I've not played specialists (I like the versatility of the generalist) but my original point was to put the PF generalist wizard up against the PF paladin, rogue, fighter etc and ask 'is this in any way as cool a class to play?'
And for me the answer is 'no, not really'.
I hope GMs will be allowing wizards access to other 3.5 / PF spell resources because as written in the core book the wizard looks a bit dull.
??? What ??? The wizard is cool and fun for the same reason it's always been cool and fun. So it hasn't been given a bunch of new Paizofied clever class abilities every level, wizard has always gotten new clever class abilities, they are called spells. Spells are much more flexible and versatile than rogue tricks and rage powers, the tricks are powers were given to them so they could do interesting things... like the wizard does every game.
As a bonus now the wizard has an attack so they can be effective in low level combat which is where they have historically been weak. They also get unlimited cantrips which also helps boost their low level effectiveness. This applies to almost all wizards now.
Yes, but there are no new spells in the core book.
Wizards always had an attack at low levels. It was called a crossbow.
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Did anyone else notice that the title of this thread is a pun? =)
Nope, we completely missed that there old Bean.
Although I really don't see how it relates to the thread so much. :/
Wizards always had an attack at low levels. It was called a crossbow.
And it made us sad, for it was lame. No wizard I've ever read resorted to a crossbow because he was out of magic.
Did anyone else notice that the title of this thread is a pun? =)Nope, we completely missed that there old Bean.
Although I really don't see how it relates to the thread so much. :/
Wizards always had an attack at low levels. It was called a crossbow.And it made us sad, for it was lame. No wizard I've ever read resorted to a crossbow because he was out of magic.
Lame?
A light crossbow does d8 damage with a 19-20 critical threat, a heavy crossbow does d10.
Maybe it's why my low level wizards never had a problem with running out of spells.
I in fact would prefer if the Bonded Item had been toned down a bit, such as only recalling spells which you had prepared that day, rather than from your entire spellbook (woe be to those who oppose Communist Wizard cabals with communal spell-book libraries)
I thought that IS how the Bonded Item worked... only spells you have memorized/cast that day, just likea Pearl of Power. The Bonded Item is the one thing that makes me consider playing a Wizard over a Sorcerer though. If the Bonded Item does indeed work just by what you have in your book or on scrolls, then a Universalist Wizard could be quite powerful... and have tremendous upper body strength from carrying all those books.
As for Universalist, I have always played a Specialist Wizard when it was available. I didn't feel the loss of 2 schools of magic ever made me any less versitile. Some spells are just outright EVIL(Necromancy mainly) which has been a general no-no in most of my D&D groups and other spells(Enchantment) can become quite useless if you aren't geared(feats) towards using them specifically, due to saving throws, spell resistance, etc.
A light crossbow does d8 damage with a 19-20 critical threat, a heavy crossbow does d10.
Maybe it's why my low level wizards never had a problem with running out of spells.
I guess it all depends on how what your Intelligence versus Dexterity is. For a lot of wizards Hand of the Apprentice gives a +1-+3 advantage to hit which for a low level wizard is quite decent. You also threaten adjacent squares with your melee weapon which you don't do with the crossbow.
Heh... yet another way the specialists are better, their ranged touch attack 1d6+1/2 level rays are generally nicer :P
I in fact would prefer if the Bonded Item had been toned down a bit, such as only recalling spells which you had prepared that day, rather than from your entire spellbook (woe be to those who oppose Communist Wizard cabals with communal spell-book libraries)I thought that IS how the Bonded Item worked... only spells you have memorized/cast that day, just likea Pearl of Power. The Bonded Item is the one thing that makes me consider playing a Wizard over a Sorcerer though. If the Bonded Item does indeed work just by what you have in your book or on scrolls, then a Universalist Wizard could be quite powerful... and have tremendous upper body strength from carrying all those books.
Any spell in your spellbook, not on scrolls. So you can't use it to cast that Wish spell just because you saved all your money to buy one at 8th level on some such nonsense. You also cannot apply ant metamagic to it.
