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I'm about to run this scenario on 30th August, and I have some things unclear.
1a) The ghosts' frightful moan DC isn't listed anywhere. I'm guessing it's DC 16 (10 + ½ HD + Charisma modifier + Ability Focus).
1b) Also, who came up with the idea of giving barbarian levels to an incorporeal ghost?
2) The lock box lists an Open Lock DC. Knowing that practically no other than rogues take Disable Device ranks (the skill that now incorporates Open Lock), how is the team supposed to open it? Sure, a sor/wiz could cast a Knock spell (if he/she had one), but I doubt anyone memorized one. Anyway, can the lock box be taken with them back to Kibwe and opened there? Alternatively, can they use the more common method "Mash it to bits"? I can't see why not.
Oh wait, the scenario says "If the PCs claim the lock box, reward each tier thusly..." Yeah they probably claim it, but don't open it. :)
3) Is there a way up the hole in Act 4 (Beetle encounter)? It seems odd to have 3 big critters in a cramped space trapped there, especially since the PCs can just, you know, shoot down the hole and kill those with ease. Any idea how to make this encounter, hmm, more interesting?
4) In Act 5 the Andoran faction needs a DC 25 Diplomacy check in order to shift them from unfriendly to friendly. That's VERY hard indeed!
5) The map in Act 6 could have used markers to all those altars. I have no idea where altars 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 should be. Do they form some sort of a half-circle? Or are the eight southernmost pillars (as in the map) supposed to be the altars?
6) Which effect does the Bestow Curse trap give? I have three options, but I wish to know if it should be stated there beforehand.
7) Intriguingly the PFRPG version of Summon Monster doesn't list Howler anywhere. Am I to assume Tyruwat is still able to summon a Howler despite? Also why don't the tactics say he should be casting Dominate Person in order to win the day? The Tier 10-11 tactics are just plain stupid. Wand of Charm Person? Hahaha! The effective DC of that charm is only 6! I'll just replace that with "use dominate person".
I think that's all. For now.
Hi Deussu,
1a) For the frightful moan ability, (10 + ½ HD + Charisma modifier + Ability Focus) is correct, just like any other ghost. So that's DC 15 for Tier 7-8 or DC 16 for Tier 10-11.
1b) Why not? The Mwangi tribesmen were barbarians in life.
2) I'm sure someone in Kibwe could open the box for the PCs, if necessary, but the "mash it to bits" method could also certainly work. If you're looking for HP/hardness values, I would use hardness 10, hp 15 for the small, iron lockbox.
3) Rather than standing right below the hole and waiting for the PCs to shoot at them, the bugs could hide in the corners of the room. Well, two of them can. Due to their size, I guess one of the bugs will be a clear target right beneath the hole. If you want to lure Andoran PCs down to the beetles, you could play up how the bugs are ripping apart the corpses they are supposed to bury.
4) Yes, this is hard. The first Andoran mission is easy, so the bonus mission is intended to be difficult. Also, look under the mission notes for Act 5. If the PCs fail their Diplomacy check, they could always knock the guards out, then drag them away to safety. Not the ideal way of saving them, but it works.
5) You are correct. Eight of the pillars on the map are intended to be the alters.
6) I just used the bestow curse trap as listed in the DMG, but I guess I should have been more specific. Use the "-4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks" effect.
7) This adventure was written for 3.5, not PFRPG. If you are translating it to the new rules, you might change the howler to be a different monster. I'm not sure why howlers aren't on the summon list anymore. As for Tyruwat's tactics, you make a good point. He should focus on dominate person instead.
I hope this helps. Good luck running the scenario!
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Ah, an answer from the author. The best kind there is!
1a) For the frightful moan ability, (10 + ½ HD + Charisma modifier + Ability Focus) is correct, just like any other ghost. So that's DC 15 for Tier 7-8 or DC 16 for Tier 10-11.
This is what I got: 10 + ½ HD (In tier 7-8 they have 2, in tier 10-11 5) + Charisma (16, means a modifier of +3) + Ability Focus (which gives a +2), equals to 16 in tier 7-8, and to 17 in tier 10-11.
2) I'm sure someone in Kibwe could open the box for the PCs, if necessary, but the "mash it to bits" method could also certainly work. If you're looking for HP/hardness values, I would use hardness 10, hp 15 for the small, iron lockbox.
Good to know!
