(2) Creating magic items on the hoof is possible if you allow spellcasters to regain spells on the hoof: "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items" (Magic Item Creation chapter). If you're forcing your players to roll, rather than taking 10, you're ignoring this part of the rules. That's your prerogative, but it's not RAW.
Congratulations, you've succeeded in making magical items MORE difficult. Why? Because, by that logic, if you can't take 10, you can't make magic items at all. Spell preparation is pretty demanding - comfort, quiet, free of distractions.
Preparing spells takes an hour, tops. Everyone in a party is going to know to STFU and let the wizard study his spellbook. If you're making an item in every free second of the day (adventuring), you're not going to get that courtesy. If you could only make magic items during such periods, it'd basically be impossible.
Look at the requirements for preparing spells again. Free of distractions, no inclement weather, sufficient lighting. If you're at camp, you _might_ get these conditions outside your tent. Camps are full of people (and animals) and they do all sorts of distracting things. I'd expect most wizards to tell people to be quiet for a while, go into their tent, throw up a Light spell and study in relative peace and quiet for 15min to an hour, while everybody tries to not make a lot of noise. That's reasonably possible. But 4 solid hours of this? Not reasonable.
Players want to do all sorts of unreasonable things. For example, a wizard will want to sleep while wearing an 'ornate golden headpiece' so he can keep his +24hr bonuses from his Headband of Intellect. The fighter will want to wear his belt 24/7 as well (ever hear of baths? Changing clothes? Hello?). This is IMO stupid and unrealistic - and for the record, I'd let people sleep/bathe WITHOUT losing these bonuses, as long as they didn't try item-swapping shenanigans.
How I'd handle it: If you wear an item for 8 hours, you've attuned it and get the 'full' bonuses. That item remains attuned to your body slot until someone else uses the item OR you put a different item into that body slot. So you can take it off and put it back on without losing all your bonuses. That's IMO reasonable.
For making items, you want to do it on the road, rather than in ideal conditions? Fine, don't take 10. You can't get ideal conditions on the road for 4 hours a day, that's why you're making 1/2 progress to begin with. That's IMO generous, because RAW, as you state, you need 4 hours a day of spell prep conditions - which is nearly impossible while adventuring (aside from Dominating the party, using Magnificent Mansion or Secure Shelter, etcetera - creative solutions).
(2) Creating magic items on the hoof is possible if you allow spellcasters to regain spells on the hoof: "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items" (Magic Item Creation chapter). If you're forcing your players to roll, rather than taking 10, you're ignoring this part of the rules. That's your prerogative, but it's not RAW.Congratulations, you've succeeded in making magical items MORE difficult. Why? Because, by that logic, if you can't take 10, you can't make magic items at all. Spell preparation is pretty demanding - comfort, quiet, free of distractions.
Preparing spells takes an hour, tops. Everyone in a party is going to know to STFU and let the wizard study his spellbook. If you're making an item in every free second of the day (adventuring), you're not going to get that courtesy. If you could only make magic items during such periods, it'd basically be impossible.
Look at the requirements for preparing spells again. Free of distractions, no inclement weather, sufficient lighting. If you're at camp, you _might_ get these conditions outside your tent. Camps are full of people (and animals) and they do all sorts of distracting things. I'd expect most wizards to tell people to be quiet for a while, go into their tent, throw up a Light spell and study in relative peace and quiet for 15min to an hour, while everybody tries to not make a lot of noise. That's reasonably possible. But 4 solid hours of this? Not reasonable.
I think you may be being to harsh about the distractions bit. What you seem to be saying is that magic item crafting can't work on the road, because the other characters won't let the wizard have sufficient time to himself. As a DM I wouldn't be adjudicating it that strictly. Maybe the Wizard walks 100 or more feet away to do his work. If he is making potentially game changing scrolls, the rest of the party might give him some more deference. I am all for RPing the minutia of adventuring life, but this seems like throwing up a road block just to just for the sake of having one.
ED: And as for magic economies this is also food for the brain :D
I think you may be being to harsh about the distractions bit.