Did anyone else notice that the title of this thread is a pun? =)
"Wizards no longer coasting"
Is this, perchance, a reference to Wizards of the Coast?
No, I had missed that!
Check it out, just saw that ranged attack spells provoke and AoO even if you cast defensively. That's just plain mean! (I like)
Specialists?
They're called Sorcerers.
And in PF they're a very attractive proposition.
Though maybe that's because of the high CHA.
Check it out, just saw that ranged attack spells provoke and AoO even if you cast defensively. That's just plain mean! (I like)
I've seen debates over this in 3.5 (and in fact I think this might have been in the FAQ). It's great to know that it has been clarified!
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I do think it was a bad choice to allow specialists to cast spells from opposed schools off of scrolls and wands. I at least think that doing so should have a casting time of 1 round. That would make it better for universalists without kicking the specialists in the balls. You want to cast that spell from an opposed school from a scroll, better not be casting it next to a fighter. That makes it actually better to prepare the spell and thus loose the extra spellslot.
I do think it was a bad choice to allow specialists to cast spells from opposed schools off of scrolls and wands.
Maybe but it casting from scrolls or wands is highly ineffective compared to casting from memory, however if its an opposed school it does cost twice as much effort, while you can ask for 2 charges per casting on a wand you cant do the same for scrolls (increased cast time maybe?)
Also it means that the wizard is forced to find these items in treasure or pay for their manufacture.
Personally I always thought the specialist classes should have been prestige classes. It made sense that you start as a generalist and either continue or wonder off into a specialty. I worked on the prestige classes at one point. It was interesting. Have to find the material, dust it off and "Pathfinderize" it... Thoughts / ideas?
Specialists?
They're called Sorcerers.
And in PF they're a very attractive proposition.
Though maybe that's because of the high CHA.
The limitation on the sorcerer lists is painful when you had your heart set on the breadth of a generalists spell book. If you are going to settle for a sorcerer don't forget that they are the Use Magic Device gods now. Grab some cure scrolls and wands!
Aberrant Bloodline -- creepy but good!
Specialists?
They're called Sorcerers.
And in PF they're a very attractive proposition.
Though maybe that's because of the high CHA.
The limitation on the sorcerer lists is painful when you had your heart set on the breadth of a generalists spell book. If you are going to settle for a sorcerer don't forget that they are the Use Magic Device gods now. Grab some cure scrolls and wands!
Aberrant Bloodline -- creepy but good!
Aberrant Bloodline just begs (pleads, and kills for in fact) going into arcane trickster.
10 foot reach on your spells while flanking? Yes please! HELLO CHILL TOUCH!
Personally I always thought the specialist classes should have been prestige classes. It made sense that you start as a generalist and either continue or wonder off into a specialty. I worked on the prestige classes at one point. It was interesting. Have to find the material, dust it off and "Pathfinderize" it... Thoughts / ideas?
Master Specialists in the Complete Mage.
Aberrant Bloodline just begs (pleads, and kills for in fact) going into arcane trickster.
10 foot reach on your spells while flanking? Yes please! HELLO CHILL TOUCH!
Mystic Theurge... then you can be smacking that healing touch all over the place. Plus harm, inflict wounds, blindness...
My Universalist is a Necromancer, just don't tell him!
I do think there's a problem with the Wizard, but it's that specialist and universalist should be in different classes. If you want to play a Wizard, suck and up and play a specialist.
The limitation on the sorcerer lists is painful when you had your heart set on the breadth of a generalists spell book. If you are going to settle for a sorcerer don't forget that they are the Use Magic Device gods now. Grab some cure scrolls and wands!Umm... so play a generalist. I don't get the problem. They are more powerful than they were in 3.5. Wizards are still full of win.
Bottom line is the Wizard class has nothing worth staying for. If you have your heart set on a Generalist wizard .. then do it. Just have an exit strategy get into a PRC ASAP. The Eldrich Knight, Arcane Trickster, or Loremaster.
