Its weaker because they dont have as many cool goodies as the other races...
Not weaker compared to 3.5. The race's power has gone up compared to 3.5.
The other races might have received a bigger boost than humans, but that doesn't mean PF humans are weaker than 3.5 humans. They're simply not.
Not that I agree that humans cannot compete in PF. Because I don't agree to that.
Tis is what still confuses me. The feat is good as always, the skill point is far more useful now it now means a fully maxed out extra skill if you wish and they now get a +2 which is often blown off as "everyone got a +2" but it's still a large bump in power over the 3.5 one all toldHoomans is always confoosed. Makes them eesier to catch and eats.
"Yes indeed...roasted with a little lemon pepper...ummmm yummy"
How exactly is this so much better?It's better than nothing especially if you were going to go that direction anyway.
That's a really, really bad way to look at it. 5 martial proficiencies aren't worth 5 feats (or fighters and other classes with all martial weapons would be way beyond broken).
What you are in essence saying is that it's OK for Elves to get 5 free Feats because it's in their Flavour.I don't think he was counting five martial weapon proficiencies as five feats. Maybe he was but I didn't take it that way. If I were going to break class features down as feats, I'd do something like this:
Elf (+5 feats)
Low-Light Vision (+1 feat)
Elven Immunities (+1 feat)
Elven Magic (+1.5 feat)
Keen Senses (+0.5 feat)
Weapon Familiarity (+1 feat)Dwarf (+6.5 feats)
Darkvision (+1.5 feats)
Defensive Training (+1 feat)
Greed (flavor)
Hatred (flavor)
Hardy (+2 feats)
Stability (+1 feat)
Stonecunning (+1 feat)
Weapon Familiarity (+1 feat)Human
Bonus Feat (any)
Skilled (any)Is being able to choose your feat and an extra skill really worth 5+ feats?
You have to really look at the value of the feat, and how much it comes into play to assess it correctly. If I had to choose between 5 feats that I dont care for or a feat of my choice. I would rather choose my own feat.
So you are saying all feats are not created equal? If not, then the feat system must be flawed in some way. Just because race X comes with feats, skill bonuses, abilities, etc that you find worthless doesn't mean they have no value and shouldn't be used to compare against race Y to see if there is some sort of balance issue between both races mechanically.
Arguing over which abilities and bonuses a dwarf, elf, human, etc should have is irrelevant for this discussion thread. This thread seems to be focused on game balance of humans vs the...
Of course all feats are not created equally.
When did I say anything was worthless, and when did I say anything about which abilities any race should have?
Don't all races get a +2 attribute increase overall?
Not a free one.
You shouldn't refer to a trait bonus that all races share.
I don't know about "should".
I know that when comparing humans from one system to humans from another system, all the other races are completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter what they get. If the humans in PF got more stuff than the humans in 3.5, the humans in PF are stronger than the humans in 3.5.
It's like saying that my new car (who can go 200 mph) is slower than my old car (who could go 100 mph) because everyone else has fighter jets now. They could have frikkin' spaceshops that can go Warp 11, it is completely irrelevant - my new car is faster than my old car.
From what I can tell so far, humans lost their favor class advantage from 3.0/3.5 over the other races.
Yes but the human does not receive a penalty. The other races do. I agree the favor class advantage shoul have remained strictly human
It does kinda make sense for half-elves, too. They're always between worlds.
Yes but the human does not receive a penalty. The other races do. I agree the favor class advantage shoul have remained strictly human
All hoomans should take the flavored class bonus. Sum of Hoomans is bland and we need to add halfling to our hooman stew.
So you are saying all feats are not created equal?Of course not. There is no grand formula to calculate feat power. Some are more powerful than others. Some have higher requirements. Some are more useful to this character than to that character. Some are more valuable to this player than to that player.....
Just because you value a feat over another one doesn't mean the less valued feat takes less feat slots or is mechanically weighted differently than the feat you like. A feat is a feat is a feat. True there is no magic formula to calculate a feat's power over another. However, once a ability is called a feat, it fills the feat slot on a character's sheet like another other feat and is considered to have equal value as any other feat when determining balance. If not, the feat system is flawed.
