash as an offhand weapon, that does not in of itself expressly forbid you from doing so as a primary weapon.
Basically this tells me "Hey. This can be used as a weapon, too. In fact, it's considered light, even if it's big and bulky and heavier than a greatsword, and as such, can be used as an off-hand weapon."
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I did some research on this issue, and may have to revise my conclusion... again. Which I do so dislike doing. If it matters to some DMs, this is the ruling from 3.5.
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course, that means that any attack you make with your other hand becomes a secondary weapon.
Unfortunately, it appears this makes the 'dual wield shields' bit viable again, which I am still unsure of.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
To nip the two shields issue in the bud, there's only one shield slot on the body, as per page 459.
Unfortunately, it appears this makes the 'dual wield shields' bit viable again, which I am still unsure of.
Unfortunate indeed. Two-shield fighting being better in all ways than 2-weapon fighting crosses the line for me, from being "borderline silly" to "just plain nonsensical." I'm going to add a stepladder to the weapons chart now that does 2d20/18-20/x4, because that would roxxor or whatever.
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To nip the two shields issue in the bud, there's only one shield slot on the body, as per page 459.
While I wish that solved it, that's only really talking about slots for magic gear. Note it doesn't mention any 'weapons' there either. So while it's only possible to get the magic shield benefit from a single shield, you could still dual-wield shields.
Doing more research, it looks like this was a problem in 3.5 as well. I might actually just recommend a house rule until Paizo has a chance to look at it further.
Is it really a problem to dual wield shields and use both shields for bashing? As was said previously, you can't stack shield ac, and you can't stack shield enhancement bonus.
And I hope you can't add the smaller shield's better enhancement bonus to the larger shield, but from a balance perspective, I don't think there's a big deal associated with doing so. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Is it really a problem to dual wield shields and use both shields for bashing? As was said previously, you can't stack shield ac, and you can't stack shield enhancement bonus.
And I hope you can't add the smaller shield's better enhancement bonus to the larger shield, but from a balance perspective, I don't think there's a big deal associated with doing so. It just doesn't make any sense.
Flavor-wise I have no issues with it. It's mostly a mechanical one. A +1 bashing spiked heavy shield (not that expensive) is a 2d6 weapon, which is pretty nice. Stick two of them on a character and sure, you have that annoying -4 TWF penalty, but then Shield Mastery comes along and negates both of them.
So what we get is that, mechanically speaking, a dual-wielder with two +1 bashing spiked heavy shields has a better attack roll and better base damage than a guy with two weapons, not to mention he has some AC boost on top of it.
I doubt many will try this, but it does seem like something that needs addressing.
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I think the slot list on page 459 addresses it. I think the RAW for shield bashes also addresses it (i.e. "can only be used in the off-hand")
Adding back 3.5 wording is what confuses the issue. So don't refer to 3.5 and stick to PRPG, and you'll have no problem. Bottom line:
"Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants
to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for
a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as
15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items
must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known
as a “slot.”
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear
consisting of one item from each of the following groups,
keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.
Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts,
and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of
the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond
those in the slots listed above have no effect.
Some items can be worn or carried without taking up a slot
on a character’s body. The description of an item indicates
when an item has this property."
The last bolded sentence could be interpreted that a second shield carried in the other hand is inactive (i.e. has no effect, so cannot provide more AC, cannot provide the bashing property, cannot provide the animated propertly, etc. it's basically an inert object you'd carry just for carrying's sake... better have it strapped on your back).
I don't buy the "it's a weapon because it's in the weapon table argument," because when you go read the text on shield bash, it's clear that it's meant to be used only in the off-hand.
Cased closed on this end. :)
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I don't buy the "it's a weapon because it's in the weapon table argument," because when you go read the text on shield bash, it's clear that it's meant to be used only in the off-hand.
The problem with that involves the FAQ quoted by Nethys above. At least in 3.5, which had the same text, the shield could indeed be used in the Primary hand. In fact, dual-wielding shields as far as rules is concerned looks to be legal, heck, Wizards made a miniature utilizing it (see above).