The Loremaster is probably the best choice for a pure Wizard. You can get into it after 7 levels but getting the 8th level of the Universalist is probably a good idea for some free metamagic use.
My largest issue is isn't so much that the wizard on the whole is underpowered (I don't think it is) but rather that there is once again, for the univeralist and many of the schools, virtually no reason to say in it past 6th or 8th level if PrCs are available (especially if you allow some of the 3.5 splatbooks).
As I understood it part of the Pathfinder mission statement was to make going 20 levels in a class appealing, but I just don't see it. The only capstones I really see as terribly useful anymore are Divination (which should be changed back to the Beta Power) for winning initiative every time and laying down battlefield control, or conjuration so you can have a trumpet archon at your beck and call.
I am very happy that the univeralists lost their bonus spell slots, and that the specialists are back to their bonus spells, but... overall I'm rather disappointed and will be noticeably house ruling the wizard to make it more appealing 1-20.
My largest issue is isn't so much that the wizard on the whole is underpowered (I don't think it is) but rather that there is once again, for the univeralist and many of the schools, virtually no reason to say in it past 6th or 8th level if PrCs are available (especially if you allow some of the 3.5 splatbooks).
Maybe this is the whole point of the generalist? Specialists are the wizards who are it in the long haul, generalists are there for people who want to enter PrCs. Kind of makes sense in a way. To be honest I'm not sure. I definitely think there is a gap in power between the generalist and the specialists. The metamagic thing is nice and if you stay in until 10th level you get enough to make it useful but can still PrC.
Honestly I still really like that metamagic mastery.
Honestly I still really like that metamagic mastery.
Me to!
My CotCT Wizard (Konrad Mandal) has only one Metamagic Feat (Extend Spell) - He is more focus on Item Creation.
Still, with the Metamagic Mastery, He will not have to worry about his spells expiring. :)
Honestly I still really like that metamagic mastery.
I do too but it is a level 8 power. There is no reason to stay in the class after that.
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Honestly I still really like that metamagic mastery.I do too but it is a level 8 power. There is no reason to stay in the class after that.
Actually there is, since now you only get one or two uses at eigth level it actually behooves you to stay in it. You want a wizard that's gonna PrC out look at the enchantment school. The first level power is a pathetic joke, the 8th level power is decent, and the 20th level power is a joke. I know I would never stay in it past eigth level. Ooh you mean if I stay in it 20 levels then if I ever get targeted by an enchantment spell it'll bounce back if I make the save. Whooopie, something that maybe will happen once yay great capstone power. And the 1st level ability that I can't think of ever using because it will fail 90% of the time. YAY! not to mention that it's the most metagamed power ever!
Ok I can stay in the class and be able to do the Metamagic trick another 5 times over 20 levels or.....
Take the Loremaster PRC and gain an additional 5 feats, 4 skills per level, bardic knowlege, and a free legend lore.
I know which one I will go with.
Ok I can stay in the class and be able to do the Metamagic trick another 5 times over 20 levels or.....
Take the Loremaster PRC and gain an additional 5 feats, 4 skills per level, bardic knowlege, and a free legend lore.
I know which one I will go with.
Um, the most feats you can get out of loremaster is two. Toughness and one other. You can only choose a given secret once. This is, coincidentally, the same number of bonus feats as you lose by not taking ten levels of wizard.
Um, the most feats you can get out of loremaster is two. Toughness and one other. You can only choose a given secret once. This is, coincidentally, the same number of bonus feats as you lose by not taking ten levels of wizard.Ok I can stay in the class and be able to do the Metamagic trick another 5 times over 20 levels or.....
Take the Loremaster PRC and gain an additional 5 feats, 4 skills per level, bardic knowlege, and a free legend lore.
I know which one I will go with.
True, but three of the "secrets" you get are at +2 bonus to Fortitude, to Reflex, and to Willpower ... kind of like the Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will feats.
