Ok, I was reading the Pathfinder Core rulebook (by the way, beautiful work guys!) and really liked the rules for item creation.
I like that XP is not spent any more, but that crafting carries a risk, not only of losing your investment, but also of creating a cursed item. However, it appears to me that the check DC is so easy that any mediocre spellcaster with the proper level and feat can do an item with mostly no risk. I searched in the boards, but I am not sure if this was discussed elsewhere.
The DC for making the item is given by 5 + caster level for the item. Ok, let us assume that a 7th level wizard wants to craft a 7th level item. This results in a DC 12 for doing it.
Assuming the wizard has maximized his Spellcraft skill (a reasonable assumption, since spellcraft is, arguably, one of the most useful skills in the game), he would have +10 to his skill check before including his int bonus. Considering an int 16 for a 7th level wizard, his check goes to +13 and he cannot accidentally create a cursed item even while rushing (which increases the DC to 17)!
Am I getting the rules right ? Or is there something I am missing ? If this is right, does anyone know what were the design reasons behind this low DC ? I was not here during beta so I am not privy to what was discussed at the time. :)
Maybe it was intentionally easy for a specialist like a Wizard to do it so that multi-class and others can do it except with risk involved.
I know, but as it seems almost automatic for any wizard, I am afraid that this ends up going counter to some of the other stuff that was done to the rules. For instance, the change on the availabilty of magical items (which I love). This seemed a move that would improve the diversity of items characters would use, instead of the usual package (cloak of resistance, circlet/cape/girdle of [insert attribute], etc. However, by making it so easy to do the items with practically no risk, I think the situation persists.
Well, it is quite easy to house-rule by just bumping the DC a bit.
Yup. Casters with item creation feats should prettymuch be making magic items all the time. Even while adventuring, you can squeeze in 2 hours of work per day by default (i.e 250 GP worth of item, from 125 worth of raw materials), and you get to make exactly what your group wants.
What I don't like about this (and, really, never have) is the way the speed of creation never changes. All casters spend one day per 1,000 GP of base price, which is to say, all professional item creators make 500 GP per day. Regardless of level or skill.
As your INT increases, you can probably afford to rush the creation, but even that only doubles it (allowing you to make 1,00 GP per day).
Low-level wizards should be scribing scrolls and brewing potions like there's no tomorrow, but this tactic is much less exciting at higher levels.
Also, every single item you craft should only be usable by (insert race or class of the person you intend to use it). 30% discount.
Also, you should never make a ring of deflection +5. You should make a ring of deflection +1, an item to grant a +1 luck bonus to AC, an item to grant a +1 insight bonus to AC, an item to grant a +1 sacred bonus to AC, and an item to grant a +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
Basically, problems which have already been there, but which 3.P potentially exacerbates by making item creation so painless (and potentially making it faster). Unless I've missed something.
Also, every single item you craft should only be usable by (insert race or class of the person you intend to use it). 30% discount.
Also, you should never make a ring of deflection +5. You should make a ring of deflection +1, an item to grant a +1 luck bonus to AC, an item to grant a +1 insight bonus to AC, an item to grant a +1 sacred bonus to AC, and an item to grant a +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
Basically, problems which have already been there, but which 3.P potentially exacerbates by making item creation so painless (and potentially making it faster). Unless I've missed something.
Yes, but there's the question of body slots for items. You only get so many.
Making items for the whole party is great, but it still costs you feats and time.
Just having every body slot filled is a bit to christmas-tree-ish for my tastes.
I mean, there are fourteen freaking body slots, not counting held items.
I do not ever want to run a game where every character is wearing 14 passive items (which, of course, is why I never game high level- Pathfinder didn't invent this problem, they just didn't fix it).
Just having every body slot filled is a bit to christmas-tree-ish for my tastes.
I mean, there are fourteen freaking body slots, not counting held items.
I do not ever want to run a game where every character is wearing 14 passive items (which, of course, is why I never game high level- Pathfinder didn't invent this problem, they just didn't fix it).
