So, lets do an analysis here, because I must be missing something.
As the rules are right now, I can't understand why you WOULD NOT pick the Sorcerer.
Lets compare the two classes,and I'll show you why:
ADVANTAGES
Wizard:
- Uses INT as main stat -which means Skillpoints and Languages
- Can learn any number of spells
- Gets the next level of spell one level early
- Can spontaneously cast one spell per day via Item Bonding from a large list of spells.
- Gains 4 bonus feats that have a wide selection.
Sorcerer:
- Can spontaneously cast any spell of its respective level.
- Gains two more bloodline powers than the wizard gets specialist powers. Three if the Wizard isn't specialized.
- Gains an extra class skill - which can be arguably better than the INT bonus if you actually use that skill.
- Gains 9 more spells per day than a specialist wizard, 18 more than a universalist wizard.
- Gains 3 bonus feats that must be picked from bloodline feats - this essentially means the Wizard gets one more bonus feat than the sorcerer.
DISADVANTAGES
Wizard:
- Must penalize two schools to get specialist powers as well as bonus spells per day.
Sorcerer:
- Has a limited number of spells it can learn per level.
OTHER NOTES
With the Bloodline spells, The Sorcerer gets one more spell known per spell level by level 20.
Also, I counted as the Bloodline Arcane Power as equal to the Familiar/Item Bond the Wizard gets.
From this comparison, we can see that the Sorcerer automatically gets two innate powers from bloodline that he does not have to penalize any of his schools to get. He also gets more spells per day, a class skill, and all this while nearly getting as many feats as the Wizard.
So far, it looks to me like the Sorcerer is just the better choice if you aren't too inept at picking your "Spells Known".
Can someone explain to me why the final version looks like this? Shouldn't the Wizard have a little more to balance things out?
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So, lets do an analysis here, because I must be missing something.
As the rules are right now, I can't understand why you WOULD NOT pick the Sorcerer.
Lets compare the two classes,and I'll show you why:
ADVANTAGES
Wizard:
- Uses INT as main stat -which means Skillpoints and Languages
- Can learn any number of spells
- Gets the next level of spell one level early
- Can spontaneously cast one spell per day via Item Bonding from a large list of spells.
- Gains 4 bonus feats that have a wide selection.
All very valid reasons. Faster power is always preferable to slower power keep in mind.
Sorcerer:
- Can spontaneously cast any spell of its respective level.
- Gains two more bloodline powers than the wizard gets specialist powers. Three if the Wizard isn't specialized.
- Gains an extra class skill - which can be arguably better than the INT bonus if you actually use that skill.
- Gains 9 more spells per day than a specialist wizard, 18 more than a universalist wizard.
- Gains 3 bonus feats that must be picked from bloodline feats - this essentially means the Wizard gets one more bonus feat than the sorcerer.
Keep in mind that for the Wizard, its not an Int bonus, its a required stat. The Wizard makes up for the gap with more skill points, and hence more skills. The Sorcerer gets another one add to the class list, but unless you build specifically to make use of the skill it won't always work out. Sometimes the bonus spells are more appealing than the extra class skill, and that class skill sits on your sheet, with NO points what so ever in it.
DISADVANTAGES
Wizard:
- Must penalize two schools to get specialist powers as well as bonus spells per day.Sorcerer:
- Has a limited number of spells it can learn per level.
Sorcerers are more selective of skills, and know less spells period. A wizard isn't a "sorcerer that can afford to botch what spells he knows", a wizard is also the party artificer. A sorcerer would have to give up one of the ten feats he gets to be able to craft items, while a Wizard doesn't have such problems.
OTHER NOTES
With the Bloodline spells, The Sorcerer gets one more spell known per spell level by level 20.Also, I counted as the Bloodline Arcane Power as equal to the Familiar/Item Bond the Wizard gets.
From this comparison, we can see that the Sorcerer automatically gets two innate powers from bloodline that he does not have to penalize any of his schools to get. He also gets more spells per day, a class skill, and all this while nearly getting as many feats as the Wizard.
He might also become subject to effects that target people with such bloodlines. You forget that its a two way street, and if an assassin is particularly clever, a Sorceror with the draconic bloodline might swallow dragon's bane.
So far, it looks to me like the Sorcerer is just the better choice if you aren't too inept at picking your "Spells Known".
Can someone explain to me why the final version looks like this? Shouldn't the Wizard have a little more to balance things out?
