Backwards compability for skill rank prereqs for feats / prc's


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


In Pathfinder you cannot have your level + 3 ranks anymore in a skill. The maximum number of ranks you can have is your level. The +3 has been turned into a +3 bonus for class skills.

For 3.5 compatibility this poses a problem as feats and prestige classes that use skill ranks for prerequisites can only be acquired 3 levels later than it used to be. Archmage & Hierophant at lvl 15 instead of lvl 12, Blackguard at lvl 5 instead of 2 and a feat such as swift concentration at lvl 12 instead of 9.

Waiting 3 levels can be quite a lot and may screw up Prc combinations.

Has this been on purpose or was this an oversight? I'd like to see a rule 'for determining skill prerequisites, you may add this +3 bonus' or something.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

When using 3.5 PrC in Pathfinder, treat any skill requirements as 3 ranks lower (eg. required 8 ranks Tumble 4 ranks Diplomacy becomes 5 ranks Acrobatics 1 rank Diplomacy).


Not an oversight, not really an issue.

Liberty's Edge

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Not an oversight, not really an issue.

Agreed. If you have access to the PRPG version of the PrC, just use that. If you only have the 3.x version, just subtract three from the ranks required.

Extremely simple.


Not quite as simple as the above posters make it seem, but not really complicated either.

For example (completely made up!)
Prestige class requires 8 ranks in tumble, and 5 ranks in intimidate to qualify. If the class you are coming from has tumble as a class skill, then you would need to be 5th level to get the ranks in tumble (4+1+1+1+1). If intimidate was cross class, you would need to be 7th level to get the ranks in intimidate (2+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5).

So if it is a class skill then ranks-3. If it is a cross class skill then (2*ranks)-3 are the formulas.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Liberty's Edge

According to Pathfinder Society guide, most of the allowable Prestige classes say to decrease skill rank requirements by 3.


Understand, but that is a simplification, not a completely accurate picture, and it is for the Pathfinder Society. Even though it was taken out of the final rules, it is there in the Beta as a Designer Note.

-- david
Papa.DRB

stardust wrote:
According to Pathfinder Society guide, most of the allowable Prestige classes say to decrease skill rank requirements by 3.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Papa-DRB wrote:

Not quite as simple as the above posters make it seem, but not really complicated either.

For example (completely made up!)
Prestige class requires 8 ranks in tumble, and 5 ranks in intimidate to qualify. If the class you are coming from has tumble as a class skill, then you would need to be 5th level to get the ranks in tumble (4+1+1+1+1). If intimidate was cross class, you would need to be 7th level to get the ranks in intimidate (2+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5).

So if it is a class skill then ranks-3. If it is a cross class skill then (2*ranks)-3 are the formulas.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Not exactly. According to PFRG "If the skill you're using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check."

That's a bonus to check, not extra ranks. You need to stop thinking in 3ed "class/criss-cross class" ways :)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Papa-DRB wrote:

Not quite as simple as the above posters make it seem, but not really complicated either.

For example (completely made up!)
Prestige class requires 8 ranks in tumble, and 5 ranks in intimidate to qualify. If the class you are coming from has tumble as a class skill, then you would need to be 5th level to get the ranks in tumble (4+1+1+1+1). If intimidate was cross class, you would need to be 7th level to get the ranks in intimidate (2+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5).

So if it is a class skill then ranks-3. If it is a cross class skill then (2*ranks)-3 are the formulas.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Not exactly. According to PFRG "If the skill you're using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check."

That's a bonus to check, not extra ranks. You need to stop thinking in 3ed "class/criss-cross class" ways :)

Sorry,

But that makes no sense. "Stop thinking of 3ed class/cross class skills when converting skill requirements from 3ed to PFRPG".

That's sort of like saying "Stop thinking of German when you're translating something from German to English.".

The original question was, how do I use a 3ED Feat that has a skill pre-requisite after PFRPG's changes to skills. To do that, you have to adapt the feat in question. Papa-DRB got it exactly right.

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:
Papa-DRB wrote:

Not quite as simple as the above posters make it seem, but not really complicated either.

For example (completely made up!)
Prestige class requires 8 ranks in tumble, and 5 ranks in intimidate to qualify. If the class you are coming from has tumble as a class skill, then you would need to be 5th level to get the ranks in tumble (4+1+1+1+1). If intimidate was cross class, you would need to be 7th level to get the ranks in intimidate (2+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5+.5).