The major feat argument I see in this thread is that the Skill Focus racial trait of the 1/2 elf is not as great compared to a free feat that a human can take. Regardless of what you think of that feat, it is a still a feat. Therefore, 1/2 elves get a free feat just like humans, but they are restricted to Skill Focus. So, when I try to see if 1/2 elves are somewhat balanced with humans in racial traits, I see that both races get a free feat. Now we can argue how much of a bonus picking a free feat vs a fixed feat is, but in the end, both races get a free feat and they must be weighted equally when comparing balance between two.
My simple observation from reading the "Final" core book about the racial traits of the races seems that 1/2 elves are just slightly overpowered compared to the other races and humans are slightly underpowered. Seems like the 1/2 elves need a slight trim and the humans need a slight boost to their powers to achieve a good balance that doesn't stick out to an experienced game master. Then again, that's my opinion.
Yes but the human does not receive a penalty. The other races do. I agree the favor class advantage shoul have remained strictly humanno one cares that humans are now weaker than they were in 3.5 when all of the other races are better?How are they weaker? I cannot find anything they have lost (they still get 1 free feat, they still get a free skill point per level, their multiclassing is even more free-form than before, but that's a system-wide setting, anyway), but they did get a free +2.
How is that weaker?
Don't all races get a +2 attribute increase overall? You shouldn't refer to a trait bonus that all races share.
From what I can tell so far, humans lost their favor class advantage from 3.0/3.5 over the other races.
If I remember off the top of my head correctly, 1/2 elves and 1/2 orcs don't get a penaly.
...but some of those feats are like Christmas presents that will never be used. The human feat is more like someone giving you money so you can buy something you can want. You can't really put a value on something across the board.
Some are but things like Low-light vision, Darkvision and bonuses to perception are always very useful and almost all of the other races get two of these along with other things.
So I'm still trying to figure out how humans are weaker...
In 3.5, humans were the most common race chosen and that was mostly due to two things. No matter what class you chose, you didn't get enough feats or skill points to make what you wanted.
A Rogue, who got 8 SP from his class almost always had to dump 7 of those on the basic Rogue skills (Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Hide, Search, Open Lock, Disable Device). Now it costs 3 skills to do the same exact things (Perception, Stealth, Disable Device). You now get 4 more plus your favored class bonus.
Now you get a feat every other level instead of every third level. After 20 levels, you end up with three more feats, I believe.
Now that you get more skill points (basically) and more feats, the value of these goes down. Then you eliminate humans other only perk which would've equated to Multitalented and they get even weaker as they aren't good multiclassers anymore. If it weren't for the +2 to an ability score, they'd be hands down weaker than their 3.5 counterpart. Since everyone nets a +2 and the two half human races get to choose where the +2 goes, this isn't an advantage over any other race. It's pretty much equal.
So, how are they not weaker?
Just because you value a feat over another one doesn't mean the less valued feat takes less feat slots or is mechanically weighted differently than the feat you like. A feat is a feat is a feat. True there is no magic formula to calculate a feat's power over another. However, once a ability is called a feat, it fills the feat slot on a character's sheet like another other feat and is considered to have equal value as any other feat when determining balance. If not, the feat system is flawed.
OK, so then the feat system is flawed by your reasoning. Depending on class and goals, any feat can be weighted mechanically quite easily. And there are are feats with prequisites, which mechanically, since they are harder to get, should give more bang for the buck than one with no requirements and so on.
Which is why I'd say all the races are even in terms of base power (with humans possibly having a slight advantage). Humans racial abilities are usable no matter what class you are, no matter how many classes you have, and whether or not you are taking levels in a prestige class. Regardless of what kind of character you make, at 20th level, humans have 1 extra feat, and a minimum of 20 extra skill points (potentially 40 extra skill points or 20 skill points and 20 hp or some variation of 20+ skill points and bonus hp).
