Question about mounts


Rules Questions


My character is a level 5 paladin with the divine bonded mount. As I progress i hope to have the mounted combat, ride by attack, and spirited charge feats. If I wanted to use the combat maneuver overrun, do I or my mount need to learn the feats improved overrun, greater overrun and trample? From my interpretation it uses the paladin's feats and paladin's cmb. However, this seems odd because it is the horse that is using its large size to do the maneuver. Perhaps I am overthinking the ability or simply confused. Using the player's cmb seems a more superior option (although it is feat expensive for a paladin) since the mounts BAB and CMB will always be low. In addition the mount would have to wait until the paladin is level nine before it could learn greater overrun because of its BAB requirement of 6. But if it uses the paladin's action than it seems that it would be impossible to both charge and deal damage with the spirited charge feat and also perform an overrun maneuver.

Now, I assume that if you charge with a lance you can use the spirited charge feat to do three times normal damage. However, if the overrun feat chain is dependent on the paladin and not the mount then you wouldn't be able to also use overrun because that takes an attack action as well. However, the ride skill says in the fight with combat trained mount section that a mount can attack as well as the rider as a free action. In the mounted combat section it states that if a mount moves more than five feet the rider can not take more than a standard action so it is like the rider and mount both use up their movement action when the mount moves. Thus on a horse's charge the rider is not able to full attack. However, on a charge does the mount get its own attack as well as the rider's attack? If the mount does indeed get its own attack, then the mount could use its own feat chain to perform an overrun. In any case the greater overrun feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against the fallen foe and the trample feat allows the horse to make an attack against the fallen foe. Do these two feats stack i.e. against a fallen foe you get two attacks? And who makes the attack of opportunity the mount or the rider?

I guess I am wondering if the mounted combat, ride by attack and spirited charge line of feats is complimentary to the overrun line of feats i.e. a paladin trained in both feat lines can perform both in one charge, or if they are seperate actions that can not be combined. Thanks for any answers to my questions. I have never used mounted combat rules before and I am guessing I am making it more complicated than it actually is.

Nathan


I've got a lot of questions abiut mounted combat too. It was unclear in 3.5 and it has not gone better in PF.

Quote:
If I wanted to use the combat maneuver overrun, do I or my mount need to learn the feats improved overrun, greater overrun and trample?

Overrun is taken as part of the move action, and it's the horse that makes that move, so it is the mount CMB which you must use.

In many places it reads "you" (ex in trample it reads "when you attemp to overrun"), so it is not very clear, anyway.

Quote:
However, on a charge does the mount get its own attack as well as the rider's attack?

Yes. The rider uses a move action to order his mount to attack (check the Handle Animal skill). He also gets an attack at the end of the charge if he is succesful in his ride check (Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount). I suppose this attack should be taken as an standard action, but that cannot be used to do anything except a single attack. Special attacks that can be taken in place of an attack should be allowed, too.

Notice that if your mount takes a full attack, the rider can't take a full attack, as he must take a move action to order his mount to attack.

Quote:
In any case the greater overrun feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against the fallen foe and the trample feat allows the horse to make an attack against the fallen foe. Do these two feats stack i.e. against a fallen foe you get two attacks? And who makes the attack of opportunity the mount or the rider?

I would say the attacks stack. One of them is an attack of opportunity, the other is a plain attack. Of course, it's the mount that gets both attacks, as it is making the overrun, and the Trample feat says it is the mount that makes the attack.

Quote:
I guess I am wondering if the mounted combat, ride by attack and spirited charge line of feats is complimentary to the overrun line of feats i.e. a paladin trained in both feat lines can perform both in one charge, or if they are seperate actions that can not be combined.

At first I'd say no, because they are made by two diferent agents.

Quote:
Thanks for any answers to my questions. I have never used mounted combat rules before and I am guessing I am making it more complicated than it actually is.

No, they are this complicated, at least they are for me. One of the splatbooks in 3.0 offered some examples of mounted combat, but I don't know if those examples are still useful with all the changes in the rules.

I will post here my own questions, too. I expect Paizo explain it right, or I will have to house rule the whole mounted combat.


Question 1. Lance. "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."
So do you apply your STR (as the lance is wielded with one hand), or 1,5x your STR (as the lance is a two-handed weapon)?
What about if you wield a lance in your off-hand?
My bet: you only apply 1x your Str, or 0.5X if wieldieng in your off-hand.