So if it is a class skill then ranks-3. If it is a cross class skill then (2*ranks)-3 are the formulas.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Not exactly. According to PFRG "If the skill you're using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check."

That's a bonus to check, not extra ranks. You need to stop thinking in 3ed "class/criss-cross class" ways :)

No, Papa-DRB is correct. In the example he describes (prereqs of Tumble 8 and Intimidate 5, where Tumble is a class skill for you and Intimidate is not), a 3.5 character would have to be 7th level to qualify. If you follow the simple "-3 ranks" guideline, a PRPG character could qualify at 5th level because of the removal of cross-class penalties.

Personally, I hate hate hate hate cross-class penalties, and I don't see it as a necessarily bad thing that some PCs might be able to qualify a little easier than they used to. If the nature of the PrC makes it essential that you can only qualify at 7th level, then make "Character level 7 or higher" a prereq. Though, to be honest, I can't think of any PrCs off the top of my head that would need such a thing.

I stand by my previous statement: use the PRPG version of the PrC. If you only have the 3.x version, just drop the skill prereqs by 3.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To be honest, I just ejected the cross-class stuff from my brain and when a player asks me "hey I need 8 ranks for a feat/prc ?" I tell them to go with x-3 and damn the whole cross class stuff. Sheesh, 3.5 skill system, so glad Jason Got It Right.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
To be honest, I just ejected the cross-class stuff from my brain and when a player asks me "hey I need 8 ranks for a feat/prc ?" I tell them to go with x-3 and damn the whole cross class stuff. Sheesh, 3.5 skill system, so glad Jason Got It Right.

I agree 100% with that. New skill system is WAY better.

Scarab Sages

Gorbacz wrote:
To be honest, I just ejected the cross-class stuff from my brain and when a player asks me "hey I need 8 ranks for a feat/prc ?" I tell them to go with x-3 and damn the whole cross class stuff. Sheesh, 3.5 skill system, so glad Jason Got It Right.

agreed, and it's been talked about since Beta, PrCs skill rank requirements are reduced by 3. Nuff said. Forget cross-class, forget 3.5..

3.5 Reincarnated in the form of Pathfinder!


I've been thinking on this from the feat perspective more than PrCs, as I've started converting all the OGC Pathfinder setting feats over to PRPG. In the process, I found that some feats take a little thought to come at the new prerequisites. For instance, a feat that required Hide 4 ranks could be converted to Stealth 1 rank. However, every character can then qualify with a single skill rank at 1st level versus the cross-class issue noted above causing some 3.5 characters to not qualify until 5th level. For these, I've been thinking of expanding the feat prerequisite out a bit to be something like "Stealth 5 ranks, or 1 rank if Stealth is a class skill" as this keeps the feat in line with earlier restrictions. It's a bit more cumbersome, though, so I've been mulling it over without coming to a solid decision as yet.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
To be honest, I just ejected the cross-class stuff from my brain and when a player asks me "hey I need 8 ranks for a feat/prc ?" I tell them to go with x-3 and damn the whole cross class stuff. Sheesh, 3.5 skill system, so glad Jason Got It Right.

If it makes you feel better the Conversion Guide agrees with you.

For Feats

Conversion guide p14 wrote:
If the feat refers to skills in any way, such as in the prerequisites or benefit line, make sure that the skill in question has not changed names or been removed from the game. If the feat requires that the character have a specific number of ranks in a particular skill, change that requirement to the listed number – 3 (minimum 1 rank)

For Prestige Classes:

Conversion guide p15 wrote:
Make sure to check the prestige class requirements (and the rest of the class) for any skills that have been altered or removed from the game and adjust them accordingly. In addition, the skill rank requirements should be equal to the 3.5 requirements – 3 (minimum 1 rank). Note that some of the core prestige classes do not follow this formula exactly and you should consider these requirements carefully.

Liberty's Edge

mdt wrote:
The original question was, how do I use a 3ED prestige class that has a skill pre-requisite after PFRPG's changes to skills. To do that, you have to adapt the prestige class in question. Papa-DRB got it exactly right.

