Spiked Armor Question


Rules Questions


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OK, first, between 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder Beta and now Pathfinder Core Rulebook I can't keep track of rules changes but I have a question about Spiked Armor in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

1. Can it be used as an offhand weapon with a two-handed weapon?
2. Can you use your offhand to carry something (such as a potion) while wielding a weapon in your primary hand (like a battle axe) and using the armor spikes as an offhand weapon.


Gorum wrote:

OK, first, between 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder Beta and now Pathfinder Core Rulebook I can't keep track of rules changes but I have a question about Spiked Armor in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

1. Can it be used as an offhand weapon with a two-handed weapon?
2. Can you use your offhand to carry something (such as a potion) while wielding a weapon in your primary hand (like a battle axe) and using the armor spikes as an offhand weapon.

From the combat section, the description of armor spikes, and the wording on Two Weapon Fighting the answers to these questions are unclear to me.

Personally, I would probably allow both in my game but I can't say what the intent is in PFRPG.

Liberty's Edge

I officially don't like spiked armor because I think it reeks of munchkinism and just rubs me the wrong way (you ever been rubbed by spiked armor? It hurts, man!). Thus, I have no extensive knowledge about the specific rules in regards to it.

So my advice? Do what seems realistic. If you can't visually imagine the physical mechanics of how you're gonna make that attack happen, it probably shouldn't happen.

If you can describe it visually though, go for it! That's how I'd treat a player wanting to do such a thing in a game I'm running at least.


The problem here is that I could easily go either way on allowing or disallowing, both sides present valid arguments. I was just curious as to what the design intentions were.


Gorum wrote:
The problem here is that I could easily go either way on allowing or disallowing, both sides present valid arguments. I was just curious as to what the design intentions were.

I've looked at all the rules and the bottom line answer is 1. Yes, 2. Yes

Armor spikes are Light Weapons. Light weapons can be used as 'off-hand' attacks. The description for Armor spikes says they can deal damage in a separate attack, like any other light weapon.

Page 182 in PF Core rules (also carried over from 3.5 rules) states that an unarmed attack is striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts. This establishes a precedent that arms are not the only limbs allowed for non-Monks to cause damage. Kneeing someone or elbowing someone with your spiked armor would be a similar maneuver.


Arbitus wrote:
1. Yes, 2. Yes

Agreed.

Scarab Sages

Gorum wrote:

OK, first, between 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder Beta and now Pathfinder Core Rulebook I can't keep track of rules changes but I have a question about Spiked Armor in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

1. Can it be used as an offhand weapon with a two-handed weapon?
2. Can you use your offhand to carry something (such as a potion) while wielding a weapon in your primary hand (like a battle axe) and using the armor spikes as an offhand weapon.

The text in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook has not changed much from 3.5 concerning this, so I would go with the ruling from then.

1. Yes, it can. Likely with the two-handed weapon as your primary weapon and the armor spikes as your off-hand weapon. You could switch them but then you would not benefit from having a light weapon in your off hand.
2. Yes.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys


Nethys wrote:
Gorum wrote:

OK, first, between 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder Beta and now Pathfinder Core Rulebook I can't keep track of rules changes but I have a question about Spiked Armor in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

1. Can it be used as an offhand weapon with a two-handed weapon?
2. Can you use your offhand to carry something (such as a potion) while wielding a weapon in your primary hand (like a battle axe) and using the armor spikes as an offhand weapon.

The text in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook has not changed much from 3.5 concerning this, so I would go with the ruling from then.

1. Yes, it can. Likely with the two-handed weapon as your primary weapon and the armor spikes as your off-hand weapon. You could switch them but then you would not benefit from having a light weapon in your off hand.
2. Yes.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

I suggest this (house) rule for this case: the Two-Handed weapon does not gain the bonuses from being Two-Handed in a full-round where you also use the Spiked Armor as a Light Weapon (Power Attack = 2:1 instead of 3:1, Strength Bonus x1 instead of x1.5 and so on)

Motivations:

- not to allow for 'squeezing' extra damage from such a build - allowing it without any kind of change would give you a Two-Weapon Fighting combo with a total ratio of Power Attack 4:1 (3:1 from THW and 1:1 from Spiked Armor) instead of maximum 3:1 of regular Two-Weapon Fighting (2:1 from One-Handed Weapon and 1:1 from Light Weapon) and a Strength ratio of x2 (x1.5 from THW and x0.5 from Spiked Armor) instead of regular TWF (x1 from One-Handed and x0.5 from Light Weapon)

