Questions for Americans: Socialised Health Care


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Big Tex wrote:
Just remember, pardners, the eyes of Texas are upon you...

EEEEEK!

*slap*

PERVERT!


The term yore lookin' fer, Ma'am, is "masher".

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Garydee wrote:
You need a shotgun in your hands when you're saying that in order to be considered a true Texan.

For me he doesn't. My father is a huge fan of the Western Genre so I kinda grew up with (fictional) texan heroes. Most of them seemed to shoot first and talk later, as I remember. So I guess Texas has become a bit more civilized by now. Which is good for the german health care system as it don't need to pay to get all those pellets out of my body.

And no need to worry about us. We've become too lazy to join the axis of evil once again. I blame Burger King.

Scarab Sages

The big problem I have with a socialized health care system is how much more am I going to pay in taxes? Where is $800 billion a year going to coming from? I pay $800 a month now. Will I be paying $800 a month more in taxes to take it's place? If so, that's a fair trade.

So far NOT ONE of my elected officials (Denver, Colorado) has been able to answer my question.


WormysQueue wrote:
And no need to worry about us. We've become too lazy to join the axis of evil once again.

Oder wir sind zu Texas ausgewandert... (Ich wurde in Wuerzburg geboren.)


Lots of Germans and Czechs in the South and the Hill country...


k3ndawg wrote:

The big problem I have with a socialized health care system is how much more am I going to pay in taxes? Where is $800 billion a year going to coming from? I pay $800 a month now. Will I be paying $800 a month more in taxes to take it's place? If so, that's a fair trade.

So far NOT ONE of my elected officials (Denver, Colorado) has been able to answer my question.

A large part of that would probably be the fact that there isn't actually a bill for them to vote on yet. It's still being worked out and isn't near being complete.

It's kind of funny to hear people like Sarah Palin run off at the mouth saying how it's going to work. I want to know who their psychic is since there isn't even a bill to read yet!


Krauts as far as the eye kin see...


Jerry!

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
k3ndawg wrote:

The big problem I have with a socialized health care system is how much more am I going to pay in taxes? Where is $800 billion a year going to coming from? I pay $800 a month now. Will I be paying $800 a month more in taxes to take it's place? If so, that's a fair trade.

So far NOT ONE of my elected officials (Denver, Colorado) has been able to answer my question.

No idea how accurate those numbers are but I did some reading today and found an interesting article summarizing a comparative study done by the Commonwealth Fund: Link

If the numbers shown there are right that means that the average U.S. citizen pays double the money than a U.K. or German citizen resulting in a much worse medical treatment. Now I'm not in the position to make any claim what's good for other countries or not but there seems to be room for improvements.

@Kirth: Hallo, Landsmann. :)


WormysQueue wrote:
@Kirth: Hallo, Landsmann. :)

Guten Abend, mein Bruder!


ok My two cents worth. I have to agree with the earlier posts.
I fear socialized medicine because it will not work in this country. Everyone can say "oh look at XYZ country" but they aren't us.
Last time I checked Britain or Canada didn't have 45 MILLION illegals in their countries draining their resources to the limit. Let me caveat that by saying I am in no way racist I simply think that the difference between legal and Illegal immigration is profound.

Two I am a hard working self sufficient person that has made sacrifices and am now doing better than I ever have in my life because I worked my ass off, Dont tell me I have to pay for somebodies sick cancer stricken vegetable of a kid because everybody else is suppose to be a part of some global hippie village crap. I had to bust my tail to get my education and work in related fields to get the experience I needed to get my job and NOW all my efforts have to go and support a bunch of drug addicted mentally messed up deformed crack babies. Dont think I'm the only one that feels this way check out the British star and read the comments about the 17 year old that had to have a pace maker because he OD'd on a 60 line a day coke habit. They were like let him die and were pissed that they are having to pay for idiots like that.

Yes I'm sure that allot of folks will say that I'm cruel or that I'm this, that or the other but what I really am is tired of having to pay 17% in taxes because I'm unmarried, no kids and have no reason to change that but yet my buddy that has a wife and 4 kids( only 2 are his) as well as a baby momma( one night stand) and one other kid gets back MORE money than he paid in in taxes and I get squat.
Under the new social regime that will be universal health care I can only see it getting worse.

Sovereign Court

Quote:
Last time I checked Britain or Canada didn't have 45 MILLION illegals in their countries draining their resources to the limit. Let me caveat that by saying I am in no way racist I simply think that the difference between legal and Illegal immigration is profound.