2) Moving / Attacking / Charging
"Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."
"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted."
"...while your mount is taking a double move...Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
Questions:
- I suppose that "directing" a mount is a free action, though it is not said anywhere.
- While the mount is moving, you should be able to make any kind of actions. Mounted combat explicitly allows spells and ranged full-attack, moving actions, single melee attack and full-attack. Is this an standard attack o specifically a "single" attack? Could you cleave for ex.? Could you use a combat maneuver that replaces an attack?
- When can be made that "single attack"? Is it compatible with a double move? Ex can I attack (my action), then move+move (mount's actions)? Or perhaps I can attack only when my mount is not moving (that is what I think), except for a charge. Can I ready an action to attack when my mount has come close to my foe? I would say no to this, as my mount acts on my initiative.
- You can't take the full-attack action and make your horse attack even if your horse has not moved, as you have to spend a move action in instructing it to attack (Handle Animal skill rules). But the "Fight with a Combat-trained mount" maneuver lets you make your own attack or -attacks- normally. First, this shouldn't be required to make just one attack, as the instruction to attack is just a move action and you have a standard action. Then if you don't have success in this manuever you can't make a single attack? In a full-attack action, your "handle animal" move action becomes a free action?

About your mount combat capabilities:
- What kind of attacks can your mount make? If it is horse, sure it can charge and overrun, and maybe Bull Rush, and it can't grapple; but Aid Another, Disarm or Trip are more difficult to assign.

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge."
Questions here regarding charge:
- "If you make an attack at the end of the charge...". Well, not at the end always, because your lance has reach and your horse does not. That means that after you attack, your mount continues its move (5' more). Then an opponent with a reach weapon could make an AoO against you. COuld you order your mount to "charge but just stop 5' before the enemy"?Or maybe your mount always stop when you do the attack?
- Also, it doesn's state that your target must be the same that your mount's, nor that this attack must be a melee one, nor that you actually have an action to make that attack. It would be better something like:
"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. You can make a single melee attack against the same foe your mount is charging, when you are at the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. You receive the bonus gained from the charge". mmm... Someone who knows English better could make this phrase sound better.


3) Ride-By Attack.
"Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack."
Charge: "You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent." "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."
Mounted combat: "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

Questions:
a) You don't charge, your mount does charge. Or both are? Who takes the
charge action? The Ride-By Attack seems to point that is you, the Charge section, your horse.
b) If you charge, you must move to the closest space from which you can
attack. That means that most of the time, if you continue your Ride-By
movement, you are moving THROUGH the space occupied by your enemy. Is this feat supposed to allow a free Overrun, with your enemy choosing always to avoid you, or it should be treated as a separated manuever, required if you want to continue moving? If the last, is the horse making this maneuver or are you?

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

One item I have taken for granted, correctly or not since 3.0, Guide With Knees replaces Handle Animal checks while actually mounted. If you accept that, it does simplify some of your points about how actions taken by the rider interact with actions taken by the mount. Does that make sense?

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

Couple more assumptions.

You can have the mount perform Combat Maneuvers, yes, Combat Maneuvers are attacks and you can direct you mount to attack. The mount uses it own CMB, and appliable feats unless an ability specificly states otherwise, as does Trample.

Agree, clear enough?

I case you are wondering I am putting together a list of rules clarifactions for my own group based on problems that frequently cmae up in 3.5, so far Overrun is the only item we have satisfactory results for, but not for using it while mounted. So now Mounted Combat is getting the treatment.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
angelroble wrote:

Question 1. Lance. "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."

So do you apply your STR (as the lance is wielded with one hand), or 1,5x your STR (as the lance is a two-handed weapon)?
What about if you wield a lance in your off-hand?
My bet: you only apply 1x your Str, or 0.5X if wieldieng in your off-hand.

I just read thru the applicable RAWs (is to OK to say RAWs?).

I have to agree with you 1x your STR(simply based on the bastard sword and Dwarven waraxe), but I hope we can get PFRPG to add a special property to the Lance that is does 1.5x. Meanwhile I will House rule it.

Of course with the Paizo staff unable or unwilling to respond to the glut of clarification questions I'm sure will be waiting for a while.


angelroble wrote:
Notice that if your mount takes a full attack, the rider can't take a full attack, as he must take a move action to order his mount to attack.