So now lets turn this around some...why should I have any given non-human race as a prefered pick when I sit down to make a character over a human?
Now that you get more skill points (basically) and more feats, the value of these goes down. Then you eliminate humans other only perk which would've equated to Multitalented and they get even weaker as they aren't good multiclassers anymore. If it weren't for the +2 to an ability score, they'd be hands down weaker than their 3.5 counterpart. Since everyone nets a +2 and the two half human races get to choose where the +2 goes, this isn't an advantage over any other race. It's pretty much equal.
So, how are they not weaker?
Umm no 1 skill point in PF = 1 maxed out skill which is better then 3.5
The feat is still super sweet a 1st level human fighter gets 3 that is something you really can never catch up with. No matter what you will always be 1 feat in front of everyone elseOn top of that you get a +2 boost that is in no way weaker. You lost nothing at all and gained a better skill point usage(though game changes) and a +2 this is in no way weaker then 3.5
Humans are still the preferred choice of race in my groups. Considering that at least 75% of my players pick a human, when creating PCs, I think they are fine the way they are.
Not everything in 3.5 needed something new.
Umm no 1 skill point in PF = 1 maxed out skill which is better then 3.5
Just about every class has less skills to take now and you can gain 1 SP/level through favored class. When you needed that extra skill point to take Hide to go along with your Move Silently, it was very important. When all you're getting it Knowledge (geography) or even Perception (which almost everyone in the group has maxed out), it's not quite as valuable as it once was.
The feat is still super sweet a 1st level human fighter gets 3 that is something you really can never catch up with. No matter what you will always be 1 feat in front of everyone else.
I guess feats will never go out of style. It's really the only thing you get and people keep coming back for more aparently. Still, if you ever take Skill Focus, Martial Weapon Prof, Exotic Weapon Prof, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude then you threw it away.
On top of that you get a +2 boost that is in no way weaker. You lost nothing at all and gained a better skill point usage(though game changes) and a +2 this is in no way weaker then 3.5
This was a system wide change that affects all races though. Every race gets these. If humans were the only race that got to choose where the +2 went, it would be huge. Since there are two other options, it is only a minor plus.
Humans are still the preferred choice of race in my groups. Considering that at least 75% of my players pick a human, when creating PCs, I think they are fine the way they are.
I guess that free feat is worth 20 abilities that you don't get to choose. :)
Not everything in 3.5 needed something new.
They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.
They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.
Nothing was removed from them and they gained the +2. They lost nothing nada, zip ,zero
Now if they got a +1 HP or Skill point from favored class and it got removed it be a big deal...Opps look they do get that...So no they lost nothing And they gained something.
They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.Nothing was removed from them and they gained the +2. They lost nothing nada, zip ,zero
Now if they got a +1 HP or Skill point from favored class and it got removed it be a big deal...Opps look they do get that...So no they lost nothing And they gained something.
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this. Humans lost it. Sure it might not be as big a deal as the feat or skill point but it easily could be. If you multiclass as a Fighter/Rogue, Gish...any even split multi-class, you just lost 10 of those 20 free skill points too. Why does everyone not count this? Just because they changed the name?
Humans are still the preferred choice of race in my groups. Considering that at least 75% of my players pick a human, when creating PCs, I think they are fine the way they are.I guess that free feat is worth 20 abilities that you don't get to choose. :)
Not everything in 3.5 needed something new.They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.
Don't understand the 1st part.
As to the second part… what Seeker said…
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this. Humans lost it. Sure it might not be as big a deal as the feat or skill point but it easily could be. If you multiclass as a Fighter/Rogue, Gish...any even split multi-class, you just lost 10 of those 20 free skill points too. Why does everyone not count this? Just because they changed the name?
They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.Nothing was removed from them and they gained the +2. They lost nothing nada, zip ,zero
Now if they got a +1 HP or Skill point from favored class and it got removed it be a big deal...Opps look they do get that...So no they lost nothing And they gained something.
I think it is because in 3.5 they never got the HP or skill points for a favored class, so they still come out ahead in that department.