3) Rather than standing right below the hole and waiting for the PCs to shoot at them, the bugs could hide in the corners of the room. Well, two of them can. Due to their size, I guess one of the bugs will be a clear target right beneath the hole. If you want to lure Andoran PCs down to the beetles, you could play up how the bugs are ripping apart the corpses they are supposed to bury.
The bugs are unable to avoid fireballs though. Would enlargening the basement chamber be a solution? Make the PCs climb down and after that the bugs would emerge from the dark shadows of a large crate-filled basement? Yeah, I have a habit of altering the maps a bit, so sue me.
4) Yes, this is hard. The first Andoran mission is easy, so the bonus mission is intended to be difficult. Also, look under the mission notes for Act 5. If the PCs fail their Diplomacy check, they could always knock the guards out, then drag them away to safety. Not the ideal way of saving them, but it works.
And I figured the other fellow pathfinders might help the Andoran by doing the work for him, actually! The Andoran mission is definitely not on par with the Qadiran mission, which is a LOT easier. ;)
6) I just used the bestow curse trap as listed in the DMG, but I guess I should have been more specific. Use the "-4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks" effect.
Good to know!
7) This adventure was written for 3.5, not PFRPG. If you are translating it to the new rules, you might change the howler to be a different monster. I'm not sure why howlers aren't on the summon list anymore. As for Tyruwat's tactics, you make a good point. He should focus on dominate person instead.
I realised this was made for 3.5, I was merely asking if I should still follow the scenario or replace the monster. I can't think of any good replacement though, as the Howl ability fits the 'mood' of the scenario better.
And yes, I'll be using those dominate persons are lot. Since Tyruwat is all alone there with only one summon, he needs to make the odds better for himself.
This is what I got: 10 + ½ HD (In tier 7-8 they have 2, in tier 10-11 5) + Charisma (16, means a modifier of +3) + Ability Focus (which gives a +2), equals to 16 in tier 7-8, and to 17 in tier 10-11.
Oops. I was only adding +1 for Ability Focus instead of +2. Your calculation is right.
The bugs are unable to avoid fireballs though. Would enlargening the basement chamber be a solution? Make the PCs climb down and after that the bugs would emerge from the dark shadows of a large crate-filled basement? Yeah, I have a habit of altering the maps a bit, so sue me.
The basement is small mostly because I was given a limited amount of map space to work with. If you want to enlarge it to improve the encounter, go for it!
I realised this was made for 3.5, I was merely asking if I should still follow the scenario or replace the monster. I can't think of any good replacement though, as the Howl ability fits the 'mood' of the scenario better.
Hmm. I can't think of any fitting replacements either. Unless anyone else has a better suggestion, it might be easier to just keep the howler.
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Now that I've successfully GM'd this module, I have something more to say about it to future GMs (and the author, of course).
1) This scenario has a lot of good atmosphere in it. Be sure to give as much beef as you can to the city of Kibwe. I personally described bits of it as 19th century African town where the British roamed. I made many of the locals speak Polyglot instead of Taldan, too.
2) Instead of having the howlers and the wild elf just have a patrol, instead I had them attack and attempt to capture Nangi. To make this simple, I practically disregarded Mudbelly and Nangi as combatants. As soon as the wild elf spotted the pathfinders, he ordered the howlers to engage them as he himself continued bashing Nangi unconscious. This way I practically merges two encounters into one.
2a) The howlers, however, were way too easy to beat. With only 39 hp it doesn't take many fireballs to kill them all. I think I got only one full-attack with them. I do, however, admit the team was way too powerful thanks to ridiculous summoning.
3) Continueing to the temple and the encounter with the ghosts... while the Frightful Moan did get rid of those pesky summoned creatures, they didn't do anything else. How are they meant to be a challenge? All they do is panic those who hear the moan. The damage is so ridiculously small the PCs could practically just walk past them.
If I was to run this scenario another time, I'd replace the corrupting touch with an WIS draining touch.
4) I also let the pathfinders skip the beetle encounter. I felt like it was a needless insert, so the small room was just engulfed in fireballs. Really, there's no reason for that encounter to be there.
5) Humanoids as enemies is something I really want to stress about. I practically made them just pass this encounter too with successful diplomacy checks.
6) The end boss was laughable. The fight ended in a round and Tyruwat never got a round of time to do anything. A few well-selected spells and proper maneuvers and it's over.
But what irritated me the most was the spoiling faction missions. Each of them seems to include some information not provided by the scenario, the pathfinder society or anything. How do those faction leaders know there are slaves, a shaman, or a cult of Zon-Kuthon? Seriously I hated that aspect.
