The book is filled with so much stuff that it is really heavy.
They kept DR
The Fly skill. Favored classes. The book is flimsy and does not cover nearly enough to get a decent campaign going.
1st) I was so happy when I saw 4th Edition come out. Finally my bank account would have time to heal after so much damage done to it during 3rd Edition. I was looking forward to not wanting to buy any RPG material for years on end.
To Hades with you, Paizo! Now there are more products that are so cool that I must spend money to get them! *weep*
2nd) I wish the Oracle was already in the core material. As a Dragonlance player/DM I wanted a spontaneous divine caster to use for the Mystics. But now I gotta wait. *sigh*
Yes, I'm impatient. :)
Well I'm not one who dislikes pathfinder, quite the contrary.
And there really aren't any parts in the book that I do not like, but rather wish more thought or perhaps time were put into certain aspects of the rules.
From a GM standpoint, I've read quite thoroughly Chapter 13 on environments over the last few evenings, and overall I find the chapter quite confusing. That is not to say that the 3.5 DMG content wasn't any better, but I really don't see an improvement.
I bring it up because this particular chapter has the potential to really liven up encounters, in addition to monsters. There is a lot o good stuff in the chapter, but it is difficult to navigate through it for quick reference during play.
I think I would have rather liked all the charts in the chapter clustered together in the chapter, or maybe added in the appendices. I also feel that a lot of the rules "hidden" within the text could have been better referenced as tables as well: for instance, under Sleet it says that it has the same effect as Rain while falling and Snow once on the ground. Rain, in turn, says that it has the same effect as Severe Wind for perception checks. It would be nice to have a chart that references all of these to make flvoring encounters with these dynamics relatively simple.
I may attempt to make my own charts. In defense of the Jason, though, it does seem that it is a hard chapter to write.
I'm not crazy about death spells doing damage. I know people don't like dying because of one failed save and that is understandable. I was thinking of housing death spells to do continual damage until the save is made. Slay Living used to kill you. Now it does 12d6+1/CL. Not bad when you can start casting it at 9th level but ends up getting weaker as you level up. Flame Strike is about as good at 9th level and way better at higher levels. Plus, straight damage eliminates the flavor. Makes it feel like another type of energy damage. Death spells will be scary again if you know another 12d6 is coming if you don't save next time. It would also allow your friends to try to help save you if they know what is happening. "Hey, thanks for that Death Ward. I really needed that."
I'm not crazy about death spells doing damage. I know people don't like dying because of one failed save and that is understandable. I was thinking of housing death spells to do continual damage until the save is made. Slay Living used to kill you. Now it does 12d6+1/CL. Not bad when you can start casting it at 9th level but ends up getting weaker as you level up. Flame Strike is about as good at 9th level and way better at higher levels. Plus, straight damage eliminates the flavor. Makes it feel like another type of energy damage. Death spells will be scary again if you know another 12d6 is coming if you don't save next time. It would also allow your friends to try to help save you if they know what is happening. "Hey, thanks for that Death Ward. I really needed that."
Got to agree on this one. The neutering of "save or die" spells is my only real complaint. And it wasn't just the "save or die" spells, there seems to be quite a few other changes to the magic system.
So far the only other minor complaint I have is that I still think the Humans took a hit they didn't really need, but the details and arguments for that are for another thread :)
I'd mind the Save-or-die changes less if they didn't add their own (including alot of save-or-suck, or suck-or-suck ones).
The book is flimsy and does not cover nearly enough to get a decent campaign going.You wanted that monster to be bigger?!?
Given their other comments, I'm wondering if Snotlord is still talking about the soft-bound beta book. "Flimsy" is certainly the last thing one could complain about regarding the hardbound final rules - that sucker is built like a brick-sh**house!
As for things I don't like, I'm disappointed that the multiclassing rules didn't detail like stacking so we could finally lay the 1st-level +0 BAB and +2 save stuff to rest. Considering that this was partially addressed with regard to prestige classes, it seems a shame that there will still be disagreements over something that even WotC tried to amend [in Unearthed Arcana].
Beyond that, there's a few changes I'd still like to see to the Bard - namely reworking Versatile Performance so that investments in social skills aren't wasted, and adding an alternate/targeted break enchantment effect to the Soothing Performance ability.
Still, I'm happy to say that the number of things that I LOVE about Pathfinder FAR outweigh these relatively minor concerns. :)
It's a good game. However, it left many of 3.5's dilemmas unsolved. Also, its major selling point for me would have been its compatibility with 3.5, but the power balance was so significantly altered, particularly at low levels, that 3.5 material still requires some modification to be viable in Pathfinder. Shame.