I'm unable to find anything in the rules that states that a mount and rider can't make a full attack. Could you please let me know where, as all I could find was:

Attacking with a combat-trained mount is a free action on a DC 10 ride check.
Attacking with a non-combat-trained mount is a move action on a DC 20 ride check.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
angelroble wrote:
Notice that if your mount takes a full attack, the rider can't take a full attack, as he must take a move action to order his mount to attack.

I'm unable to find anything in the rules that states that a mount and rider can't make a full attack. Could you please let me know where, as all I could find was:

Attacking with a combat-trained mount is a free action on a DC 10 ride check.
Attacking with a non-combat-trained mount is a move action on a DC 20 ride check.

The problem is that ordering your mount to attack is a move action, per the handle animal skill.

"Fight with a Combat Training Mount" is a Ride maneuver that lets you attack the same round you order your mount to attack; but you have to spend a move action on that order, so you can use the (standard) attack action, but not the full-attack action. The ride maneuver is a free action, but the order is not. It doesn't say so.
If it was to mean that, it should read something like:
"If you want to attack in the same round as your mount, you have to make a DC 10 ride skill check as a free action along the use of the Handle Animal skill. If you make it, the Handle Animal move action becomes a free action, and you can take your attacks normally. If you don't pass the check, you can't attack."

The Control Mount in Battle maneuver does not let you attack at the same time of your (un-trained) mount. You can attack, but your mount can't as it doesn't know the trick.


Andrew Phillips wrote:
One item I have taken for granted, correctly or not since 3.0, Guide With Knees replaces Handle Animal checks while actually mounted. If you accept that, it does simplify some of your points about how actions taken by the rider interact with actions taken by the mount. Does that make sense?

Guide with Knees only lets you use both hands, it is not about what actions you are allowed to perform. Of course, you can widen the effects of the maneuver, but that is a house rule.

In fact, in my gaming group we just don't use the Handle Animal skill: if your mount is trained, you order it actions freely.
The problem is with RAW, which I think is very unclear.


Andrew Phillips wrote:

Couple more assumptions.

You can have the mount perform Combat Maneuvers, yes, Combat Maneuvers are attacks and you can direct you mount to attack. The mount uses it own CMB, and appliable feats unless an ability specificly states otherwise, as does Trample.

Agree, clear enough?

Yeah, it's fine: your mount makes its own CM with its CMB, that's RAW. The problem is that for ex. you want to use your Ride By Attack feat. If your mount has to make an Overrun maneuver to pass through your foe's space, the feat is quite useless in higher levels, as the CMDs will grow but your mount's CMB will not (except for animal companions).

In 3.5 Overrun was an Str check, and it was viable at high levels, at least against non combatant enemies.


angelroble wrote:

Questions:

a) You don't charge, your mount does charge. Or both are? Who takes the
charge action? The Ride-By Attack seems to point that is you, the Charge section, your horse.

EDIT, I'd say this has Priority,

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge."

And if in doubt, assume that the rider is affected as if charging by things that target charging targets.

angelroble wrote:

b) If you charge, you must move to the closest space from which you can

attack. That means that most of the time, if you continue your Ride-By
movement, you are moving THROUGH the space occupied by your enemy. Is this feat supposed to allow a free Overrun, with your enemy choosing always to avoid you, or it should be treated as a separated manuever, required if you want to continue moving? If the last, is the horse making this maneuver or are you?

Well, it kind of looks like Pathfinder un-nerfed the Overrun maneuver. At the Dawn of 3.5 Overrun had been changed to make absolutely sure your allies blocked your charge, with the side effect of utterly nerfing the overrun maneuver.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun
Nerfed 3.5 Overrun
You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move [SNIP!]. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.

Now once again overrun looks like it ?might? be part of a charge.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#overrun
Pathmaker Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.

So the way I'd run it, you charge your target, moving directly toward the soon to be victim. The rider makes his charge attack. After the attack, you can now keep moving in the line of the charge. If the victim lived through the attack, you now begin the overrun procedure.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
angelroble wrote:
Andrew Phillips wrote:

Couple more assumptions.

You can have the mount perform Combat Maneuvers, yes, Combat Maneuvers are attacks and you can direct you mount to attack. The mount uses it own CMB, and appliable feats unless an ability specificly states otherwise, as does Trample.

Agree, clear enough?