I see your point here, but high level characters are going to fill slots as fast as they can make/buy them. I've always enjoyed playing high-level characters, but GMing them is another matter.
Like the 3.5 books said, you can throw anything at them. I once allowed 4 20th-level dwarves to take anything from the splat books they wanted (but no psionics), just for fun. Talk about min/maxing! It took 4 pit fiends to get to an almost-TPK, and even then, they were fine the next day.
I hope PF sticks with core rules for a while. Let's see how it plays out before they start changing things.
They're getting 50 bucks per rulebook. Keeping it playable for now seems like the best route to go, IMHO.
Any big problems should be apparent after a year or so, with the new rules. Paizo isn't starving right now. Let's wait and see.
Just one quick thing to add. I randomly threw that out. I wouldn't be opposed to increasing the base DC to CL+10, or to decreasing the amount crafted per point of success per day (Maybe 200?) It's just a base idea for fleshing out.
hmmm...I like this idea of amount per success. In fact, I would use a combination of both increasing the DC and this. I would like to make it so that, if someone wants to be a competent crafter he must spend some resources (like skill focus). And I would like to have more risk involved in the whole process, but no so much that the item creation feats become useless.
Sure the DC is low, but then in 3.5 it was automatic no roll required. I don't really see a problem with keeping the DC low. Making a standard item that you can make SHOULD be almost automatic.
In 3.5 9th level wizard with the feat Craft arms and Armor decide to make a +3, Holy, Axiomatic, great sword of Speed with no roll.
In Pathfinder a 9th level wizard with the feat craft arms and armor can make a +2, Holy, Axiomatic, great sword of speed with a spellcraft roll of 14.
Do we really want to make it harder? It already is minimally harder then 3.5.
He did have to spend experience points, which helped balance it out. Now we don't. I also think that making it riskier would make it more interesting. Oh, and that "cursed item" rule will probably never get into play with this DC. Unless the wizard is trying to make cleric items, or any stuff like that. And even then, he might do it nearly risk-free with a high enough intelligence.
He did have to spend experience points, which helped balance it out. Now we don't.
And cue the enormous red herrings...
Please read carefully, because I don't want to have to repost this again. Experience costs were removed for a reason - because experience calculation changed. In 3.5 if you spent experience and fell behind in experience you would eventually catchup because lower level characters gain more experience from challenges than do higher level characters. That is no longer the case, meaning that should you spend experience for whatever reason you are effectively permanently committing yourself to be that amount of experience behind the rest of the party. You would turn item crafting and limited wish/greater restoration casting into a noose around spellcasters necks that they tightened with each potion or spell.
Magic item crafting is already balanced by two factors - first, the cost of a feat, and second the time required to craft the magic items. Often you will not be able to craft at will due to campaign constraints.
I know, I know, one feat isn't worth double your wealth. If that is how you are arbitrating magic item crafting than you have larger problems in your game. PCs are expected to have a specific amount of wealth at each level. If they are crafting items at half cost then you should reduce treasure awards to compensate to keep them in line. Effectively what the crafting feats let you do is choose your wealth, given the time, rather than have it randomly drawn for you.
Given that is the only bonus, and given that you are already spending feats, I do not see the need to further complicate matters by making the DC to craft items overly difficult. Instead let cursed items be the result of incompetent spellcasters attempting crafting.
There is something missing from this discussion in my opinion. Yes a competent crafter with the feats, spells, and skills to create an item has a very easy chance to make the item properly. This is true and should be as most magic items in the game are not cursed.
However, with the Master Craftsman feat you have can have a dwarven fighter trying to make enchanted haste plate, flaming axes, and dancing shields.
You may also have a character trying to make an item based off of a spell he does not know. (This only works for non-spell completion items.)
Finally you may have a character trying to make an item that had a higher caster level then they are.
In all of those cases the DC is increased by +5 for each prerequisite they are missing. The only prereq that cannot be bypassed is the item creation feat itself.