Oh yeah, and I think the name's kinda goofy.
Just thought of another, though it is a missing option instead of a true dislike...
I really wish some sort of rules had been included for multiclassing at 1st level like in 3.0. That was one of the things I never understood when they dropped it from 3.5. Being able to start at 1st level as a true wizard/fighter instead of having to come up with some silly idea that "yeah, I've been trained in combat and magic... I just don't use magic yet" (or "I just can't swing a longsword correctly yet") was really nice, and never overpowered in my opinion.
I argued against changing the 3.5 DR system at all. I hated the idea of enough plusses overcoming things like DR/evil or DR/adamantite. As the basis for my counter-argument I pointed out that Greater Magic Weapon would guarantee bypassing DR at certain levels.
So Greater Magic Weapon doesn't bypass DR. But it's the basis for creating magic weapons with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. That balances the spell but kind of creates a question of logic about why it can bypass DR when its used to enchant weapons permanently.
I hate that. But it's a small thing.
I argued against changing the 3.5 DR system at all. I hated the idea of enough plusses overcoming things like DR/evil or DR/adamantite. As the basis for my counter-argument I pointed out that Greater Magic Weapon would guarantee bypassing DR at certain levels.
So Greater Magic Weapon doesn't bypass DR. But it's the basis for creating magic weapons with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. That balances the spell but kind of creates a question of logic about why it can bypass DR when its used to enchant weapons permanently.
I hate that. But it's a small thing.
Skipping the obvious (Just read the cleric thread), I don't think it really brought much more balance to the game over all. It just shifted it around a bit. It also left some of the worst things about 3.5 unfixed.
I understand the arguement that sometimes these things were left unfixed for compatibility reasons but other times, they ignored compatibility and changed things so I don't fully buy into that arguement.
Illogical seems to have crept into too many places. Many times for "balance" or "compatibility" reasons but well it doesn't make it any more logical. Monks not getting full BAB is illogical, channel energy healing your party but not harming undead that are in the AoE isn't how healing magic works, not logically. Your point about GMW...same thing, just not logical.
The half-orc change, don't like it.
DC change stinks.
The way death spells work...nope not a fan.
The barbarian class...I don't see as being as good as the 3.5 version.
The bard to me feels worse.
Skill points for some classes are still too low, 2 is hardly ever enough and frankly a few more does not unbalance the game but adds more non-combat activities and even RP situations.
I know that seems a lot of issues, but it really isn't anything big. Over all I recommend the game to one and all, its a fine game but could have been better with just a few more tweeks, or less in some places. The cleric armor thing still sticks in my teeth because I feel strongly it was done for the wrong reasons.
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Tumbling is backwards (I'm definitely one who hated the autp succeed of the old tumble though, but the CMB v. CMD of the opponent is backwards...since dodge/deflection bonuses of the "Defender" add to their chance to get an AoO...)
2+int skill points. (lots of skills will not break the game, but lack of skills can break a story...this is DEFEINTELY changed in my game...and backwards compatibility for this specific change is a lame defense...)
Humans changes in final versus Beta, had they just removed the free weapon choice, that would have been acceptable...
In general I love the changes, there are just some minor gripes...(some of these could have been playtested beta end of beta and print..but they didn't let us playtest the final version...and I'm not sure some of these changes are exactly balanced...only time will tell...)
The book is flimsy and does not cover nearly enough to get a decent campaign going.You wanted that monster to be bigger?!?Given their other comments, I'm wondering if Snotlord is still talking about the soft-bound beta book.
No, just trying to be clever. I failed, as usual ;D
I picked by my book at the post office two days ago, and was amazed by the weight.My other comments are serious enough (The Fly skill. Favored classes.), but not important in the greater scheme of things.
I fear Jason & crew did not do enough to fix the high level game, but this is only a feeling at this point, but it will take time and lots of playing to identify it.
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The book is flimsy and does not cover nearly enough to get a decent campaign going.You wanted that monster to be bigger?!?Given their other comments, I'm wondering if Snotlord is still talking about the soft-bound beta book.
No, just trying to be clever. I failed, as usual ;D
It must be your Poor Saving Throw stat ^_^
I'm not a huge fan of the Favored Classes thing, and my players aren't too big on the Half-Orc stat changes (It's weird, because I actually LIKE them now).
The change to Combat Expertise bothered me, as did the fact that they removed the extra bonus to Dodge once you get 10 ranks in Acrobatics. On that note, I miss the Fighter's bonus AC from Armor Training as well.
I still have some problems with the system as a whole, but this isn't a fault of Pathfinder's, it's a fault of 3.5 and 3.0, and Pathfinder is still a great system in and of itself.