Yeah, it's fine: your mount makes its own CM with its CMB, that's RAW. The problem is that for ex. you want to use your Ride By Attack feat. If your mount has to make an Overrun maneuver to pass through your foe's space, the feat is quite useless in higher levels, as the CMDs will grow but your mount's CMB will not (except for animal companions).

In 3.5 Overrun was an Str check, and it was viable at high levels, at least against non combatant enemies.

Ok, that is correct I beleive we understand the RAW, so for Ride By Attack to work as a viable feat the tight restriction on Charge needs to be changed OR the Ride by Attack feat needs to to be changed so the you can ride by and attack an opponent much like Spring Attack.

At least I now have the answer for using a mounted Overrun with the RAW; and in conjunction with Ride by Attack even it only works against weaker opponents.


angelroble wrote:

The problem is that ordering your mount to attack is a move action, per the handle animal skill.

"Fight with a Combat Training Mount" is a Ride maneuver that lets you attack the same round you order your mount to attack; but you have to spend a move action on that order, so you can use the (standard) attack action, but not the full-attack action. The ride maneuver is a free action, but the order is not. It doesn't say so.
If it was to mean that, it should read something like:
"If you want to attack in the same round as your mount, you have to make a DC 10 ride skill check as a free action along the use of the Handle Animal skill. If you make it, the Handle Animal move action becomes a free action, and you can take your attacks normally. If you don't pass the check, you can't attack."

The Control Mount in Battle maneuver does not let you attack at the same time of your (un-trained) mount. You can attack, but your mount can't as it doesn't know the trick.

It seems odd that you would have to make 2 checks (a Ride and a Handle Animal) to have your mount attack. Also, based your rules reference, a non-combat trained mount could never attack since it takes a move action for the Ride check and a move action for the Handle Animal check to get it to attack, which doesn't leave a standard action to attack with.

Also, on page 104, the Ride skill's "Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount" states "If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action." Since this refers to iterative attacks which require a full-round action, this would be impossible based on what you mentioned as it takes a move action to make the Handle Animal check.

I suspect that the Ride check replaces the Handle Animal check when mounted. I think this makes sense, since you are not really standing beside the animal and pointing and directing the animal where to attack.

Hopefully someone from Paizo can clarify this, as I can't really dispute the reasoning for using the Handle Animal check, other than its use would invalidate other rules.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:


I suspect that the Ride check replaces the Handle Animal check when mounted. I think this makes sense, since you are not really standing beside the animal and pointing and directing the animal where to attack.

I'd say that that is the intention and that the rules are clear enough on that part.

Shame D20 Riding has not seen a decent in the rulebook example since 3.0's [i]Sword and Fist[/1], since there are more areas that are murkier.

Like; When Ride by attacking, if you have reach and your mount doesn't, do you get to stop for your attack, mover forward one square, make the mount's attack, then keep going? Or by choosing to use a reach weapon, do you forsake your mount's attack in the deal?

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
angelroble wrote:

2) Moving / Attacking / Charging

"Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."
"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted."
"...while your mount is taking a double move...Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
Questions:
- I suppose that "directing" a mount is a free action, though it is not said anywhere.

After reading Handle Animal again “directing” the mount for it’s actual movement, not the performance of tricks is “no action”, for what that is worth. I gather this from the General Purposes of Combat Training and Riding both state that the animal is trained to bear the rider were “Bear the Rider” is not a trick.

angelroble wrote:
- While the mount is moving, you should be able to make any kind of actions. Mounted combat explicitly allows spells and ranged full-attack, moving actions, single melee attack and full-attack. Is this an standard attack o specifically a "single" attack? Could you cleave for ex.? Could you use a combat maneuver that replaces an attack?

The RAW specifically prohibits the Full Attack Action. It also states that you “can only make a single melee attack” I take that to mean melee attack action. There is the restriction that ranged attacks take place when the mount has made half of its movement for the round. OF course none of the helps since Cleave allows you to “as a standard action, to make a single attack...” So our text should be similar to the mounted combat text about spell casting but should just refer to Standard Actions instead of single attack.

angelroble wrote:

- - When can be made that "single attack"? Is it compatible with a double move? Ex can I attack (my action), then move+move (mount's actions)? Or perhaps I can attack only when my mount is not moving (that is what I think), except for a charge. Can I ready an action to attack when my mount has come close to my foe? I would say no to this, as my mount acts on my initiative.