So in these cases the odds of success go down and the chance of someone "pushing the envelope" and making a cursed item go way up.
There is something missing from this discussion in my opinion. Yes a competent crafter with the feats, spells, and skills to create an item has a very easy chance to make the item properly. This is true and should be as most magic items in the game are not cursed.
However, with the Master Craftsman feat you have can have a dwarven fighter trying to make enchanted haste plate, flaming axes, and dancing shields.
You may also have a character trying to make an item based off of a spell he does not know. (This only works for non-spell completion items.)
Finally you may have a character trying to make an item that had a higher caster level then they are.
In all of those cases the DC is increased by +5 for each prerequisite they are missing. The only prereq that cannot be bypassed is the item creation feat itself.
So in these cases the odds of success go down and the chance of someone "pushing the envelope" and making a cursed item go way up.
These are points that jumped out at me as well.
In my current campaign there is some crafting being done by a fighter, as well as some ambitious crafting being done by a sorcerer. There are chances of creating cursed items.
I believe that the DC is at the right level.
He did have to spend experience points, which helped balance it out. Now we don't.And cue the enormous red herrings...
Please read carefully, because I don't want to have to repost this again.
Why the snark ? I don't think anything I said deserved this, might want to watch your manners, sir.
As for your in-topic comments, thanks for your opinion. I am going to take this and the comments of the other posters into consideration when deciding whether to house-rule it or not.
If you think its too easy to craft, there is always the option of not allowing permanent magic item creation feats. This has happened a lot in the games I've played. Also, I've found lack of down time to be fairly common in most games.
If you think its too easy to craft, there is always the option of not allowing permanent magic item creation feats. This has happened a lot in the games I've played. Also, I've found lack of down time to be fairly common in most games.
Nah, I wouldn't want to remove the option altogether, just want to spice up things a little. Yeah, time can hamper a bit magic item crafting, but now the work can be done during travelling times (albeit at a slower rate). I did not examine it in detail, maybe time is enough to make it more difficult.
However, I really liked kryt-rider idea of "crafting magic items as craft checks". I am thinking in tampering with the craft DC a bit and experiment with it.
I also think that making it riskier would make it more interesting. Oh, and that "cursed item" rule will probably never get into play with this DC. Unless the wizard is trying to make cleric items, or any stuff like that. And even then, he might do it nearly risk-free with a high enough intelligence.
I think you're underestimating the desire for players to make items that should be beyond their capability.
Also items *need* to be reasonable craftible for players other than Wizards. A cleric/sorcerer/ranger/paladin with maxed out spellcraft but a 10 Int will fail the roll on a 1 (happened to me last night actually). If they don't have spellcraft maxed (and what paladins do?) it could be quite difficult.
I think you're underestimating the desire for players to make items that should be beyond their capability.
Yeah, I think this is true :)
I don't think many paladins are going to take item creation feats.
Clerics will, though, even though they aren't going to have a spectacular INT, because they can make so many items that wizards can't. Same with druids. But even they only need a 12 int to auto-succeed (and, if you don't have that, you don't really need to take item creation feats).
You really have to reach to make a cursed item, though, since that requires you to fail by 5 or more. What's more, there's really no incentive to reach like that for the average item crafter, since they're making 500-1,000 GP per day no matter what they're trying to craft. Indeed, making weaker items is preferable, not only because you can rush it with no chance of failure but also because you don't need such a large initial investment and can get a steadier return.
This is where my paltry understanding of economics butts in on my suspension of disbelief. The demands of an actual magical economy would drive the market prices of cheap items down below their base cost (though still somewhere above the cost to create, of course), while the market price of powerful items would need to skyrocket in order to coax the rare high-level item crafter into making them.
For anyone interest, here is what I do (or did, that was written for 3.5/Beta).
For anyone interest, here is what I do (or did, that was written for 3.5/Beta).
There are some nice ideas here, thanks!
I think I will outlaw cohorts/followers with item creation feats...nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem...