No, in all honesty. Because the wizard had a lot to begin with. Sorcerors were the arcane red headed step child, and needed the boost in all honesty. The addition of bloodlines helps the flesh them out, and explain their sorcerous nature, even if its as cliched as "My mommy was a dragon!" or "I was destined to save the world!" Wizards will invariably have more to work with, and there is no situation in which a Sorceror has the perfect spell set for all situations. Its just impossible to do.
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They both are balanced, and here is the reason I say that. The key to both are the magic items they find/create/purchase (however your game handles the acquisition of magic) A wizard with a couple of wands can easily cast the quantity of spells that Sorcerer can. A Sorcerer with a good collection of scrolls can cover the variety the wizard can. A Sorcerer or a Wizard with some wands and some scrolls will look a lot a like. Yes the Sorcerer has some nifty bloodline stuff and the wizard has a few extra feats and school powers but really give me 2 character sheets the same build points and cash for both characters I bet I can make it so you couldn't tell which was the sorcerer and which was the wizard if you judge purely by what they do in a given situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but now the sorcerer is able to quicken their spells at first level and quicken their 9th level spells without any limits. The wizard just can't do that without magic items or other ways.
To me it seems to be a HUGE advantage. And it get worse when comparing school powers with bloodline powers, universalist wizard is by far the worst choice. He has no extra slot and no capstone ability.
I also don't understand why give sorcerer capstone ability that can immune to critical hit?
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Okay right now I have a 1st level Celestial Sorcerer and a 1st level Diviner. I just wanted to point out the differences I've noticed off the top of my head.
Sorcerer has CHA 18 and Diviner has INT 18
One, the Diviner has a lot more skill points (which she's mainly used to buff her knowledge skills).
The Sorcerer is more socially competent, but she does have at least Knowledge (Arcana) and a Profession skill. Also, the Heal skill. Healing seems to be her forte, actually (which makes sense for a Celestial Sorcerer).
Spells: The Sorcerer has two spells known to her: Mage Armor and Burning Hands (which I roleplay is heavenly fire). The Diviner has the same number of cantrips, but more 1st level spells in her spellbook (I think she has 6).
Special Abilities: The Sorcerer has heavenly fire which is a ranged touch that deals damage or heals. The Diviner gains a bonus to initiative and acts in the surprise round.
Roleplaying: Selena Devanholme has begun to feel more and more like Luna Lovecraft, so that's kind of the way she's going, while Zalania feels a little more aggressive, very sure of things. Selena's perspective of reality is skewed, while Zalania's is enhanced, to a point. Over time, I see Selena's understanding of the world gradually improve, and Zalania losing track of her identity the more she delves into secret knowledge.
Are they balanced? Shrug.
Are they fun? Yes!
Uh, how? I don't see any cheese that allows a sorcerer to apply a metamagic feat without using the appropriate higher-level spell slot. Quickening a 1st level spell would need a 5th level spell slot and he's no chance of quickening a 9th level spell withough going way into epic levels. An universalist wizard can do such a thing but it is hardly 'without limits'.
I guess you misread the bloodline arcana 'Metamagic Adept' power.
Otherwise: Comparing a wizard with a sorcerer is like comparing a Swiss Army Knife with a meat cleaver.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#quicken-spell
Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.
so this feat is an expection that spontaneous casters use higher level slot instead of increasing casting time?
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Here it is.
Pg 113
"Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full round action for a sorcerer or bard. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat."
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http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#quicken-spell
Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.
so this feat is an expection that spontaneous casters use higher level slot instead of increasing casting time?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Using Quicken Spell uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher than the level of the quickened spell regardless of whether you're casting it as a sorcerer or as a wizard. You cannot ever quicken a spell of 6th level or higher, because you never have access to 10th level spell slots. The reason for that last paragraph is to allow sorcerers to make use of Quicken Spell, which they could not do under 3.5 rules.
3.5 rules stated that applying a metamagic feat to a spell took a full-round action for sorcerers, and offered no leeway in this rule to allow them to use Quicken Spell. Pathfinder RPG does. All Metamagic Adept allows a sorcerer to do is apply a metamagic feat to a spell without increasing the spell's casting time, but still using a higher level spell slot. It does not interact with Quicken Spell, which the sorcerer is already allowed to cast without increasing its casting time. Neither Metamagic Adept not the text of Quicken Spell allows the sorcerer to avoid using a spell slot 4 levels higher than the spell to be affected to cast the quickened spell.
Here it is.
Pg 113
"Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full round action for a sorcerer or bard. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat."