Possibly. I do think study requires quiet, roughly equal to that which you would want during an algebra test. Bending the forces of the universe to you will is a lot like algebra. ^_^
What you seem to be saying is that magic item crafting can't work on the road, because the other characters won't let the wizard have sufficient time to himself.
Not exactly, I'm just pointing out the logical (to me) conclusion of someone else's rules quotation. I think it is possible to make magic items on the road, BUT it takes extraordinary measures to be able to take 10 while doing it (Magnificent Mansion spells et.al.).
As a DM I wouldn't be adjudicating it that strictly. Maybe the Wizard walks 100 or more feet away to do his work.
That would work too, though it puts him at greater risk.
If he is making potentially game changing scrolls, the rest of the party might give him some more deference. I am all for RPing the minutia of adventuring life,...
It's more about being reasonable about what you can actually get away with. Making magic items during your lunch breaks stretches it a bit for me, I'll admit, but the rules allow for it. Taking 10 while doing so? That's stretching it a bit thin. And I let people take 10 most of the time.
I feel the need to point out that taking 10 is not the same as taking twenty. Taking ten is doing something as averagely as possible. Taking twenty requires time and concentration.
Taking twenty is crunching for a hard exam. Taking ten is lightly reviewing your notes.
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I feel the need to point out that taking 10 is not the same as taking twenty. Taking ten is doing something as averagely as possible. Taking twenty requires time and concentration.
Taking twenty is crunching for a hard exam. Taking ten is lightly reviewing your notes.
Umm not quite...taking 10 is taking your time to go over your notes and taking a test...taking 20 is taking the test over and over again til you get 100%.
Umm not quite...taking 10 is taking your time to go over your notes and taking a test...taking 20 is taking the test over and over again til you get 100%.I feel the need to point out that taking 10 is not the same as taking twenty. Taking ten is doing something as averagely as possible. Taking twenty requires time and concentration.
Taking twenty is crunching for a hard exam. Taking ten is lightly reviewing your notes.
+1. And if you're in a room full of noisy people while taking the test, you can't take 10.
Umm not quite...taking 10 is taking your time to go over your notes and taking a test...taking 20 is taking the test over and over again til you get 100%.I feel the need to point out that taking 10 is not the same as taking twenty. Taking ten is doing something as averagely as possible. Taking twenty requires time and concentration.
Taking twenty is crunching for a hard exam. Taking ten is lightly reviewing your notes.
Not a good analogy IMHO. What taking 10 does, mechanically speaking, is remove the risk of a roll. You can fail a test, no matter how you study. You cannot fail a take 10 roll. You can only not qualify for it. Its a mechanical "sure thing", and used often to reduce unnecessary rolling.
ED: why not allow a sliding scale of difficulty here. If you have a +8 mod on the roll for distractions, you push the Taking 10 for crafting of anything but consumable magic off the table. So Joe WIzard can still take 10 to scribe scrolls in the morning without needing to check into a hilton, but more permanent stuff is riskier.
Not a good analogy IMHO. What taking 10 does, mechanically speaking, is remove the risk of a roll. You can fail a test, no matter how you study. You cannot fail a take 10 roll.
Sure you can. If the DC is bigger than 10+bonuses, you fail. Take 10 doesn't equal auto-success with everything, just things that are well within the scope of you abilities. You often don't know the DC of a skill check - that has nothing to do with not qualifying to take 10.
ED: why not allow a sliding scale of difficulty here.
I'm all for house rules that make sense :-). I just think that enchanting objects is a BigDeal(tm), not something that should be casually done over tea and crumpets.
Besides which, making items in camp is sort of last-ditch screwed anyways. You get 2 hours of progress a day, and you do run the risk of serious interruptions, combat, injury and whatnot - screwing your progess for the day at the very least. I'm sure some campaigns are geared for ZERO downtime, but geez - then you wouldn't have time to gather the expensive ingredients for your Boomstick in the first place. This goes for scrolls and potions too - does anyone just carry the right stuff needed to make these (generic ingredients) on the fly, or do people require dedicated to specific enchantment stuff? Dragonskin scrolls for Form of the Dragon I, Squid ink for Black Tentacles?