- You can't take the full-attack action and make your horse attack even if your horse has not moved, as you have to spend a move action in instructing it to attack (Handle Animal skill rules). But the "Fight with a Combat-trained mount" maneuver lets you make your own attack or -attacks- normally. First, this shouldn't be required to make just one attack, as the instruction to attack is just a move action and you have a standard action. Then if you don't have success in this maneuver you can't make a single attack? In a full-attack action, your "handle animal" move action becomes a free action?

About your mount combat capabilities:
- What kind of attacks can your mount make? If...

Wow, I now have too much information for my PFRPG rules clarification document.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I know this should go in House Rules but since this thread helped me to form it:

Ride-by Attack [Revised](Combat)

While mounted you execute a daring attack dashing past your opponent.

Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.

Benefit: As a full round action, when you are mounted you may move up to double your mounted speed in a straight line and at any point along this line you may attack an opponent within your melee reach using a Standard Action to attack. You also gain the benefits and penalty associated with a charge. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.


Frankthedm wrote:
angelroble wrote:

Questions:

a) You don't charge, your mount does charge. Or both are? Who takes the
charge action? The Ride-By Attack seems to point that is you, the Charge section, your horse.

EDIT, I'd say this has Priority,

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge."

And if in doubt, assume that the rider is affected as if charging by things that target charging targets.

I did know about that sentence. What I was asking is if I must take the charge action (full round) or I just need an standard action to make that attack, maybe taking an additional move action (draw a shield, intimidating, etc.).

About Ride-By Attack, the 3.5 FAQ cleared some things, as showed in other thread. I will post about it later.


Quote:

Questions here regarding charge:

- "If you make an attack at the end of the charge...". Well, not at the end always, because your lance has reach and your horse does not. That means that after you attack, your mount continues its move (5' more). Then an opponent with a reach weapon could make an AoO against you. COuld you order your mount to "charge but just stop 5' before the enemy"?Or maybe your mount always stop when you do the attack?

To solve this I will take the 3.5 FAQ ruling.

"When you make a mounted charge, must you stop once
you are in melee range of your target? Or do you continue
past the opponent?
If you don’t have the Ride-By Attack feat, your movement
for the turn you perform a charge ends when you attack. You
must make the attack as soon you can."
So: if your mount charges a target, you can make an attack with a melee weapon, ending your mount's charge. You must make the attack as soon as you can.


Andrew Phillips wrote:
angelroble wrote:

2) Moving / Attacking / Charging

"Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."
"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted."
"...while your mount is taking a double move...Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
Questions:
- I suppose that "directing" a mount is a free action, though it is not said anywhere.
After reading Handle Animal again “directing” the mount for it’s actual movement, not the performance of tricks is “no action”, for what that is worth. I gather this from the General Purposes of Combat Training and Riding both state that the animal is trained to bear the rider were “Bear the Rider” is not a trick.

From Handle Animal:

"Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. "
"Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay."

- Move - is not a trick, that's right. But:

"Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action."
"Action: Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action. "

It can be a trick or a task, but anyway it is Handling your mount, which requires a move action.

As I said, I play it like a free action, it's just that I can't see it as RAW.


So a trained mount can be ordered (by someone not riding it) to perform those "tricks" using Handle Animal.

That does not mean that a Handle Animal check is the only way to command it to carry out those actions.


Andrew Phillips wrote:
The RAW specifically prohibits the Full Attack Action.

Yoou are right. Don't know why is Full-Attack in that sentence. Maybe I was thinking about ranged or charge and did not explain that. In any case: the Full-Attack Action with a melee weapon is prohibited if your mount moves more than 5 foot.

Quote:
It also states that you “can only make a single melee attack” I take that to mean melee attack action. There is the restriction that ranged attacks take place when the mount has made half of its movement for the round. OF course none of the helps since Cleave allows you to “as a standard action, to make a single attack...” So our text should be similar to the mounted combat text about spell casting but should just refer to Standard Actions instead of single attack.

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."

Yes, I think we can agree that this sentence means more specifically:
"If your mount moves more than 5 feet you can't take a full attack action with a melee weapon". Just that should be enough, allowing cleave, bull rush, vital strike, etc. It's bending the RAW a bit, though.


Jabor wrote:

So a trained mount can be ordered (by someone not riding it) to perform those "tricks" using Handle Animal.