You already are supporting those illegal immigrants, through higher premiums on your Health Insurance. Why is that? Because anyone going to an Emergency Room in the US gets treated, regardless of ability to pay. Which of course includes illegal immigrants (and anyone else without insurance, for that matter)

Obama's current plan, to my eyes, is to have mandatory health insurance, and offer a public plan that everyone can sign into. As most health insurance is offered through employers, then any illegal immigrant working for any company would have to pay into the system. This is a good thing.

So if you're worried about having to support illegal immigrants, you should support Obama's plan, as that will make them support the system themselves, if they want to take part in it.


Steven Tindall wrote:

Last time I checked Britain or Canada didn't have 45 MILLION illegals in their countries draining their resources to the limit. ...

... but yet my buddy that has a wife and 4 kids( only 2 are his) as well as a baby momma( one night stand) and one other kid gets back MORE money than he paid in in taxes and I get squat.
Under the new social regime that will be universal health care I can only see it getting worse.

This is exactly why we DON'T want the illegals to be legal. Most of them wouldn't be making substantially more and so if they were on the books, we'd have to treat them like your buddy. That is we'd pay them money. This way they don't pay income tax that we'd have to give back to them plus extra, but they do pay things like sales and gas taxes and such, and that stays in the government's pockets. So by keeping them illegal, we are actually getting more money from them than we would if they were legal. Why do you think immigration reform on both sides never really gets done? It isn't in the country's interest to do it.


Uzzy wrote:
Obama's current plan, to my eyes, is to have mandatory health insurance, and offer a public plan that everyone can sign into. As most health insurance is offered through employers, then any illegal immigrant working for any company would have to pay into the system. This is a good thing.

Please tell me you are not that naive. They are already required by law to pay income tax. Do they? Nope. You think they are going to pay health insurance. Please pass the dutchie on the left hand side, I want a hit.

Sovereign Court

pres man wrote:
Uzzy wrote:
Obama's current plan, to my eyes, is to have mandatory health insurance, and offer a public plan that everyone can sign into. As most health insurance is offered through employers, then any illegal immigrant working for any company would have to pay into the system. This is a good thing.
Please tell me you are not that naive. They are already required by law to pay income tax. Do they? Nope. You think they are going to pay health insurance. Please pass the dutchie on the left hand side, I want a hit.

Your implication that I take drugs is amusing, but irrelevant.

If an Illegal Immigrant works, then they will be paid in two ways. Through cash in hand, or through into a bank account. With Obama's plan, the employer would have to sign people up into a Health Insurance system, with that money being taken directly out of someone's paypacket.

Now, if you assume that all 45 million illegal immigrants are paid cash in hand, then none would be put into the Health Insurance system. But if some have a payroll, they would contribute through payroll taxes. According to this article in the NYT, in 2005 Illegal Immigrants in the US (which seem to number around 12 million, by the way, but it's irrelevant to the point) already contribute around $7 Billion to the US Social Security fund through payroll taxes. If Health Insurance were funded through payroll taxes, which is the way it'd make sense, then that too would have contributions paid into it.

Sure, they wouldn't be paying income tax, but they'd pay for Health Insurance.


Steven Tindall wrote:
Last time I checked Britain or Canada didn't have 45 MILLION illegals in their countries draining their resources to the limit.

Look up the burden on the health care system from illegals: you'll find numbers up to $2,000,000,000/year (that one from Newsmax, April 21, 2008, "Healthcare Costs for Illegals are Staggering.") That's an insane amount of money! But then look up the numbers for the costs of preventable diabetes and obesity, from natural-born citizens too lazy to walk next door: you find numbers starting at $78,500,000,000/year (Centers for Disease Control) in the U.S. -- almost 40 times the cost from all the illegals put together. Don't believe me; please look up the numbers yourself, using any sources you'd care to.

I came here LEGALLY, and it's sure tempting for me to blame illegals for everything. But I figure we need to attend to the beam in our own eye, before worrying about the mote in our neighbors'.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Abraham spalding wrote:

A large part of that would probably be the fact that there isn't actually a bill for them to vote on yet. It's still being worked out and isn't near being complete.

It's kind of funny to hear people like Sarah Palin run off at the mouth saying how it's going to work. I want to know who their psychic is since there isn't even a bill to read yet!

I don't know about that I'm working my way through reading the House Bill.

The Senate has I believe four bills in the works. . .not ready yet but since our elected officials are pulling out all the stops to tell us what isn't in the bills they should be accountable and able to honestly deliver answers.