Guess I just roll a natural 1 on knowledge(feat) check and miss the page 113.
Thanks for the reply, now I get it.:)
So, what some are you are saying is that while they look imbalanced, items balance them out.
Personally, I think that mundane items should only be taken into account when judging classes - maybe it's because I absolutely hate depending on the environment to determine my power.
In fact, in 3.5 ed, it was bad enough having to depend on the GM for what scrolls were available as a Wizard - and what made it worth playing a Wizard over the Sorcerer was the Bonus Feats.
I don't know about you, but with the Sorcerer having two extra innate powers (Some of which, as some pointed out, are insane compared to their wizard counterparts - like immunity to critical hits and most of them apply damage reduction) I can't see why I would ever pick a Wizard except for Role-playing reasons.
The Limit on spells is really not a big deal either, since there are really 4 level 9 spells I LOVE anyway - now that the Pathfinder Sorcerer GETS 4 at level 9 the limit on spells known is even less of a factor for me. (Heck, I think 3 bloodlines get Shapechange - and if you don't know how good THAT spell is, check out this Link: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-226959 )
Maybe everyone is thinking too low level. I don't know about you, but I always look at maximum potential when I'm picking a character, and particularly when I'm considering the balance between two classes.
I really think the Wizard could use at least ONE more Specialization power (And a capstone power for universalist) to at least make them equal in that respect.
The Limit on spells is really not a big deal either, since there are really 4 level 9 spells I LOVE anyway - now that the Pathfinder Sorcerer GETS 4 at level 9 the limit on spells known is even less of a factor for me. (Heck, I think 3 bloodlines get Shapechange - and if you don't know how good THAT spell is, check out this Link: Linkyfied )
Careful. Shapechange(PRD) doesn't work like it used to.
Wow... they nerfed the snot out of that.
Man that takes a lot of the fun out of that spell :P.
Sorry guys, I think I'm sticking to 3.5.
Shapechange is still functional, but why would they remove the Incorporal and Gaseous forms?
It was a spell that invited a lot of creativity, and with its new boundaries it's really just boring.
I'll admit, that it could have used a RAW nerf for those GMs who can't houserule for some reason, but why take all the flavor out?
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Shapechange is still functional, but why would they remove the Incorporal and Gaseous forms?
It was a spell that invited a lot of creativity, and with its new boundaries it's really just boring.
I'll admit, that it could have used a RAW nerf for those GMs who can't houserule for some reason, but why take all the flavor out?
Because in organized play, shape change meant that you could hose the DM of any situation. With the Pathfinder Society running around, they want fun fair and balanced game play as much as possible.
Add atop this the problem casters had with outdoing the melee strikers, and you begin to see a lot of the punch spells had stripped away in favor of bringing them back to earth.
The bottom line for me is that there are good reasons for a player to take a Sorcerer all the way to 20. Anyone who plays a wizard should bail out to a PRC ASAP.
The only thing a wizard has to look forward to after level 8 are the three bonus feats. I feel this is a weakness of the class because it just boils down to a gateway to the prestige classes and not a class in it's own right.
I am a wizard because it is easier to get to Loremaster with this class. There is no reason anyone should actually stay in it.
The bottom line for me is that there are good reasons for a player to take a Sorcerer all the way to 20. Anyone who plays a wizard should bail out to a PRC ASAP.
The only thing a wizard has to look forward to after level 8 are the three bonus feats. I feel this is a weakness of the class because it just boils down to a gateway to the prestige classes and not a class in it's own right.
I am a wizard because it is easier to get to Loremaster with this class. There is no reason anyone should actually stay in it.
I believe you are mistaken. All Wizaed School powers have a neat treat at 20th level, and all School abilities are tied to wizard levels, the Feats help a lot, and you may not see it now but when there are like 4 books describing only spells and the sorcerer is there with his 4 9th level spells know and the Wizard has 28, you will see the difference VERY clearly.
In another note, making Magic itens is WAY more doable now, and it's much easier for the wizard to make that.
Lets see three bonus feats that can be spent on item creation or metamagic, two areas the wizard excels in. I find that incentive enough. AThe party wizard can be an artificer, and keep eveybody supplied in the magical equipment they need, or he can be a great battlefield controller and go all out metamagic combine that with the meatmagic mastery school power and you have a wizard who is on steroids
If you really want to be a metamagic specialist you should stock up on the Sudden metamagic feats from complete Arcane. You get the use of a the feat on a whim once a day with no increase in the spell slot. The real prize being the ability to quicken and maximize a level 9 spell.