Humans are still the preferred choice of race in my groups. Considering that at least 75% of my players pick a human, when creating PCs, I think they are fine the way they are.I guess that free feat is worth 20 abilities that you don't get to choose. :)Don't understand the 1st part.
No one seems to be on my side that 1 feat of your choice is not worth as much as Low-light/Darkvision + martial WP + Exotic WP + bonuses to some or all of your saves + plenty of other perks. I do appear to be pretty much on my own here.
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this.
No they did not lose it it was never there. The half elves gained back a 2e ability the humans lost nothing. They now have the same benefits everyone else does . Last I checked they still got favored class any they lost nothing
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this. Humans lost it. Sure it might not be as big a deal as the feat or skill point but it easily could be. If you multiclass as a Fighter/Rogue, Gish...any even split multi-class, you just lost 10 of those 20 free skill points too. Why does everyone not count this? Just because they changed the name?I think it is because in 3.5 they never got the HP or skill points for a favored class, so they still come out ahead in that department.
I don't understand. They used to have a very useful ability to multiclass without penalty to XP. Now Half-elves who also had the same thing have the very usefull ability to multiclass without penalty to the favored class bonus. Humans don't get this. I see this as something they lost. If they were converted one-to-one with 3.5, they would've recieved this. They are no better at multi-classing than any other race. They lost something there. They definitely didn't come out ahead.
No they did not lose it it was never there. The half elves gained back a 2e ability the humans lost nothing. They now have the same benefits everyone else does not lost nothing.
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this.
[bangs head against brick wall]
Silly me, I thought Paizo was converting over from 3.5, not 2E. My bad.
I have yet to find just what humans have lost. I am looking they still get favored class any with a better deal then they did. what is gone?
I have yet to find just what humans have lost. I am looking they still get favored class any with a better deal then they did. what is gone?
What are all of the other races favored classes?
what does that have to do with humans? what is gone? what is missing? nothing I can see.
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this. Humans lost it. Sure it might not be as big a deal as the feat or skill point but it easily could be. If you multiclass as a Fighter/Rogue, Gish...any even split multi-class, you just lost 10 of those 20 free skill points too. Why does everyone not count this? Just because they changed the name?
They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.Nothing was removed from them and they gained the +2. They lost nothing nada, zip ,zero
Now if they got a +1 HP or Skill point from favored class and it got removed it be a big deal...Opps look they do get that...So no they lost nothing And they gained something.
Where is this Multitalented ability you speak of? I have the 3.5 PH, the Beta, and the PFRPG books in front of me and I see nothing of the sort in any of them.
Humans did not lose favored class: any. All that happened was that all races now have access to it. I really don't see this as a nerf to humans. All it really does is open up more variety in class combos to the other races. It wasn't really a boon to humans in 3.5. There was no actual "benefit" in play, other than as a human, you could choose any two class combo you wanted without incurring any xp penalties if they were more than 1 level apart.
I don't understand your diminishing human's "Skilled" racial ability. If anything 1 skill point now goes significantly further depending on what you spend it on. If anything, this ability gained in power.
Between +2 to any ability, 1 free skill point per level, and 1 free feat at 1st level, no race has the versatility that humans have.
Nope, they lost Multitalented (formerly known as Favored Class: Any). Humans and Half-elves were the only two core races that got this. Humans lost it. Sure it might not be as big a deal as the feat or skill point but it easily could be. If you multiclass as a Fighter/Rogue, Gish...any even split multi-class, you just lost 10 of those 20 free skill points too. Why does everyone not count this? Just because they changed the name?
They only got 66% of what they had in 3.5 though. Something new would've been nice to fill in that piece they removed IMO.Nothing was removed from them and they gained the +2. They lost nothing nada, zip ,zero
Now if they got a +1 HP or Skill point from favored class and it got removed it be a big deal...Opps look they do get that...So no they lost nothing And they gained something.
OK, dude...learn to READ.
Humans get the extra skill point no matter what class they take. It doesn't rely on them taking a favored class. On TOP of the extra 1 skill point they automatically get, they get the usual +1 skill point or +1 hp per level taken in a favored class.