Scarab Sages

I was born in the US and have a French Carte de Sejour due to marriage. I spent 20 years in France before returning to the States in '04 to buy a restaurant. The French medical system is (IMHO)far superior. I never had to wait for treatment, could afford medication and paid no more taxes over there than here (if you count federal, state, county, and city + sales combined). Items cost more though; still, I'd rather pay a bit more for a computer than be bankrupt because I developed a catastrophic illness.

Sovereign Court

Steven Tindall wrote:
Last time I checked Britain or Canada didn't have 45 MILLION illegals in their countries draining their resources to the limit.

While it's true that we don't have that many illegals in our country (or that many people, at all :P), how would this be an issue? As it stands, if you're not a Canadian citizen (or you don't have legal immigration status), you don't get free health care. You have to pay.

So illegal immigrants probably wouldn't qualify for the free health care, and wouldn't be a burden on this new system.

I'm just conjecturing here, but couldn't this actually help the U.S. Immigration situation? I feel like this would encourage illegal immigrants to become citizens or 'legal' immigrants so that they can benefit from the health care.

Scarab Sages

To be fair, we spend a lot more on our military than France does, so I don't know if we can balance all that out under the current tax structure.


Nameless wrote:

As it stands, if you're not a Canadian citizen (or you don't have legal immigration status), you don't get free health care. You have to pay.

So illegal immigrants probably wouldn't qualify for the free health care, and wouldn't be a burden on this new system.

I'm just conjecturing here, but couldn't this actually help the U.S. Immigration situation? I feel like this would encourage illegal immigrants to become citizens or 'legal' immigrants so that they can benefit from the health care.

So if an illegal immigrant showed up in a Canadian ER, they would be asked to pay, and if they couldn't, you'd just let them die? Because that is what it looks like you are saying. I'm sure that a country as enlightened as Canada would not do something like that. Would they?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Nameless wrote:
I'm just conjecturing here, but couldn't this actually help the U.S. Immigration situation? I feel like this would encourage illegal immigrants to become citizens or 'legal' immigrants so that they can benefit from the health care.

"I'd like to treat you Mr. Smith but you appear to be unconscious and unable to prove citizenship, so unless you come to on your own and can prove you're here legally I'm afraid we'll have to let you die."

I jest because no one wants to live in that world.

I'm not certain that making the illegals legal would help defer the cost enough anyway. Have you seen what we're doing to our dollar? Even if this is the perfect medical system doing it now just seems like economic suicide.

Although given the parallel Amnesty debate we may be discussing your basic point soon enough.


hazel monday wrote:
Joe Sixpack wrote:

Honestly, there are lots of people who do call the education system socialist because it is funded by tax money.

Well, I would like to meet one of them, because I've never met anyone who honestly held that opinion before. Where can I find one of these people?

Do they hang around at militia meetings with birthers & flat-earthers?

Raises hand. I'm such a person. My family choses to homeschool our two children. We pay for it all on our own on top of the ~$8k/year in property taxes that mostly go to state-run education. Why? Because the State of GA is LAST in the nation in most rankings! I grew up in that system & saw how crappy it was (and it's much worse now! I've tutored kids 10 years behind me, it's truly remarkable how little they are expected to learn/know).

My kids will never darken the door of a public school while I am alive.

And before the accusations fly, they are getting first rate education - my 8yo daughter is doing math that I didn't see until 7th grade (who did 15 digit addition/subtraction in 2nd grade, Hmm?); she's studied dinosaurs, history of China, Ancient Rome, and the Dark Ages. And she's just about to go into 3rd grade where she'll start US History. She's learning the guitar and is fascinated by LEGO Mindstorms.

Is she a super-learner? Yes....just like 99% of all kids are before the system sucks it out of them!

/thread-jack. Hazel, contact me off-thread if you wish to discuss further.

I detest all of the "hidden" taxes that drain from our paychecks in the hopes we won't notice. I fully support "The FairTax" which would remove all Federal taxes currently enacted & replace them with a far more simple/loophole-free consumption tax. Then those that have more (or at least those that spend more) pay the greater share of taxes. It also encourages savings, because it's not taxed until the money is spent. I encourage all to review The FairTax - it's configured to handle those near/below the proverty level by giving "prebates" monthly to all citizens (thus illegals that buy things pay into the system, but don't get that money back).

I am a staunch conservative. I think the Fed has assumed powers it was never intended to have. The Constitution details the very limited powers the People grant to the Fed, all other powers are withheld by the people or granted to the many States.

If Maine or Hawaii wants to provide "free" healthcare, fine they may. But as soon as they run their budgets into the ground, don't come begging for my earned income to pay for it!