While you are at it grab a couple metamagic Rods. If I can replace and exceed the classes major bonus with a couple magic rods it is probably something I can skip.
Because in organized play, shape change meant that you could hose the DM of any situation. With the Pathfinder Society running around, they want fun fair and balanced game play as much as possible.
I have a hard time buying that reason, since (currently) PFS is capped at like 10th or 12th level.
They might have been planning for the future...
But more likely it was due to some (perhaps most) people calling out the brokeness of the spell, and if it makes PFS better/smoother in the process that is just a bonus.
That's fairly irrelevant for PFS play as all item creation feats are banned. (which is understandable given that they use a Living Greyhawk style of resource management in Adventure Records)In another note, making Magic itens is WAY more doable now, and it's much easier for the wizard to make that.
Sorry mate, I am not sue I'm following what u r saying. Banned? How so?
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Sorry mate, I am not sue I'm following what u r saying. Banned? How so?That's fairly irrelevant for PFS play as all item creation feats are banned. (which is understandable given that they use a Living Greyhawk style of resource management in Adventure Records)In another note, making Magic itens is WAY more doable now, and it's much easier for the wizard to make that.
In the Pathfinder Society (the organised play arm of Paizo), item creation feats are not allowed as they disrupt the item acquisition method too much. You cannot take item creation feats in organised play. Outside of that, have fun, but be aware you need a certain amount of DM cooperation to get the most out of item creation feats, especially at higher levels when it takes a lot longer to craft things.
Of course, we weren't talking about the Pathfinder Society, so it seems fairly tangential to the main discussion.
In the Pathfinder Society (the organised play arm of Paizo), item creation feats are not allowed as they disrupt the item acquisition method too much. You cannot take item creation feats in organised play. Outside of that, have fun, but be aware you need a certain amount of DM cooperation to get the most out of item creation feats, especially at higher levels when it takes a lot longer to craft things.
Of course, we weren't talking about the Pathfinder Society, so it seems fairly tangential to the main discussion.
So in organized play the Wizard's bonus feats are either meta-magic or meta-magic.
Are they allowed to use their starting scribe scroll feat, or is that banned also?
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The Limit on spells is really not a big deal either, since there are really 4 level 9 spells I LOVE anyway - now that the Pathfinder Sorcerer GETS 4 at level 9 the limit on spells known is even less of a factor for me. (Heck, I think 3 bloodlines get Shapechange - and if you don't know how good THAT spell is, check out this Link: Linkyfied )Careful. Shapechange(PRD) doesn't work like it used to.
Sticking with 3.5
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In the Pathfinder Society (the organised play arm of Paizo), item creation feats are not allowed as they disrupt the item acquisition method too much. You cannot take item creation feats in organised play. Outside of that, have fun, but be aware you need a certain amount of DM cooperation to get the most out of item creation feats, especially at higher levels when it takes a lot longer to craft things.
Of course, we weren't talking about the Pathfinder Society, so it seems fairly tangential to the main discussion.
So in organized play the Wizard's bonus feats are either meta-magic or meta-magic.
Are they allowed to use their starting scribe scroll feat, or is that banned also?
I believe they get to choose a different feat instead.
How often will you come across a metamagic rod in gameplay even a minor one. Very very rarely and you can bet it will be amongst the prized pieces of any enemy. And you wont be able to find them for sale no arcane spellcaster is that foolish. Well splatbook material is at Dm's discretion...The extra feats all classes have gotten and the bonus wizard feats can make an exceptionally strong casting wizard with the ability to fill up on metamagic feats and still have room for some good general spell casting feats like Combat casting, Spell Focus and Penetration...
Why are metamagic rods more rare than any other piece of magical gear? Thinking like that ... why would a wizard make magic armor and weapons? He can't use them and they might come back to hurt him.
A Minor Empower rod is a 9,000 gold item. The exact same cost as bracers of armor +3. So outside of DM's discretion what makes the Rod rarer than the +3 bracers of armor?
I find it surprising that the biggest complaint I'm seeing about pathfinder is, is that "OMG IT'S NO LONGER HORRIFICALLY GAME bREAKING?!?"
Seriously? Complaining because spike chain trip specialists no longer break the game? Because Rogues can't auto-tumble past all enemies? Because shapechange isn't all powerful?