Precedents:

- creatures with natural attacks already work in the way I'm suggesting; if they have only a single attack (Slam, Bite...) the weapon is considered 'Two-Handed' (Str x1,5 , and I strongly believe with the new rules Power Attack ratio 3:1 as well), while creatures with multiple attacks (like Bite, Claw, Claw) use the Primary attack(s)at Str x1 and Secondary attack(s) at Str x0.5 (and I suspect the ratio from Power Attack is 2:1 and 1:1, respectively)

Plus, since the Overhand Chop feat chain is no more, there would be no huge penalties on a Two-Handed weapon which is 'not considered' Two-Handed for the current round.

Just my 2c.

Grand Lodge

not sure anyone is reading while I dredge this from the archive, but what about Armor Spikes and a shield?

If the fighter made an off-hand attack with armor spikes would he retain the shield ac bonus?

If it didn't 1) reek of spite 2) punish everyone but the heavy armor wearing, shield bearing spiky tank, I would just give every foe under the sun armor spikes.


Galnörag wrote:

not sure anyone is reading while I dredge this from the archive, but what about Armor Spikes and a shield?

If the fighter made an off-hand attack with armor spikes would he retain the shield ac bonus?

Yes.

Galnörag wrote:
If it didn't 1) reek of spite 2) punish everyone but the heavy armor wearing, shield bearing spiky tank, I would just give every foe under the sun armor spikes.

I don't think two-weapon fighting is all that great, so it doesn't seem like a huge advantage to me. YMMV.

Grand Lodge

hogarth wrote:
Galnörag wrote:

not sure anyone is reading while I dredge this from the archive, but what about Armor Spikes and a shield?

If the fighter made an off-hand attack with armor spikes would he retain the shield ac bonus?

Yes.

Galnörag wrote:
If it didn't 1) reek of spite 2) punish everyone but the heavy armor wearing, shield bearing spiky tank, I would just give every foe under the sun armor spikes.
I don't think two-weapon fighting is all that great, so it doesn't seem like a huge advantage to me. YMMV.

Well when you get all the benefits of two weapon fighting and none of the AC drawbacks of not having a shield it seems a little unfair.


Galnörag wrote:


Well when you get all the benefits of two weapon fighting and none of the AC drawbacks of not having a shield it seems a little unfair.

I agree that TWF using armor spikes (combined with a two-handed weapon or weapon+shield) is better than TWF using a weapon in each hand.

Grand Lodge

Can a warrior use three-weapon-fighting as it were with Sword, off-hand, and spikes, or Sword, Shield Bash, Spikes?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The vast majority of games I've played in house-rule armor spikes to have no reach. As such, they're still quite effective as an anti-grappler weapon but not so effective in a stand-up fight as you'd have to enter your opponent's square to use them (thus usually giving them an AoO).


Galnörag wrote:
Can a warrior use three-weapon-fighting as it were with Sword, off-hand, and spikes, or Sword, Shield Bash, Spikes?

I would say no. You can't feasibly strike with primary weapon, offhand weapon, and then an elbow spike, getting bonus attacks. You can, however, mix and match your offhand weapon and your body spikes as desired through your attack.

If you allow three weapon fighting, then my monk is going to ask for extra attacks for his 9 body parts he normally hits with (fists, feet, knees, elbows, head), and is going to conceive a way to get a bite attack somewhere in there.

Grand Lodge

SlimGauge wrote:
The vast majority of games I've played in house-rule armor spikes to have no reach. As such, they're still quite effective as an anti-grappler weapon but not so effective in a stand-up fight as you'd have to enter your opponent's square to use them (thus usually giving them an AoO).

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be punitive at this point, was hoping I was just misreading the rules.

Sovereign Court

SlimGauge wrote:
The vast majority of games I've played in house-rule armor spikes to have no reach. As such, they're still quite effective as an anti-grappler weapon but not so effective in a stand-up fight as you'd have to enter your opponent's square to use them (thus usually giving them an AoO).

That's exactly the rule I use with the caveat that if you have the Imp. Unarmed strike feat then it just counts as increased damage for unarmed strikes.

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