On that note, I miss the Fighter's bonus AC from Armor Training as well.
I'm actually glad that they removed the AC bonus. Their AC can already get rediculously high without it.
The neutering of certain spells, power attack and combat maneuvers feats.
The new combat maneuver mechanics, and rounds for rage/bard music.
On that note, I miss the Fighter's bonus AC from Armor Training as well.I'm actually glad that they removed the AC bonus. Their AC can already get rediculously high without it.
Yeah, I know why they did it, I just miss it.
Slay Living being better than Raise Dead right there in the RAW.
Raise Dead can raise people except those slain by a death effect. Slay Living is a death effect. Slay Living always trumps Raise Dead.
I especially dislike this because Slay Living now become the evil cleric's capstone spell. After everyone has softened someone up with Fireballs and whatnot, the cleric comes and zaps Slay Living as the last spell so they can't be easily raised with a spell of the same level.
Admittedly, I also dislike this because it's the opposite of an old house rule of mine from one of my 1st ed campaigns. I had it that Death, the spirit, was not terribly fond of necromancers but didn't like to give up souls that died of natural causes or causes such as knives in the back, fireballs, etc. However, those that died before their time (ie. those killed by death effects) messed up his paperwork, so he had no objections to those souls being returned via life effects.
Of course, you can always house rule everything, but I dislike that the evil spell is quantifiably better than the good version.
Most of the changes to spells, the fact that humans don't get Multitalented, most of the changes to spells, the lower 1st level saving throws for prestige classes, the power attack feat (I still say there was absolutely no reason to change it *shrug*), just about all the changes to the spells particularly the remove curse/poison/disease spells and polymorph, making turning undead a feat rather than simply letting it be an option.
1) The removal of Concentration, and the continued existence of Spellcraft.
2) The entirely unneeded removal of reach from the spiked chain.
3) That the XPH's open content isn't also included (though that's honestly more facetious than serious).
4) The Half-Orc's new racial modifiers.
5) The complete lack of flavor in the final favored class rules.
6) The lack of the HP kicker options presented in the Beta. Personally, I was in favor of getting your CON score as HP, rather than CON mod, at first level. I understand the racial HP was the most popular, but I felt it unnecessarily penalized races that already have CON penalties and was a big boost to races that already had CON bonuses, so I don't mind the absence of that one, but still...
7) Clerics' now lack heavy armor, for the first time in the history of D&D. I'm not a huge hater for this, but at the same time, it just feels off.
8) Fighters get a little less with the old armor training.
There may be another few issues, but I haven't actually had a chance to read the full rules from my PDF (I don't really love reading PDFs).
snip
Add most of this list, and tumble.
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lol It kills me that anyone thought there was a need for a thread like this. The forums have been a deluge of mewling and grousing about what's broken or "nerfed" in PFRPG for over a week now.
True bit sometimes a person dislike may not fit into any of the existing threads started. I wanted to create a thread for both and make them as general as possible.
The complete lack of rules for folding space.
Edit: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about -=DUNE=- .
My main complaint is the CMD.
See, I've been running Rise of the Runelords with the beta rules, and haven't had to do any real conversion work. I just take the 3.5 numbers and run with them, as is.
But now the CMD is gonna mean I have to go in and do the math for everything!
That's just annoying.
I'm not crazy about death spells doing damage. I know people don't like dying because of one failed save and that is understandable. I was thinking of housing death spells to do continual damage until the save is made. Slay Living used to kill you. Now it does 12d6+1/CL. Not bad when you can start casting it at 9th level but ends up getting weaker as you level up. Flame Strike is about as good at 9th level and way better at higher levels. Plus, straight damage eliminates the flavor. Makes it feel like another type of energy damage. Death spells will be scary again if you know another 12d6 is coming if you don't save next time. It would also allow your friends to try to help save you if they know what is happening. "Hey, thanks for that Death Ward. I really needed that."
That's a great idea. Stolen!
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I miss the at-wills for the 1st level spellcasters. I know, the powers are still pretty awesome and frequent, but that's one change I regret greatly.
Spellcraft not stacking with Concentration checks anymore. I'm houseruling that one ASAP.
The races art was better in the Beta than in the finished product, in my opinion.
Note that these are MINOR things. Frankly, this is still the best ruleset I've ever used for a fantasy RPG, and I'll support it tooth and nail... but I still look at those things and go "Ah, what might have been..."
Has anyone had issues with the quality of the book, I have several pages that were not cut right and stick out further with white boarder.
Of couse I cant return it cause its sold out.What to do? Other than that it does look awesome and I love some of the changes.