Lol! My players don't have the guts to pitch stuff like that to me.
For anyone interest, here is what I do (or did, that was written for 3.5/Beta).There are some nice ideas here, thanks!
Upon rereading, I see a few typos and things that I failed to remove. These same rules applied to creating new spells and I see I missed removing some straggler info. I'll clean it up shortly.
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I think I will outlaw cohorts/followers with item creation feats...nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem...Lol! My players don't have the guts to pitch stuff like that to me.
I usually outthink my players, and disallow things before it becomes a problem, like that...then I put it in my house-rules...easy!
I think I will outlaw cohorts/followers with item creation feats...nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem...
Can I ask why?
The same amount of money has to be spent either way.
The same amount of time has to be spent either way - with the possible exception of creating while adventuring.
This no longer risks "avoiding the XP cost."
So why would it be a problem if the cohorts/followers have item creation feats?
The most expensive item a 1st-level spellcaster can make is a 1st level scroll, which costs 25 GP. Which, since you can only make one item per day, means he makes 12.5 GP per day (after 2 hours of work).
Still, that's pretty freaking lucrative in the grand scheme of things. If you took Skill Focus (craft) instead of Scribe Scroll (moot point for wizards because they get scribe scroll for free), you'd be making 25 gp per week, not per day (this is assuming a gnome with an 18 INT and an alchemists lab).
12.5 GP per day is 4,562.5 gp per year.
You can live very comfortably in a major city for that 62.5 gp per year (particularly if you're only working 2 hours a day).
A human can be a 1st level wizard at 17, then start adventuring when he's 30.
See where I'm going with this?
I can easily double or triple that by increasing the caster level of my scrolls, in which case I can either cheese-out my spellcraft roll (not hard to get +12 at level 1) or just accept the occasional loss. However, if I really want to rack up the dough, I'm going to adventure until I'm 5th level then go into temporary retirement crafting wands.
A wand containing a 3rd level spell costs 11,250 GP. By rushing the creation (which does require me to take skill focus, buy an INT-boosting item, or just take an apprentice) I can crank that out in 6 days and earn 5,675 gp profit. That's approximately 345,230 GP per year. Hell, I don't even need to be an elf (which was going to be phase 3 of this demonstration).
Three years of that and I can equip myself like a 20th level character, then start adventuring for real.
Except that, you know, I actually can't, because all the other 5th level wizards doing the same thing will flood the market with wands and drive my profit margins back down into the double digits. And then once I do break open my piggybank and go to buy a staff of power I'll find that I can't because no one is making them.
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I think I will outlaw cohorts/followers with item creation feats...nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem...Can I ask why?
The same amount of money has to be spent either way.
The same amount of time has to be spent either way - with the possible exception of creating while adventuring.This no longer risks "avoiding the XP cost."
So why would it be a problem if the cohorts/followers have item creation feats?
Due to the fact that you give your cohort 500gp to stay in town and craft while you're away. He makes the first items, sells them for 1000gp, makes more, sells those for 2000gp, now he make more, 4000gp, makes more, 8000gp...
even with failures, you'd make a bundle from your cohort while you're away...no cash factory for my players...
imagine if they all wanted all adept followers just to craft cure light wound scrolls...the cohort makes cure potions...
Three years of that and I can equip myself like a 20th level character, then start adventuring for real.
Not by the RAW.
Even character created items, including magic items, are sold at 50% of market. Meaning you only break even (at best) for those three years.
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
Emphasis is mine.
even with failures, you'd make a bundle from your cohort while you're away...no cash factory for my players...
See above.
Upon rereading, I see a few typos and things that I failed to remove. These same rules applied to creating new spells and I see I missed removing some straggler info. I'll clean it up shortly.
I cleaned it up some. Note that the DC's might need looking at considering it was originally written for 3.5 skills system.
You really have to reach to make a cursed item, though, since that requires you to fail by 5 or more. What's more, there's really no incentive to reach like that for the average item crafter, since they're making 500-1,000 GP per day no matter what they're trying to craft. Indeed, making weaker items is preferable, not only because you can rush it with no chance of failure but also because you don't need such a large initial investment and can get a steadier return.