Seriously. If your going to try and argue rules/mechanics...at least read them, completely.
And since you won't stop about feats and all...heres an idea for you to chew on...
Humans represent potential, they can be anything (barring a very few prestige classes restricted to certain races [1 out of 10 in the Pathfinder core rules), and excel at it. Non humans can, if they play to their strengths, can possibly at low levels, be better than a human ( and when I say low, I mean the first 3 or 4) bt by 5th level, humans have evened the gap...and thas in classes these races are supposed to excel at (elven wizard for example).
You really, really need to sit down and do some min/maxing with characters, and I think you'll find that all the changed Paizo did was level the playing field between humans and non-humans so that humans aren't clearly the superior min/max choice.
*Edited to correct some intent.
No one seems to be on my side that 1 feat of your choice is not worth as much as Low-light/Darkvision + martial WP + Exotic WP + bonuses to some or all of your saves + plenty of other perks. I do appear to be pretty much on my own here.Humans are still the preferred choice of race in my groups. Considering that at least 75% of my players pick a human, when creating PCs, I think they are fine the way they are.I guess that free feat is worth 20 abilities that you don't get to choose. :)Don't understand the 1st part.
I normally design my characters before I play, and I often have to many feats on my wishlist. I can guarantee my human feat will be useful. Those other "feats" may never come into play. My philosophy is that I rather have one thing I know I will use than 5 things I might use. I beleive that other people that don't think humans are underpowered feel the same. The other camp seems to look at all the freebies that may come into place, even if they don't know if they will ever need them.
Humans did not lose favored class: any. All that happened was that all races now have access to it. I really don't see this as a nerf to humans.
[continues to bang head against brick wall]
Using this logic, we might as well give every other race +1 skill point per level and a free feat of their choosing. Humans wouldn't be nerfed in any way. I mean, it's not like they lost anything.
Humans did not lose favored class: any. All that happened was that all races now have access to it. I really don't see this as a nerf to humans.[continues to bang head against brick wall]
Using this logic, we might as well give every other race +1 skill point per level and a free feat of their choosing. Humans wouldn't be nerfed in any way. I mean, it's not like they lost anything.
Goes to see if they did..nope and humans still lst nothing. See they still have favored class any listed and look it works better now
Hey look they gained a +2 to any stat....sweet...still what is gone?
Humans did not lose favored class: any. All that happened was that all races now have access to it. I really don't see this as a nerf to humans.[continues to bang head against brick wall]
Using this logic, we might as well give every other race +1 skill point per level and a free feat of their choosing. Humans wouldn't be nerfed in any way. I mean, it's not like they lost anything.
I will state this again in 3.5 favored class did not give free hp or skill points so even if I only take 1 level of my favored class I still get at least one hp or skill point I would not have had otherwise.
I know the other classes got favored classes(any one they wish to choose) also, but that does not mean the humans lost anything.
I normally design my characters before I play, and I often have to many feats on my wishlist. I can guarantee my human feat will be useful. Those other "feats" may never come into play. My philosophy is that I rather have one thing I know I will use than 5 things I might use. I beleive that other people that don't think humans are underpowered feel the same. The other camp seems to look at all the freebies that may come into place, even if they don't know if they will ever need them.
These things do come into play though. Usually quite a bit. Seeing in the dark or twice as far as in low light or increased saving throws comes into play just as much as that Improved Initiative or Power Attack or Weapon Finesse or whatever. It's just as useful. It's just not as customizable. Given that choice is nice but I don't think it's enough to call it balanced compared to what all of the other races get.
No one seems to be on my side that 1 feat of your choice is not worth as much as Low-light/Darkvision + martial WP + Exotic WP + bonuses to some or all of your saves + plenty of other perks. I do appear to be pretty much on my own here.Humans are still the preferred choice of race in my groups. Considering that at least 75% of my players pick a human, when creating PCs, I think they are fine the way they are.I guess that free feat is worth 20 abilities that you don't get to choose. :)Don't understand the 1st part.