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1) This scenario has a lot of good atmosphere in it. Be sure to give as much beef as you can to the city of Kibwe. I personally described bits of it as 19th century African town where the British roamed. I made many of the locals speak Polyglot instead of Taldan, too.
As I player in this game session I'll second this. The atmosphere is great. Remember the club at the beginning of that godawful League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film? Seemed the fit the mood perfectly. Of course we hired a lot of locals to carry our stuff and palanquins. OF course said bearers ran at the firs sign of trouble (or got eaten by howlers). Obviosly we just had to start our conversation with Nangi with "Dr. Nangi, I presume?"
Merging the two encounters worked out quite well. I'd imagine the howler encounter might have felt more like a random encounter if Nangi wouldn't have been involved. That being said, the encounter was way too easy. I think it lasted all of four combat rounds. Also, I don't really see how a group might end up fighting Nangi, so why is there a statblock for him?
The ghost encounter was funny. This is what happened: The barbarian and the ranger ran away and the three Chelaxian casters just hung out with the dead guys until they'd heard all of the lyrics bits, then blasted the ghosts with evocation and conjuration. Again, too easy.
The giant roaches got fireballed and finished off with arrows. A pointless encounter.
The Andoran quest -elves were just laughable as an encounter. Our skill monkey -halfling just snuck past them with skill roll totals of 50+ while the rest of us used diplomacy skill roll totals of around 40+ to convince them stop worrying and start loving satan.
The end boss was a breeze. Three save-or-sucks on round one and that was that. He didn't have the chance to cast a single spell.
Boy did the barbarian love this adventure. He got off one shot (at a ghost). Everything else was solved with Conjuration, Evocation, Diplomacy or Stealth. Pathfinder RPG really fixed those problems (the skill system and the power of arcane magic in comparison to fighter types) with the original game, yes sirree (The Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit problem).
"Massah, we no go further! Is tabu place! Is EVIL!"
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i modified / updated the mod:
sharing it and conversion notes so its transparent what i did.
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dg7p75ws_29hw2p8mgb
i gave the figher/druids precise shot. initially i was going to give them deadly aim, but being able to hit is handy. i did merge act 5 and act 6, having the archers back-up the bard and take advantage of his inspire courage to boost their attacks. that combined with deadly aim made it too powerful. i had given them fire domain, but switched to plant domain. the barkskin works nice with their prebuffing for patrol, and gets rid of their unstatted / non-combat animal companion. ( which goes unmentioned in act 5 )
they can still cast produce flame, and rapid shot 1d6+10 balls of fire. [ with inspire courage and Good Hope cast ]
i gave the bard good hope, which has a +2 morale bonus to attacks and damage, as well as saves, with the bard's level he can get himself, 3 elves, and his summoned creature. i also gave the bard silence, and left the doorway to the room silenced so PCs couldn't just lob fireballs from the foyer.
i used the "advanced" creature rules from the bestiary preview on the beetles, and merged the ghosts and the beetles encounter. in tier 10-11 it really doesn't make much sense since 3 huge beetles can't fit down there. so i let them crawl up... beetles do climb, in real life i mean, right? I merged the acts, it can be fun to do that, or enlarge the crypt room and have the ghosts and beetles attack after the PCs enter the real crypt area.
The barbarian ghosts REALLY didn't make much sense, because there's no way for a barbarian to take Ability Focus at level 1... before he is a ghost in the first place. if this were some ghostwalk campaign, and he was advancing in level after he died.... maybe he could take it at 3rd level.
I don't know if it was corrected in other updates of the mod but:
druids cannot wear studded leather armor. and the witch doctor druid could not have taken the feats listed. he wouldn't qualify for weapon focus or exotic weapon proficiency at 1st level, and would have to have taken one of them at 1st, in order to have natural spell at 6th ( in 3.5). not that any of the groups will really choose to fight him, they're given a coin and told to pay him not beat him up. I fixed the feats for the druid in pathfinder ( giving him blind fight and toughness at 1st level, exotic weapon proficiency at 3rd, natural spell at 5th and weapon focus at 7th. ) , but it doesn't make much sense to keep the spiked chain either with the change to the rules. but i left it alone since act 2 is 95% going to be a non-combat encounter.
i agree with dessu, merging act 1 and act 2 would work great. wish i'd thought of that.