The rules as written do not allow a player to make any money crafting magic items. (I guess that would require taking a level of "Merchant" to gain the class feature of profit. LOL)
In the equipment section on selling items it specifically comments that even player made magic items will only sell for 50% of the listed value. Now if you choose to allow them to sell it for more as part of RP that is fine. But the intent of the feats is not to allow the players to print their own gold over time but to allow them to make stuff for them to use.
EDIT - Looks like Disenchanter beat me to it.
Question:
Do you apply the community size g.p. limit (now base value on table 15-1)for purchassing magic item creation components?
Or I am just mean?
Three years of that and I can equip myself like a 20th level character, then start adventuring for real.Not by the RAW.
Even character created items, including magic items, are sold at 50% of market. Meaning you only break even (at best) for those three years
You're right, and I should have remembered that since there was a thread about it last night (the way that the rules for selling things at market cost simply aren't available to players).
While a lesser issue, there is still no reason why any character shouldn't begin play with tens of thousands of GP worth of scrolls, wands and potions. If it's impossible to sell these items at a profit, then they're going to just keep them.
Why the snark ?
Because I'm an enormous prick who doesn't take delight in answering questions when he feels the answers are evident. Sorry.
The most expensive item a 1st-level spellcaster can make is a 1st level scroll, which costs 25 GP. Which, since you can only make one item per day, means he makes 12.5 GP per day (after 2 hours of work).
I am failing to see where it says that you can work less than 8 hours a day on a magic item (with the exception of potions costing less than 250 gp), the wording is "with a minimum of at least 8 hours". According to the rules on page 549.
Thought they do say that if you adventuring, you can work for 4 hours a day and only get 2 hours worth of work done, so it would take you 4 days to scribe that scroll, and take 4 hours each day.
12.5 GP per day is 4,562.5 gp per year.
I do not know of anyone who can work 365 days a year. Granted, that if you worked 260 days a year (no vacation, only weekends off), you would have the potential of making 3250 gp.
You can live very comfortably in a major city for that 62.5 gp per year.
Could you please explain the 62.5 gp per year? common food for a day (at an inn) is 3 sp, which translates to 109.5 gp.
A Studio in the worst part of Old Korvosa (slum like area) is 4 sp per month, which translates to 4.8 gp, but not what I would call comfortable. To me, living comfortably would be at least 2 gp per month (low end of the middle class area), which translates to 24 gp.
So, for me, to live comfortably, it would cost you 133.5 gp a year, and this is with no recreation (like booze).
A wand containing a 3rd level spell costs 11,250 GP. By rushing the creation (which does require me to take skill focus, buy an INT-boosting item, or just take an apprentice) I can crank that out in 6 days and earn 5,675 gp profit. That's approximately 345,230 GP per year. Hell, I don't even need to be an elf (which was going to be phase 3 of this demonstration).
Where are you getting the rules for rushed creation? I cannot seem to locate them in Core.
Three years of that and I can equip myself like a 20th level character, then start adventuring for real.
Who would be buying all these scrolls anyways? Other mages who can also scribe scrolls for 1/2 the price that your mage is asking for?
You are assuming that you can actually sell everything that you make and that you can acquire the supplies to make the scrolls. Which are big assumptions.
What would your mage do if no one was buying the scrolls for a few months? Or if the supplies needed to scribe the scrolls were no available (or only at a higher cost?)? I am thinking of winter here, which usually slows things down a bit for all.
Three years of that and I can equip myself like a 20th level character, then start adventuring for real.Not by the RAW.
Even character created items, including magic items, are sold at 50% of market. Meaning you only break even (at best) for those three years
You're right, and I should have remembered that since there was a thread about it last night (the way that the rules for selling things at market cost simply aren't available to players).