Um, the most feats you can get out of loremaster is two. Toughness and one other. You can only choose a given secret once. This is, coincidentally, the same number of bonus feats as you lose by not taking ten levels of wizard.
I count the secrets as being equivalent to a feat.
Ok I can't take another feat so I will take a +1 dodge bonus, +2 Reflex saves, +2 Fort Saves. Now since those are not Feats I can take the feat equivalence if I choose. Dodge, Lightning Reflexes and Great fortitude later and you have some nice saves.
Fair enough points. I'd still take the free metamagic.
Um, the most feats you can get out of loremaster is two. Toughness and one other. You can only choose a given secret once. This is, coincidentally, the same number of bonus feats as you lose by not taking ten levels of wizard.I count the secrets as being equivalent to a feat.
Ok I can't take another feat so I will take a +1 dodge bonus, +2 Reflex saves, +2 Fort Saves. Now since those are not Feats I can take the feat equivalence if I choose. Dodge, Lightning Reflexes and Great fortitude later and you have some nice saves.
You're right! I had forgotten about Dodge. (But, then I don't tend to think much about the Crysler Group LLC in general.)
You're right! I had forgotten about Dodge. (But, then I don't tend to think much about the Crysler Group LLC in general.)
I was realy hopping for the Cadillac feat but that isn't on the wizard list.
Honestly I still really like that metamagic mastery.I do too but it is a level 8 power. There is no reason to stay in the class after that.
MORE USES!
As I posted above, the Sudden X feats are a better option if you want to make the most of metamagic.
Backtracking a little bit here, but if you bring splatbooks into the equation there are suddenly better alternatives to a great many things.
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As I posted above, the Sudden X feats are a better option if you want to make the most of metamagic.Backtracking a little bit here, but if you bring splatbooks into the equation there are suddenly better alternatives to a great many things.
Seriously I just told a player he couldn't take the feat mage slayer, because it can be gotten earlier and is way better in every way than disruptive feat. And I'm all for using feats that are from 3.5 splatbooks which is why he brought it to me. But in the same way I said no to the mage slayer feat I would say yes to sudden feats but add the houserule that they can't be used to metamagic a spell higher than you are capable of casting. Suddenly those feats aren't a "better" option, just a way to do it before eighth level or if you aren't a universalist. You have your backwards compatability and the universalist school is suddenly a nice option again cause it gets the sudden feats for "free"
@LKL: That sounds like what I call "the sane approach" :-)
My largest issue is isn't so much that the wizard on the whole is underpowered (I don't think it is) but rather that there is once again, for the univeralist and many of the schools, virtually no reason to say in it past 6th or 8th level if PrCs are available (especially if you allow some of the 3.5 splatbooks).Maybe this is the whole point of the generalist? Specialists are the wizards who are it in the long haul, generalists are there for people who want to enter PrCs. Kind of makes sense in a way. To be honest I'm not sure. I definitely think there is a gap in power between the generalist and the specialists. The metamagic thing is nice and if you stay in until 10th level you get enough to make it useful but can still PrC.
PF was supposed to make every level worthwhile. As soon as PrCs start looking not only attractive but downright sensible there's a problem with the base class.
That would make sense if you believe there is no reason to stay in Generalist past 6th or 8th level.
I believe some players actually look forward to the scaling usage of spontaneous free Metamagic, though.
Seriously, this thread is hardly in the realm of "productive" anymore.
If you want to share house-rules, or ponder the reason behind the Final's design choices, fine,
but I don't see how passing judgement on whether the Final Rules are a "failure" helps anybody.
PF was supposed to make every level worthwhile. As soon as PrCs start looking not only attractive but downright sensible there's a problem with the base class.
But what about those people who know, from the get go, they want a PrC?
The generalist wizard is their option to not have to feel like they are making a huge sacrifice to play the kind of character they want. Thats kinda my take on it.
PF was supposed to make every level worthwhile. As soon as PrCs start looking not only attractive but downright sensible there's a problem with the base class.
Or a problem with the prestige class. Two sides to that issue.