My point stands >:|
You cannot take ten under stressful or life threatening situations. Having breakfast or keeping watch is neither.
And for the record, studying in a noisy or loud or distracting hall and still getting a good grade on the test is far from difficult. That's more or less what all of college is ;p
My point stands >:|
You cannot take ten under stressful or life threatening situations. Having breakfast or keeping watch is neither.
Distracting, NOT stressful. Never once have I said stressful. If you are keeping watch AND making a magic item, by definition your attention is divided - you are DISTRACTED. That'd be +5 DC on your Perception check too, BTW.
He did have to spend experience points, which helped balance it out. Now we don't.And cue the enormous red herrings...
Please read carefully, because I don't want to have to repost this again. Experience costs were removed for a reason - because experience calculation changed. In 3.5 if you spent experience and fell behind in experience you would eventually catchup because lower level characters gain more experience from challenges than do higher level characters. That is no longer the case, meaning that should you spend experience for whatever reason you are effectively permanently committing yourself to be that amount of experience behind the rest of the party. You would turn item crafting and limited wish/greater restoration casting into a noose around spellcasters necks that they tightened with each potion or spell.
Magic item crafting is already balanced by two factors - first, the cost of a feat, and second the time required to craft the magic items. Often you will not be able to craft at will due to campaign constraints.
I know, I know, one feat isn't worth double your wealth. If that is how you are arbitrating magic item crafting than you have larger problems in your game. PCs are expected to have a specific amount of wealth at each level. If they are crafting items at half cost then you should reduce treasure awards to compensate to keep them in line. Effectively what the crafting feats let you do is choose your wealth, given the time, rather than have it randomly drawn for you.
Given that is the only bonus, and given that you are already spending feats, I do not see the need to further complicate matters by making the DC to craft items overly difficult. Instead let cursed items be the result of incompetent spellcasters attempting crafting.
Your argument here is warped and ill/logical.
First, you say not spending xp is fine, the feat is balanced. Then, you turn right around and penalize whoever takes it by effectively neutralizing it by reducing the amount of treasure that the party has.
As SKR noted long ago, the wizard who has this feat should have MORE gear then a wizard of the same level who does NOT have this feat. You are effectively saying the exact opposite.
The feat is taken so that you can make what item you want, when you want it. This is a RP benefit. In reality, you can do so whenever you enter a big city and wait a bit.
The true benefit is the saving of gold cost, and the leveraging of that into better gear.
The COST of this was permanent XP loss...in other words, you lagged behind in levels. this wasn't an issue in 3.5, becuase lower level characters got 'free xp' to make up for this. In effect, this was exactly like the 'free xp' that the Artificer class gets to make magic items.
Lower level character with higher level gear effectively neutralizes out.
If the rest of the party wants you to make magic items and burn xp for them, have them invest in the feat that lets them donate xp for item making, get DM permission, or use a spell to do the same (all exist in 3.5).
XP loss was entirely balanced and believable for making magic items. It put limits on how much the party would be willing to make.
As for tracking levels, the party's 'level' should be the amount of xp awarded them. If they've burned some for magic items, they now have better gear and that shouldn't change. Level 9 characters with level 11 gear custom-made can easily perform at level 10.
And the note above about the Ring of Protection +5 is SPOT ON. The reason is because this method of getting AC is exactly what casters use to get high AC levels...they cast spells which provide non-standard bonuses. I personally use the example of a DISMAL Ring of Warding (+1 each Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale And Luck bonuses), with a total cost of about 20k, vs 50k for the Ring of Prot+5. Same thing for DISMAL Cloak for saves. That frees up 30k of gold, which you can then use for enhancing the bonuses to +2, in increments.
Also, slots are not a problem. You can make an item slotless, or simply stack the benefits on an affiliated slot.
==Aelryinth