I ran the bard slightly more aggressively. with spell focus conjuration and augmented summoning, and swapping out for summon monster V and calling in an augmented babau demon, and taking improved invisibility which he used on himself and on the demon...
having a sneak attacking, augmented, invisible demon and 3 elves using produce flame was very effective.. .too effective. so i toned it down and gave the bard toughness and greatr spell focus. that should keep the tone of the bard but keep the spells he casts intesting.
i think he can cast charm/enchantment spells from invisibility without breaking the invisibility, right? summons i know you can. his best bet is to stay invisible, summon, buff and heal ( though pcs will be able to listen for him, since he's performing )
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I'm confused here. I was under the distinct impression we, as GMs, were not allowed to modify scenarios when running in the PFS. I remember asking this question last year and received a big, fat official "no." This included changing the monsters to the number of scenes.
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I'm confused here. I was under the distinct impression we, as GMs, were not allowed to modify scenarios when running in the PFS. I remember asking this question last year and received a big, fat official "no." This included changing the monsters to the number of scenes.
Practically I never changed the combat encounters. Morphing Act 1 and 2 just made it more sensible as to why the patrol is there. Also seeing Nangi in danger gave the pathfinders a good reason to hurry.
Besides one could always run these as home games and do whatever they want. Despite that, I doubt it'd make constructive criticism less important.
All seraphimpunk is doing there is converting the module into PFRPG. It requires some own creativity as characters might gain additional feats and such.
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I'm confused here. I was under the distinct impression we, as GMs, were not allowed to modify scenarios when running in the PFS. I remember asking this question last year and received a big, fat official "no." This included changing the monsters to the number of scenes.
... which is really funny when you remember the Pathfinder RPG catch-phrase is "It is YOUR game now!". ;)
Anyways, here's a quote from the Pathfinder RPG rulebook (p. 402):
"Likewise, don’t feel bound to the predetermined plot of an encounter or the rules as written. Feel free to adjust the results or interpret things creatively—especially in cases where you as the GM made a poor assumption to begin with."
Funny stuff.
... which is really funny when you remember the Pathfinder RPG catch-phrase is "It is YOUR game now!". ;)Anyways, here's a quote from the Pathfinder RPG rulebook (p. 402):
"Likewise, don’t feel bound to the predetermined plot of an encounter or the rules as written. Feel free to adjust the results or interpret things creatively—especially in cases where you as the GM made a poor assumption to begin with."
All of which is trumped by the needs of the Organized Play campaign. As a Pathfinder Society Judge, I don't like the idea of people making more than cosmetic or minor changes to the scenarios, then turning around and reporting them as though they were the same scenarios that other players have taken part in, or other judges have run. As an Organized Play campaign, we're supposed to be on an even footing. How would it feel if you were part of a TPK in one module, then come here and find out that another Judge completely eliminated or rewrote the module, then reported the results to Josh and company? That said, based on the comments in this thread, while I think most of the changes were most likely for the better, and included necessary corrections, they SHOULD HAVE BEEN RUN BY JOSH BEFORE BEING USED IN THE CAMPAIGN!
A question for those modding scenarios and "officially" running them:
Did you play in an OP campaign before PFS and were you allowed to heavily modify the mods you ran in those campaigns? For example, did Living Greyhawk allow mod modifications?
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A question for those modding scenarios and "officially" running them:
Did you play in an OP campaign before PFS and were you allowed to heavily modify the mods you ran in those campaigns? For example, did Living Greyhawk allow mod modifications?
Normally no the mods are intended to be run as written. The conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 did require some modifications. And it was always possible to trip more than one encounter and have a tougher fight than intended. Additionally there have always been judges who feel they have the right to make small adjustments if the party seems to be having too easy a time with it. It is the nature of any OP tactical game.
Having survived the modified game that Seraphimpunk ran last night (I say survived because we grabbed the box and ran with no chance of winning the modifed last fight)I think it will be a reality that judges who update stat blocks and adjust feats will have a tendency to optimize the NPC's. The PFRPG coversion is more dramatic so the changes will make the mods tougher.
It is a risk that players will have to be aware of playing season 0 mods.
Ultimately, Josh, I think the conversion issue is indeed going to need to be addressed by HQ at some point. While I understand you not wanting to issue official conversions to the modules, I think that we may well need them anyway. The only other alternative is to immediately and irrevocably retire all Season 0 mods. Unless we have official conversions, everyone is going to be doing their own versions, and no two are likely to match as a result.