The magic item text is just referencing magic item special abilities. If you go by it literally, you can't actually wield any magic weapons (they aren't mentioned on that list). It doesn't seem like the right thing to go by.
My personal point of view (not sure if RAW or not) is that you can only do 1 single Shield Bash per round, no matter the number of Two-Weapon Fighting feats you possess, period.
Looked in this way, all the Shield Bash chain of feats are not overpowered at all (even with a Spiked Bashing Heavy Shield): either you make a single, powerful attack without penalties, or a 'flurry' of less powerful attacks (this is debatable if you use a Bastard Sword in your off-hand) with slight penalties.
These are my motivations:
- the description for Shield Bash attacks (on page 152) doesn't specifically disallow multiple attacks, but it doesn't specifically say that you are allowed to multiple attacks, either. The fact that a Shield Bash damage is listed under the weapon table is irrilevant for me - after all, where should you list the damage of something, except where there are all other damage values?
- a Bull Rush is a standard action or part of a charge attack. The Shield Bash feat says: "Any opponents hit by your shield bash (note: calling it 'your shield bash' and not 'one of your shield bash attacks' seem to imply that you can only make one per round, but maybe it's only me) are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check."
Giving the chance to make multiple Bull Rush attacks per round is IMHO not the intention of this feat.
- Shield Master elimites all penalties with the attacks you make with your shield, but not with your main weapon. I truly do not believe that a feat that allows for better 'off-hand' attacks than 'main hand' attacks also allows for multiple attacks per round. Again, maybe it's only me.
- what the Sage answered in the 3.x FAQs is almost irrelevant in PRPG - those answers were for a system slightly different than this, where a Monk could not combine Two-Weapon Fighting with a Flurry of Blows in one explanation, then suddenly he could in another explanation, and so on.
Again, maybe (probably ?) my motivations are not specifically RAW (again, they are not specifically 'not RAW' either), but I personally think are RAI (Rules As Intended), and the way I will play then anyway, so think about it.
Of course, an official answer (like that on the bonus effectively granted by Shield Master) would be THE solution on this matter.
Just my 2c.
Neat, and well-balanced. I am impressed.
I'm sorry, balanced? I don't think having a shield and a weapon should do more damage than having two weapons. But that's just me.
These feats need some heavy re-balancing.
but I suppose the rules can't cover EVERYTHING.
Further, the rules shouldn't cover everything. They are a representation construct to help assist with conflict resolution. They are not meant to be stone-bound contracts to live your life by.
My question is can the shield be used in an attack of opportunity?
yes. "You can bash with a shield instead
of using it for defense" "You can bash an opponent with a... shield, using it as an off-hand weapon".
Bashing makes it an off-hand weapon. So you can use it for an AoO with the appropriate off-hand penalties.
If someone provokes can you put him into the wall with shield slam and then just keep slamming him when he tries to get up or move?
Not when the creature tries to get up. You can't knock down someone who's already prone, and you can't trip someone on the AoO provoked by trying to get up. You can do damage though.
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I wonder if the bonuses from the bashing special ability and shield spikes stack?
Normally when you have like effects only the best applies, but that may only apply to numeric bonuses and not be relavent here.
Shield spikes increase the damage of the shield as if it was one size category larger and makes it piercing damage.
Bashing increases the damage of the shield as if it was two size categories larger and makes it act as a +1 weapon.
Bashing also specifically states that a medium light shield does 1d6 and a medium heavy shield does 1d8 damage and that only light and heavy shields can have this ability (so no tower sheilds or bucklers). Unfortunately bashing doesn't mention anything about shield spikes.
So can bashing be placed on a spiked shield and if so, do the effects stack?
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Neat, and well-balanced. I am impressed.I'm sorry, balanced? I don't think having a shield and a weapon should do more damage than having two weapons. But that's just me.
These feats need some heavy re-balancing.
I don't think it is the feats. I think it is the bashing special ability. I think it should be clarified if it stacks with shield spikes and if it does it should be reduced to a one size catagory increase. Without the bashing ability you are only doing a max of 1d6 (medium, hvy spiked shield) damage with a shield bash.
Did anyone else read this thread title as :
"Shield bashing and Imp.
Two Weapon Fighting." ?