I'm not crazy about death spells doing damage. I know people don't like dying because of one failed save and that is understandable. I was thinking of housing death spells to do continual damage until the save is made. Slay Living used to kill you. Now it does 12d6+1/CL. Not bad when you can start casting it at 9th level but ends up getting weaker as you level up. Flame Strike is about as good at 9th level and way better at higher levels. Plus, straight damage eliminates the flavor. Makes it feel like another type of energy damage. Death spells will be scary again if you know another 12d6 is coming if you don't save next time. It would also allow your friends to try to help save you if they know what is happening. "Hey, thanks for that Death Ward. I really needed that."
I'm in favor of ruling that they reduce you to negative hit points equal to the spell's level (so finger of death drops you to -7). Still death if unassisted, but not so lethal for pcs.
Only one real complaint. It dropped the package it was sent in on my foot and it broke my toe. I'm not kidding. I hate pdf copies of things, but this book is just down right toe unfriendly.
So, your Pathfinder Book has brought you the "Agony of De-feet"?
Let Cosmo and Alison know! They might hook you up with a new one.Only one real complaint. It dropped the package it was sent in on my foot and it broke my toe. I'm not kidding. I hate pdf copies of things, but this book is just down right toe unfriendly.
S.
A new toe?
Would they send it by Missile?
All of these complaints sound crazy to me. The things that are mentioned, the things that were changed, were the things that explicitly made it difficult to run in, and play any but a few classes in third edition.
I'm getting the impression that each of you were running one of these spotlight stealing, broken type characters. I hope you enjoy playing them in your own home campaigns. In my personal experiences, <sarcasm> it's always *so* fun when one player goes out of his way to make things miserable for the other five people at the table </sarcasm>
I don't understand any of it.
Why should anyone with class level ranks in tumble just be able to trivially avoid AOO's?
Why should it be trivial for casters to take damage and still cast their spells?
Why should fighter AC be so high, you can't put something that can hit the fighter against the rest of the party without killing them all?
Why should a mage get steal *all* of the spotlight time in the group by getting to be any monster he wants?
Why should a weapon allow you to control 30+ squares on the battlefield, doing AOO in addition to normal attacks at will?
None of these complaints make any sense to me. I've heard all the arguments, no need to repeat them. All I end up seeing when I read it is "I don't know how to play well with other people"
Seriously.
I am in awe of the galactic mind-blowing perspective it must take to seriously complain that a 200 pound barbarian only has a 20% chance to bull rush a 12,000 pound Storm Giant.
Or that a rogue might experience some difficulty tumbling through an 20 square foot area filled with a sentient roaring inferno of pure elemental fire.
whatever.
I'm in favor of ruling that they reduce you to negative hit points equal to the spell's level (so finger of death drops you to -7). Still death if unassisted, but not so lethal for pcs.I'm not crazy about death spells doing damage. I know people don't like dying because of one failed save and that is understandable. I was thinking of housing death spells to do continual damage until the save is made. Slay Living used to kill you. Now it does 12d6+1/CL. Not bad when you can start casting it at 9th level but ends up getting weaker as you level up. Flame Strike is about as good at 9th level and way better at higher levels. Plus, straight damage eliminates the flavor. Makes it feel like another type of energy damage. Death spells will be scary again if you know another 12d6 is coming if you don't save next time. It would also allow your friends to try to help save you if they know what is happening. "Hey, thanks for that Death Ward. I really needed that."
I still prefer the old "dead, but perfect corpse for raising" version.
Having it do actual HP really does make it seem like another damage type.
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Has anyone had issues with the quality of the book, I have several pages that were not cut right and stick out further with white boarder.
Of couse I cant return it cause its sold out.What to do? Other than that it does look awesome and I love some of the changes.
Email customer service. They might have some copies to do exchanges with. There were very few copies that had some printing issues, so they might be able to help you out. At the very least, they could get you set up when the second printing rolls out.
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I am in awe of the galactic mind-blowing perspective it must take to seriously complain that a 200 pound barbarian only has a 20% chance to bull rush a 12,000 pound Storm Giant.
See again, my argument of Kratos vs Collosus of Rhodes, God of War 2. THAT is what I want my high-level games to be like.
Also, this in the internet. A gaming message board. Do you really expect gamers to not complain when given a forum? These are people airing their opinions. So thanks for your opinion that we can't play well with others. We're going back to our whining.
I didnt realise until I got my copy, but I miss the index of spells the way it was done in the AD&D PH.
I also wish there were way less magic items. I always find it a waste of space in fantasy RPGs. (Like that's ever going to change - I don't know many people who agree).
I also would have liked it to be bigger although that's perhaps a function of reading dozens of "The book is enormous!" posts before I got my copies. I guess I ended up expecting an encyclopedia.