While a lesser issue, there is still no reason why any character shouldn't begin play with tens of thousands of GP worth of scrolls, wands and potions. If it's impossible to sell these items at a profit, then they're going to just keep them.
So where do they get the "tens of thousands of GP" to start actually making those scrolls? Not to mention that making a wand requires the feat which you can't have at first level, same with potions.
Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Working 365 days a year is pretty easy if you're only working 2 hours a day.
"Living comfortably" in that sense meant renting a lower-class home (but not sharing it with anyone) and mostly preparing your own food, but still having enough to supply yourself with luxories like booze or tobacco and to eat out at the pub once a week.
Eating out for every meal gets expensive pretty quick no matter what era you're living in (though, of course, "expensive" for adventurers still isn't very expensive).
Why the snark ?Because I'm an enormous prick who doesn't take delight in answering questions when he feels the answers are evident. Sorry.
Then don't. No need to get out of your way to crap on others. Stop the griefing.
Are we still certain the DC isn't 10+CL? There is a discrepency between the text under the Feats section and the Magic Items section.
I didn't notice that. Maybe Paizo people can help us out with this one. This DC value makes a bit more sense to me.
Then don't. No need to get out of your way to crap on others. Stop the griefing.Why the snark ?Because I'm an enormous prick who doesn't take delight in answering questions when he feels the answers are evident. Sorry.
No kidding. Who forced him to post? Thiago did you hold his hands on the keyboard and make him type? You have to watch that stuff you know. It makes some people cranky lol
The only PC that should make any money making and selling magic items (to non-PCs) are the ones with the trait that knocks 5% off the cost - at most 50 gp per day. That's without some really good in game reason (like the PCs start a war and sell arms to both sides or something).
*Most* item crafting will not fail, but the system has been loosened to allow dangerous crafting to be done, with a chance for cursed effects if you're really reaching for it.
Pretty simple.
So where do they get the "tens of thousands of GP" to start actually making those scrolls? Not to mention that making a wand requires the feat which you can't have at first level, same with potions.
Well, if the game is starting at 1st level they're only going to have scrolls, and if its starting at 3rd level they're only going to have scrolls and potions.
But you're right, with absolutely no way to sell at a profit (with in the rules) they can't do more than double their money.
Now that my mistake has been pointed out I'm thinking that the system is still a little silly, but in the opposite sense: namely, if you can make magic items to order, you should be able to sell that for something.
Or, to turn things around, making magic items is so easy that there should be potionbrewers and scrollwriters desperate to unload their wares at any sort of profit (since apparently, magic vendors will not buy their stuff for more than the cost of creation), and PCs should be able to tap into that to buy simple magic items at hefty discounts.
Rules and mechanics aside the Economics of a Magic-Based World have been debated for many years, thru many systems. You need access to the components to make items. Simplicity makes this GP based. Behind this, 'reality' means these are rare items; pieces of magical creatures, blood, rare plants, etc. Limited. Dangerous to acquire, and dangerous to handle. The more powerful, the more dangerous and rare.
Any GM worth their salt should remember that RPG isn't about running a store for profit. Even one out of your backpack.
As one person said, we're not playing Merchants and Marketplaces.
Any GM worth their salt should remember that RPG isn't about running a store for profit. Even one out of your backpack.
Any GM worth their salt should remember that RPG is about making your players feel like they're part of a fantasy world.
If one of my players decided to open a magic item shop in Ptolus, he wouldn't be the first. And if I decided to hack together a system to determine how much trouble he goes to and how much money he makes, that certainly wouldn't be a first either.
I understand the desire to leave that sort of thing up to DMs to adjucate, rather than building in a means for PCs to earn inappropriate wealth for their level, but the 50% between "creation cost" and "market cost" is... a LOT of money. I would have appreciated some cannon explanation for where that money goes and why PCs can't get a piece of it.
No kidding. Who forced him to post? Thiago did you hold his hands on the keyboard and make him type? You have to watch that stuff you know. It makes some people cranky lol
Scrying/Dominate person did the trick :)