Fixed that for you. ;D

Scarab Sages

erian_7 wrote:
I've been thinking on this from the feat perspective more than PrCs, as I've started converting all the OGC Pathfinder setting feats over to PRPG. In the process, I found that some feats take a little thought to come at the new prerequisites. For instance, a feat that required Hide 4 ranks could be converted to Stealth 1 rank. However, every character can then qualify with a single skill rank at 1st level versus the cross-class issue noted above causing some 3.5 characters to not qualify until 5th level. For these, I've been thinking of expanding the feat prerequisite out a bit to be something like "Stealth 5 ranks, or 1 rank if Stealth is a class skill" as this keeps the feat in line with earlier restrictions. It's a bit more cumbersome, though, so I've been mulling it over without coming to a solid decision as yet.

I think that would depend on the feat, Perhaps just make it 3 ranks and split the difference, then again some OGC feats are already overpowered and need to be removed completely or have their requirements bumped.

There was a site that was putting all the OGC content online I found, but then I lost it, anyone have that site?


Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

I think that would depend on the feat, Perhaps just make it 3 ranks and split the difference, then again some OGC feats are already overpowered and need to be removed completely or have their requirements bumped.

There was a site that was putting all the OGC content online I found, but then I lost it, anyone have that site?

You mean the Grand OGL Wiki perhaps?

I did consider a split the difference approach, but then you end up with nice "starting off" feats restricted from 1st level characters. Note that these are all feats from Pathfinder, not OGC feats in general, and so they are mostly specific to Golarion and the setting.

A specific example would be Black Marketeer from Osirion, Land of the Pharaohs. The feat grants the following:

OGC from Osirion, Land of the Pharaohs wrote:
By utilizing your black market connections, you acquire a resource pool worth 100 gp. This functions like the resource pool gained by the Profits of Kalistrade feat (see Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting page 73) except it can only be used on illegal or illicit items or services (note that something may be illegal or illicit in one area but perfectly acceptable in another) and is centered on Osirion rather than Druma. Typical illegal or illicit items are drugs, poisons, evil magic items, slaves, or dead bodies, though intangibles such as secret information may also qualify (and for these items, a secret of equal value—at the GM’s discretion—must be contributed to the pool).

A nice little feat for roguish types looking to have a underworld tie-in. The 3.5 Prerequisites are Appraise 4 ranks, Gather Information 4 ranks, Knowledge (local) 4 ranks. So, a 3.5 Rogue could pick that up pretty readily, while some bruiser Fighter couldn't pull it off until many levels later. Changing this for Pathfinder we could get Appraise 1 rank, Diplomacy 1 rank, Knowledge (local) 1 rank. This theoretically allows a Ftr1 to pick up the feat. On one hand, you're still looking at a pretty heavy skill point requirement and I'd say if a player wants to aim his Ftr1 in that direction, he should take the feat. On the other hand, the feat pretty clearly favored specific classes in its original form. Honoring that intent, the prerequisites might become Appraise 1 rank, Diplomacy 1 rank, Knowledge (local) 4 ranks (or 1 rank if class skill).

It's not a major issue, and in most cases the simple "old rank-3" will likely work just fine. Just something I've been thinking about...


And if this works for your group, by all means do it!

I, however, am more finicky (my grandson would say anal-retentive) and would do it the way I stated above. As usual, YMMV.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:
I stand by my previous statement: use the PRPG version of the PrC. If you only have the 3.x version, just drop the skill prereqs by 3.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Paul Watson wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
To be honest, I just ejected the cross-class stuff from my brain and when a player asks me "hey I need 8 ranks for a feat/prc ?" I tell them to go with x-3 and damn the whole cross class stuff. Sheesh, 3.5 skill system, so glad Jason Got It Right.

If it makes you feel better the Conversion Guide agrees with you.

For Feats

Conversion guide p14 wrote:
If the feat refers to skills in any way, such as in the prerequisites or benefit line, make sure that the skill in question has not changed names or been removed from the game. If the feat requires that the character have a specific number of ranks in a particular skill, change that requirement to the listed number – 3 (minimum 1 rank)

For Prestige Classes:

Conversion guide p15 wrote:
Make sure to check the prestige class requirements (and the rest of the class) for any skills that have been altered or removed from the game and adjust them accordingly. In addition, the skill rank requirements should be equal to the 3.5 requirements – 3 (minimum 1 rank). Note that some of the core prestige classes do not follow this formula exactly and you should consider these requirements carefully.