Shapechange was *broken*. I'm sure it was fun for the wizard. As a DM did you like players not caring about the adventure, the monster or the challenges? As the other players, did you like losing all your spotlight time? (Why fight, the wizard can shapechange into something more powerful. Why be a thief, the wizard can change into something to be immune to or bypass traps. Why be a cleric, The wizard can be immune to damage/heal)
Explain to me how Shapechange maintaining it's functionality without removing the fun (or even the necessity of other players even being at the table). What's your reasoning here? One Argument for why one player should get to do everything, and dominate the whole game - even against the person taking the time to create the adventure.
Lets see true it is cheap, but you have to be at least 17th level to craft one even a minor one If such a powerful spell caster undertakes a project like that it will be for his own benefit or some really important greater cause. Who saids that arcane spellcasters forge weapons of power to be sold just like that. If he does they will be minor and relatively harmless towards him. Even a minor rod can prove a deadlier threat than a magic sword. The spellcaster can far better protect himself from a sword than have some modified spell surprise him in some way.
The craft rod feat is level 9. The CL of items are in the book for purposes of abjucating the effects of dispell magic that is not the requirement for creating them. Looking at Page 552 for rod creation and page 484 of the empower rod shows the requirements are: Craft Rod, Empower Spell and 4,500gp for a lesser rod.
Where in the rules does it say that rods are ultra rare items one step under an artifact? According to table 15-2 Random Magic Item Generation. Rods show up 10% of the time the exact same percentage as a magic weapon.
Now if you are running a game and think that Magic Rods are ultra powerful and will be left out of that troll's treasure list that is your privilege. Just don't try to tell us that is part of the rules.
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level). So the minimum CL is 17 that means the creator has to be a minimum of level 17 to get that CL...The Random magic item chart is to act as a guide or to easily generate treasure if the gm is feeling a little lazy. Most gms I have played with have always paid close attention to detail how cetain items appear in a horde especially if they are strongly magical.
This is not part of the Item Creation rules. If you think it is please tell me the page it appears on. For reference they start on page 548.
Look under Caster Level (CL) of item creation. I have it here on the prd. "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level)"
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
You are right since it the item is a CL17 the item creation DC goes up by +5 if you are only a level 9.
So to create a Major Rod of Quicken a level 9 caster would need the feats and be able to pull off a DC 27 spell craft check.
I can hit +20 skill checks by level 10. Even more if you get a bards help.
See, I didn't know any of that. I need to get the book...
Use the PRD - http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
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Look under Caster Level (CL) of item creation. I have it here on the prd. "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level)"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
You are right since it the item is a CL17 the item creation DC goes up by +5 if you are only a level 9.
So to create a Major Rod of Quicken a level 9 caster would need the feats and be able to pull off a DC 27 spell craft check.
I can hit +20 skill checks by level 10. Even more if you get a bards help.
Only weapons and armor require the caster to be of a specific level to make the item.
For example, under Weapons:
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Note that for Wondrous Items, Rods, etc. this requirement is not there. The crafter must be high enough of a caster to cast the requisite spells, but the CL listed with each item is not a requirement.
This was originally brought up in the 3.5 FAQ.
Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)
Pathfinder did not add in text noting that Rods, Wondrous Items, and the like require the user the be of a specific CL, so it is not part of the requirement.
The CL would still adjust the final DC, but the crafter does not need to be of that level to make the item. If you have the spells, the money, the time, and can make the DC 5 + CL check (DC 22 in the case of the rod above, even if you are level 9) then there are no other complications.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Only weapons and armor require the caster to be of a specific level to make the item.
For example, under Weapons:
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.Note that for Wondrous Items, Rods, etc. this requirement is not there. The crafter must be high...
Thanks for the clarification.
Still trying to figure out why the DC to create a minor rod is identical to creating a major rod.
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Wrong.. You can not bypass the minimum caster level to create a magic item by any means. Other prerequisites can be bypassed with the resulting DC, but the caster level is not one of them. So until you're a 17th level Wizard the only way you get a Major Rod of Quicken is to buy or steal one.
See my post above. Only weapons and armor have a minimum caster level. Rods (and other items like Wondrous Items and Rings) do not. See the crafting rules along with the Prerequisites for the item, but Caster Level is not a requirement.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
what happens when I don't read the rules.
See Nethys for a correction of that.
I suspect a major errata coming up to correct this. Certain items simply should NOT be made by low levels. I don't houserule much but this is going to be one of them.
Well the Craft Rod feat is caster level 9 so whether a specific rod requires a specific caster level or not 9th is the earliest you'll get it. Or were you thinking "low levels" means 9th level casters shouldn't be able to craft certain rods?