I'm on your side. You made your point and maybe the powers that be will think about that for when Pathfinder 2nd edition comes out. But until than see how this ship sails. If there be holes in the sail fix them with some good house rule patches. And for those who don't like humans, let them remember who put out Pathfinder, a bunch of humans :)
I don't understand. They used to have a very useful ability to multiclass without penalty to XP. Now Half-elves who also had the same thing have the very usefull ability to multiclass without penalty to the favored class bonus. Humans don't get this. I see this as something they lost. If they were converted one-to-one with 3.5, they would've recieved this. They are no better at multi-classing than any other race. They lost something there. They definitely didn't come out ahead.
I can see how you feel it is something that humans lost, but the fact is that humans never had that ability to begin with. Paizo added that ability to half-elves as a racial ability… it never existed before.
Perhaps you're thinking from a standpoint that a multiclass half-elf can now get more skill points than a multiclass human?
Assuming you put all your favored class points into skill points instead of extra hps:
A multiclass half-elf will get 20 skill points from favored class levels.
Looking at humans from 3 angles:
Lvl 10 favored/lvl 10
The human would get 10 skill points from favored class levels and 20 points from racial ability.
Lvl 19 favored/lvl 1
The human would get 19 skill points from favored class levels and 20 points from racial ability.
Lvl 1 favored/Lvl 19 (although why you'd do this I do not know)
The human would get 1 skill point from favored class levels and 20 points from racial ability.
The human beats the half-elf under all possibilities involving race alone. Humans don't need to be Multitalented.
I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else of anything. I am willing to agree to disagree for now.
Humans did not lose favored class: any. All that happened was that all races now have access to it. I really don't see this as a nerf to humans.[continues to bang head against brick wall]
Using this logic, we might as well give every other race +1 skill point per level and a free feat of their choosing. Humans wouldn't be nerfed in any way. I mean, it's not like they lost anything.
Goes to see if they did..nope and humans still lst nothing. See they still have favored class any listed and look it works better now
Hey look they gained a +2 to any stat....sweet...still what is gone?
Um, wow. I really wasn't expecting anyone to agree that giving all of the races every benefit of being human wouldn't be a nerf to humans.
Let me try this. Option A has three advantages. You give option X, Y and Z one of the same advantages that option A had. Sure option A didn't lose that advantage but it's no longer an advantage because all of the other options has it as well. How many advantages does option A have left? Is that number greater* or lesser?
* Don't include any additional advantages that every option gets as it still is not an advantage.
you lost me. And i think your just grasping at straws now. The facts are
1. Humans have everything they did before
2. Skills and favored class work better now
3. They gained a +2
so you saying they lost anything is not a fact,
I can see how you feel it is something that humans lost, but the fact is that humans never had that ability to begin with. Paizo added that ability to half-elves as a racial ability… it never existed before.
Perhaps you're thinking from a standpoint that a multiclass half-elf can now get more skill points than a multiclass human?
...
The human beats the half-elf under all possibilities involving race alone. Humans don't need to be Multitalented.
Yeah but they have to use exactly half of their racial features to achieve this. The half-elf gets a whole bunch of other things to go along with it.
I won't argue that if you want to play a skill monkey then you aren't going to get more SP than a human with his +2 put in INT. That's the only place I see them shining though.
you lost me. And i think your just grasping at straws now. The facts are
1. Humans have everything they did before
2. Skills and favored class work better now
3. They gained a +2so you saying they lost anything is not a fact,
They used to be able to multiclass without penalty. Now they have a penalty (they get less HP/SP). How is that not a loss?
You can say that XP penalty doesn't exist anymore and was completely replaced by something totally differnt but that still removes an advantage that humans had and nothing was put in to replace it. They lost something. They had three advantages over almost every other race. Now they have two. That appears to be one less than they had.
Humans did not lose favored class: any. All that happened was that all races now have access to it. I really don't see this as a nerf to humans.[continues to bang head against brick wall]
Using this logic, we might as well give every other race +1 skill point per level and a free feat of their choosing. Humans wouldn't be nerfed in any way. I mean, it's not like they lost anything.