That does not mean that a Handle Animal check is the only way to command it to carry out those actions.

Sure. Just I don't know where in the rules it explains how to do it without that skill.

Ex. where does it say that you can order your mount to attack an enemy and the action needed for that order - not using Handle Animal?


angelroble wrote:
Jabor wrote:

So a trained mount can be ordered (by someone not riding it) to perform those "tricks" using Handle Animal.

That does not mean that a Handle Animal check is the only way to command it to carry out those actions.

Sure. Just I don't know where in the rules it explains how to do it without that skill.

Ex. where does it say that you can order your mount to attack an enemy and the action needed for that order - not using Handle Animal?

The Ride skill indicates that you can use it to control your mount in battle.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that as not requiring an additional Handle Animal check in order to do so.


Jabor wrote:

The Ride skill indicates that you can use it to control your mount in battle.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that as not requiring an additional Handle Animal check in order to do so.

Control Mount in Battle is referred to this paragraph in the combat section:

"Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn."
It is a move action that allows you to calm your frightened untrained mount so you can take your standard action. So yes, you don't need Handle Animal to control your mount. But "Control" doesn't mean you can order it anything you want, just calm it down, and it is useless with a trained mount. In any case, notice it is a move action.
The Leap ride maneuver also lets you order your mount to jump, and does not require handle animal or an action.
Now let's find the ride maneuver that lets you command your mount to attack, and which action you must take.


As The_Wraith pointed in other thread, this is from the Official FAQ 3.5.
"With the rules erratum that prohibits overruns as part of a charge, the Ride-By Attack feat is now nearly useless. You must use the charge action to use the Ride-By Attack feat, and that requires you to travel in a straight line toward your target. Using the example in the PH, this would appear to rather specifically mean along a line from your entire square (or squares if riding a horse or other mount with a space of 10 feet or greater), to the target square. Ride-By Attack allows you to continue moving along the straight line of the charge after your attack. This would have to mean that at some point you would enter the square (or squares) of the creature you attacked. (At least I cannot conceive of any other way it could be done). Since you cannot enter your foe’s space unless the creature is already dead, Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless if you can’t also overrun the foe. Some have suggested that you could charge in a manner that would not bring you through the target creature’s square (or squares). To do so, you would not be charging directly toward the target and likely not moving by the shortest route (also a charge requirement) or attacking it from the first possible square (another charge requirement). In any of these cases, you would be breaking the rules for a charge. Am I wrong about any of this?
No, you’ve got it about right.
When using the Ride-By attack feat, you must conduct your charge so that you move in a straight line toward the closest square from which it is possible to attack your chosen foe, so long as it is a square that allows you to attack and then continue on in the straight line of the charge. You still must attack your foe the moment you reach that square. (Although the feat description doesn’t say so, you and your mount also must move at least 5 feet after you make your attack to get the benefit of the feat.) This is a special rule for charging when using the Ride-By Attack feat. Note that the Flyby Attack feat (discussed in the previous question) does not require you to move in a straight line. You merely make a single move and take another standard action at some point during that move."

As the feat is working quite similar in PF, I will take this rule as written, unless I notice somtehing that does not fit.

Also, as an additional option if you want to go through your enemy's space while using Ride-By Attack, and using only PF material:

- Your mount takes a charge attack action and instead of attacking, makes an overrun maneuver as part of the charge if the movement goes through your enemy's square.
- You make your own attack as a normal charge.
- The Ride by Attack feat provides that you and your mount doesn't provoke AoO for the entire movement or the overrun (which would provoke an AoO because you would be leaving a threatened square to enter your enemy's square)
- You find if you can keep moving resolving the overrun maneuver, using your mount's CMB.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Slightly off topic but in the case of a Paladin's war mount. This is an extremely intelligent creature and should not require a move action to control. Just tell it where to attack as a swift action and let it do the work.

I wouldn't even put a bridle on the mount.


dulsin wrote:

Slightly off topic but in the case of a Paladin's war mount. This is an extremely intelligent creature and should not require a move action to control. Just tell it where to attack as a swift action and let it do the work.

I wouldn't even put a bridle on the mount.

In fact, the Paladin's Mount: "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6. "

Druid Animal Companions have a Link to its masters, so they can "handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action".

So yes, you are quite right (except it's not a swift action but a free one).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Question about mounts All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.