Hmmm,

Not sure I agree with the feats. The PrC's work because of the Note at the end. As is stated above, certain feats are aimed at certain classes (like rogue/bard or fighter/paladin or druid/ranger or sorcerer/wizard feats, and should be gainable by those classes easier than others). This was taken care of in 3E by skill ranks, which was an elegant solution for this (skill ranks were a bad solution in and of themselves, but the prereqs worked well off that bad solution). I think, perhaps, that the prereqs should be something like this :

Pre-requisites :
Skill : Knowledge (Local) 6, Appraise 6.

Where ALL bonus's to the skill count.

So, if a Fighter has an INT 18 (+4) and puts 2 ranks into both skills at first and second level, he qualifies for the feat at second level. A Rogue with an 18 INT qualifies at 1st level if he puts 1 rank into the skills (4 + 1 + 3 for class = 8). This gives someone with a racial bonus to a skill a leg up on someone who's got none as well. Which makes sense, since someone who has a racial bonus to something is better than someone without it and should be able to pick up the feat easier than someone else.

Too late to get this into the beta of course, would have to be houseruled of course. One way to do it would be to add 2 to the 3E version (assuming a +2 average for stat), and add 5 to the PFRPG version (+2 for stat, +3 for class bonus).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
mdt wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
To be honest, I just ejected the cross-class stuff from my brain and when a player asks me "hey I need 8 ranks for a feat/prc ?" I tell them to go with x-3 and damn the whole cross class stuff. Sheesh, 3.5 skill system, so glad Jason Got It Right.

If it makes you feel better the Conversion Guide agrees with you.

For Feats

Conversion guide p14 wrote:
If the feat refers to skills in any way, such as in the prerequisites or benefit line, make sure that the skill in question has not changed names or been removed from the game. If the feat requires that the character have a specific number of ranks in a particular skill, change that requirement to the listed number – 3 (minimum 1 rank)

For Prestige Classes:

Conversion guide p15 wrote:
Make sure to check the prestige class requirements (and the rest of the class) for any skills that have been altered or removed from the game and adjust them accordingly. In addition, the skill rank requirements should be equal to the 3.5 requirements – 3 (minimum 1 rank). Note that some of the core prestige classes do not follow this formula exactly and you should consider these requirements carefully.

Hmmm,

Not sure I agree with the feats. The PrC's work because of the Note at the end. As is stated above, certain feats are aimed at certain classes (like rogue/bard or fighter/paladin or druid/ranger or sorcerer/wizard feats, and should be gainable by those classes easier than others). This was taken care of in 3E by skill ranks, which was an elegant solution for this (skill ranks were a bad solution in and of themselves, but the prereqs worked well off that bad solution). I think, perhaps, that the prereqs should be something like this :

Pre-requisites :
Skill : Knowledge (Local) 6, Appraise 6.

Where ALL bonus's to the skill count.

So, if a Fighter has an INT 18 (+4) and puts 2 ranks into both skills at first and second level, he qualifies for the feat at second level. A...

Or for simplicity, just allow class skill bonuses to count for 3.5. That way you don't need to add anything to the unconverted feats and prestige classes.

Scarab Sages

YES!!! THE GRAND OGL WIKI!!! THANK YOU!!!

-------------------------------------------

Nice solution Paul.


Paul Watson wrote:
Or for simplicity, just allow class skill bonuses to count for 3.5. That way you don't need to add anything to the unconverted feats and prestige classes.

Yep, that's pretty much what my approach does in dropping the ranks down by 3 if it's a class skill. With my overall goal being to actually automate these changes in a spreadsheet, I need consistent logic to apply for all feats in order to build a formula.


Papa-DRB wrote:

And if this works for your group, by all means do it!

I, however, am more finicky (my grandson would say anal-retentive) and would do it the way I stated above. As usual, YMMV.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:
I stand by my previous statement: use the PRPG version of the PrC. If you only have the 3.x version, just drop the skill prereqs by 3.

You had it completely right for the Beta, but as posted above from the Conversion guide, it changed.

That way does perfectly preserve the level points of meeting prerequisites in 3.5 - but at some point I realized that that wasn't necessarily the goal we should be striving for. But if having a difference between class and not makes sense to you, I'd suggest just including the class skill bonus (even retro-fitting that requirement onto the current ones).

I do definitely reserve the right to make any "4 ranks - 3" to equal at least 2 though :)

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