Goes to see if they did..nope and humans still lst nothing. See they still have favored class any listed and look it works better now
Hey look they gained a +2 to any stat....sweet...still what is gone?
Um, wow. I really wasn't expecting anyone to agree that giving all of the races every benefit of being human wouldn't be a nerf to humans.
Let me try this. Option A has three advantages. You give option X, Y and Z one of the same advantages that option A had. Sure option A didn't lose that advantage but it's no longer an advantage because all of the other options has it as well. How many advantages does option A have left? Is that number greater* or lesser?
* Don't include any additional advantages that every option gets as it still is not an advantage.
You keep trying to count the options without weighing them. It is hard to put a weight on versatility, but it has to be accounted for. Saying one race got X and one race got Y will leave you with bad results.
Technically everyone got +2, but the human can put its +2 anywhere. Your above example is also flawed because it assumes they were equal before the change took place. Most optimizers used humans when optimizing because they led to the best possible result. If the humans were already a step ahead, and they lost a step they are even at worst.
not really the xp loose is gone it effected everyone. They still lost nothing.
Nothing was taken away. How multiclassing as a whole worked changed but the race lost nothing.
you lost me. And i think your just grasping at straws now. The facts are
1. Humans have everything they did before
2. Skills and favored class work better now
3. They gained a +2so you saying they lost anything is not a fact,
They used to be able to multiclass without penalty. Now they have a penalty (they get less HP/SP). How is that not a loss?
You can say that XP penalty doesn't exist anymore and was completely replaced by something totally differnt but that still removes an advantage that humans had and nothing was put in to replace it. They lost something. They had three advantages over almost every other race. Now they have two. That appears to be one less than they had.
I have the feeling you dont want the races to be even. You want the humans to be the clear front runners like they were before. Humans were the codzilla of the races. Now things are more even.
Technically everyone got +2, but the human can put its +2 anywhere.
Which would be great if they were the only ones to get it. Two other core races got it though which waters it down considerably. Other races converted over such as the Underfolk and anything else half human would also get this. It's not really special enough IMO to make it a great advantage comparatively speaking.
Your above example is also flawed because it assumes they were equal before the change took place. Most optimizers used humans when optimizing because they led to the best possible result. If the humans were already a step ahead, and they lost a step they are even at worst.
You used to have less to optimize with though. Skill points and feats were too few and far between. Now, not as much so which means that the only two advantages that humans have left, aren't as big as they were in 3.5.
A Rogue used to pretty much have to spend seven of his eight class skill points on rogue skills. Now they have to spend three to get the same abilities. They also get another one for favored class if they want it. With five extra SP to spend on whatever thay want, is that one free skill point as usefull a class feature as it was in 3.5. I don't think it is. Sure, this is an extreme example but just about every class has extra SP that they wouldn't have under 3.5.
To make matters worse, if you were thinking of spending your free feat on anything that you could get with a different race then huamn looks like a really bad choice for a race and you'll likely choose a different one unless it conflicts with your character concept.
I have the feeling you dont want the races to be even. You want the humans to be the clear front runners like they were before. Humans were the codzilla of the races. Now things are more even.
From a players perspective, I don't really care either way. I at least want them to be equal in power to the other races. I don't feel they are and have a bad feeling that when people really start min/maxing characters, that humans are going to get left in the dust.
From a DMs perspective, no I don't. I want humans to be slightly more attractive so that the playing a different race means more than just playing the race that best suits your class. It means playing a race because you wanted to play that race. Humans have always been the most attractive race just like Clerics have always had heavy armor prof. Even though I haven't opposed the latter, I'm not too fond of the former being changed.
It's going to be hard for me to play humans now, though. I have a tendency to take Skill Focus and specialize in one of my skills. This means that the only advantage that human would give me over half-elf is one SP per level. That compared to everything else a half-elf gets isn't even worth considering. Any spell caster who wants to take Combat Casting might as well choose half-elf over human now too unless that skill point and +1 to casting defensively (and -3 to all other concentration checks) is that important to you.