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that's why i'm at least trying to get fan-created conversions, at least for the mods that I run, so they're consistently ( if not spectacularly ) converted, and can be updated if there are errors or feedback.
i'm only posting the google document so other GMs have access to the same updated game statistics.
if the author has something to say about what they would have done with the modifications ( usually it amounts to one extra feat and a few extra hit points ), then I'll listen and update the document.
I cannot retired 28 scenarios. Ain't gonna happen.
I also can't allow scenarios to be converted in such a way as the new conversions result in fully-optimized, PC-destroying NPCs.
The Society needs play that's consistent--scenario #14 being played in Miami, FL needs to be the same #14 being played in Japan, otherwise one of those two groups is either getting an unnecessarily hard adventure or the opposite.
We'll need to discuss this here at HQ and formalize a policy.
I cannot retired 28 scenarios. Ain't gonna happen.
I also can't allow scenarios to be converted in such a way as the new conversions result in fully-optimized, PC-destroying NPCs.
The Society needs play that's consistent--scenario #14 being played in Miami, FL needs to be the same #14 being played in Japan, otherwise one of those two groups is either getting an unnecessarily hard adventure or the opposite.
We'll need to discuss this here at HQ and formalize a policy.
I agree. They can't just be retired, but they can't be converted without some sort of universal balance. However, may I make a suggestion?
Allow us to work out the conversions for you guys, working with the original designers. We have a forum of some sort to do this in, and work together. Then you, or someone else at HQ will review the conversions, and has final approval. That way, we can take most of the workload off you guys, but we do get a balanced conversion. Unfortunately, this does still have one problem. What to do about the scenarios until the approved conversions are available?
Director of Brand Strategy
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I cannot retired 28 scenarios. Ain't gonna happen.
I also can't allow scenarios to be converted in such a way as the new conversions result in fully-optimized, PC-destroying NPCs.
The Society needs play that's consistent--scenario #14 being played in Miami, FL needs to be the same #14 being played in Japan, otherwise one of those two groups is either getting an unnecessarily hard adventure or the opposite.
We'll need to discuss this here at HQ and formalize a policy.
As someone who has played in two converted scenarios (including this one run by Seraphimpunk), I have a mixed opinion on them. I think that some conversion is necessary, especially above tier 4-5, as PC power under PFRPG is substantially higher by level 7 than it is under 3.5. Every unconverted scenario I've seen run above level 5 has been a cakewalk. I did, however, at GenCon, run an unofficial game for 5th level PFRPG characters in unconverted Mists of Mwangi and it was almost a TPK without them even getting to the final act. So I think unconverted scenarios can still be lethal.
My issue with conversions, though, is that a lot of the decisions that go into updating NPCs require some creativity on the part of the converter. For any classes that have new school/bloodline/domain powers, it's especially difficult to guage how selecting one over another will actually play out. When something goes through full development with Josh, it is playtested and then reviewed by Josh or someone else who is checking for balance. The last two scenarios I've played, I was essentially a playtester, except it was my real PC who risked death. In both cases, the scenario ran over and the final encounter was far more difficult than even the final encounters in the 4 native PFRPG scenarios were. Some of these unbalancing elements could easily have been changed to less optimal choices and still made the encounters difficult.
My suggestion is to set a clear conversion guide for past scenarios. I know time is tight, but perhaps a rundown of just the optional changes can be made for each scenario, such as what bonus feats to add, what bloodline to take, etc. This way, the actual choices can be made by a designer or developer but the actual gruntwork of redoing the statblocks can be undertaken by GMs wishing to make the conversions. And players in games all over the place will all face the same, standardized NPCs and have as close to the same play experience as you can get with different GMs and different groups of players.
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The ideal of always having equal play experiences is hard to achieve. You also have to remember some of the worse GMs, who might do ruling errors and drastically change the way the combat is played
Personally I dislike modifying even to the smallest bit (yes, even merging two acts into one). If I feel a need to modify, whether it'd be plot or combat, I get the nagging feeling something's inheritable wrong.
As it just so happens, Lyrics was such a breeze for the PCs (regardless of how I ran it), the game experience felt vague and kinda "meh" despite the awesome atmosphere. It was like an odd version of Indiana Jones, where all excitement was taken apart.
I still plan on making some "personal guide to making combats" article thingy... when I'm being lazy about it. If nothing else, it'll work as insight to some, I hope.