I can see how you feel it is something that humans lost, but the fact is that humans never had that ability to begin with. Paizo added that ability to half-elves as a racial ability… it never existed before.
Perhaps you're thinking from a standpoint that a multiclass half-elf can now get more skill points than a multiclass human?
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The human beats the half-elf under all possibilities involving race alone. Humans don't need to be Multitalented.
Yeah but they have to use exactly half of their racial features to achieve this. The half-elf gets a whole bunch of other things to go along with it.
I won't argue that if you want to play a skill monkey then you aren't going to get more SP than a human with his +2 put in INT. That's the only place I see them shining though.
Frogboy, you seem to keep trying to highlight half-elves. All a half elf gets to do is select 2 favored classes...they can split their levels between 2 base classes and still get the +1 skill point or +1 hp. Its a very situational sort of deal...most(not all, but most) characters won't stray from the one favored, plus any prestige classes. Then a half elf low light vision, a minor immunity (to sleep) a bonus to saves vs a narrow range of spells (enchantment), and a minor increase to perception checks.
Lets see here...the +2 to perception checks might matter up until level 5, where skill ranks start to outdo a +2 bonus, the bonus to saves vs enchantment may or may not be conditional useful till 5th or 6th level, the immunity to sleep is, likewise conditionally useful (depending on will save and how many mage types you run across who try to put the party to sleep vs killing them), low light vision is kinda useful, maybe...its still negated in darkness just like a humans, and there are ways to negate a lack of light if you need to, plus by mid levels, there are items to expand your range of vision anyway.
So...as I've said before...are you complaining because the non human races have a slight advantage at level 1? Humans close the gap by mid levels (assuming the gap even matters to what class your talking about) and at higher level play, humans (mechanically) still have a slight advantage over non-humans...and all this is before considering the roleplaying aspects of the game, just sticking to the mechanical ones...
I have the feeling you dont want the races to be even. You want the humans to be the clear front runners like they were before. Humans were the codzilla of the races. Now things are more even.From a players perspective, I don't really care either way. I at least want them to be equal in power to the other races. I don't feel they are and have a bad feeling that when people really start min/maxing characters, that humans are going to get left in the dust.
From a DMs perspective, no I don't. I want humans to be slightly more attractive so that the playing a different race means more than just playing the race that best suits your class. It means playing a race because you wanted to play that race. Humans have always been the most attractive race just like Clerics have always had heavy armor prof. Even though I haven't opposed the latter, I'm not too fond of the former.
I dont think any race is better for min/maxing than a human because min/maxing normally requires certain things, and humans seem to be made to allow you to choose exactly what you need. Most of the things the other races give can be covered by magic items. The human feat may not be covered by a magic item, and there is certainly not an item that grants so many skills.
I am done for tonight.
Alright guys, I've had enough fun for tonight. :)
One last note. Yeah, there are magic items that can grant special abilities that nonhuman races get but those take up one of your slots that could be used for something else. And there are plenty of magic items that grant skill points too.
Maybe a feat and skill point is worth everything that you give up by not choosing one of the other races. It just doesn't look nearly as appealing from where I'm sitting.
They used to be able to multiclass without penalty. Now they have a penalty (they get less HP/SP). How is that not a loss?You can say that XP penalty doesn't exist anymore and was completely replaced by something totally differnt but that still removes an advantage that humans had and nothing was put in to replace it. They lost something. They had three advantages over almost every other race. Now they have two. That appears to be one less than they had.
How is a mechanic that gives you a bonus a penalty? Why not just get rid of the favored class bonus all together? No one gets bonus HP or SP, no more problem. Humans retain being the most versatile with their skills and feat. Really its not an integral part of the game and all that's lost from 3.0 is an easily avoided XP penalty. It's certainly a better option then keeping the current system and then bring back set racial favored classes, forcing them to choose to play a concept and loosing out on a bonus or play a sterotype.