We have a right to pursue happiness, which does include health. We are NOT guarenteed happiness/health at the expense of other's property. When the people feel they can take from one to give to themselves, property rights eventually erode to meaninglessness.

Yes, there is fear mongering & slander going on...on both sides. We need to slow this train down, give a truly open forum to all of the solutions, and have time to choose the best one. Personally, I think the Fed should stay out of it, but if such "must" be done, we should try the various methods at the State level first - for 5 years or so. If pure market solutions fail, its only one State. If pure socialist methods fail, it's only one (other) State.

If we screw this up on the Federal level, it will remain bad for generations.

Scarab Sages

pres man wrote:
Please pass the dutchie on the left hand side, I want a hit.

Oh man, I haven't thought about that video in years. I remember when it first aired on MTV (back when they showed videos almost all the time).

This generation rules the nation with version
Music happen to be the food of love.
Sounds to really make you rub and scrub.
I say: Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side
Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side
It a gonna burngive me music make me jump and prance
It a go done give me the music make me rock in the dance.
It was a cool and lovely breezy afternoon.
How does it feel when you've got no food?
You could feel it 'cause it was the month ofJune.
How does it feel when you've got no food?
So I left my gate and went out for a walk.
How does it feel when you've got no food?
As I pass the dreadlocks' camp I heard them say:
Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side. . .

So I stopped to find out what was going on.
How does it feel when you've got no food?
'cause the spirit ofjah you know he leads you on.
How does it feel when you've got no food?
There was a ring of dreads and a session was there in swing.
How does it feel when you've got no food?
You could feel the chill as I seen and heard them say:
How does it feel when you've got no food?
Pass the Dutchie on the leff hand side. ..

'cos me say listen to the drummerme say listen to the bass.
Give me little music make me wind up me waist.
Me say listen to the drummerme say listen to the bass
Give me little music make me wind up me waist.
Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side. . .

You play it on the radio a so me saywe a go hear it on the stereo
A so me know you a go play it on the disco
A so me say we a go hear it on the stereo.
Pass the Dutchie on the leff hand side. . .

I say east
say west
say north and south
This is gonna make us jump and shout.

Scarab Sages

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


Here's a >Link< for those who didn't live through the Eighties .. LOL


Nameless wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Last time I checked Britain or Canada didn't have 45 MILLION illegals in their countries draining their resources to the limit.

While it's true that we don't have that many illegals in our country (or that many people, at all :P), how would this be an issue? As it stands, if you're not a Canadian citizen (or you don't have legal immigration status), you don't get free health care. You have to pay.

So illegal immigrants probably wouldn't qualify for the free health care, and wouldn't be a burden on this new system.

I'm just conjecturing here, but couldn't this actually help the U.S. Immigration situation? I feel like this would encourage illegal immigrants to become citizens or 'legal' immigrants so that they can benefit from the health care.

I can only speak from personal experience here nameless but when I was living in Colorado and working all over the four corners area the illegal’s DID NOT want to become legal for any reason. They considered themselves Mexicans or Honduran or whatever country they came from and were here simply to get a job and send money back to their families. I spoke with several of them and worked alongside of them for years. They simply don’t care about this country except for the jobs it provides them. I personally found that sad, When the Irish, English, Germans or just about ANY other European immigrant came here they did so understanding that they were coming here to build a better life for themselves and were here to stay not be a human parasite and then leave when they felt like it. I realize this may seem like a off topic discussion but it to me goes hand in hand with health care. Health care does need reform but not a universal health care plan to cover everybody regardless of whether they can pay or not. To the comments about the fact that I am already paying for the illegal’s you are correct however their will be a huge difference between covering an emergency room visit or paying for long term cancer treatment or heart attack recovery or any number of other long term ailments. In so far as the president’s promise that abortion will not be covered I do not believe that in any way shape or form. If a parent wants to terminate the pregnancy then they should be able to if they wish but I will not willingly support or pay any of my money for their mistake. I worry for the next few years because I can only see things getting worse for the economy, the health system and for America as a whole.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Gods I never though I'd hear or see that video again...

Scarab Sages

Patrick Curtin wrote:
Here's a >Link< for those who didn't live through the Eighties .. LOL

Damn, Youtube doesn't come through here at wor....uh, I mean the supermarket. Yeah, that's right....supermarket. Looks like I'll have to wait until I get home.


And though I didn't want to get involved in another political flame fest, I have one observation.

Why is the notion of tort reform totally off the table? If the Dems amd Obama were serious about Health care reform, you would think the main reason malpractice insurance and health insurance in general has skyrocketed would need to be addressed. BTW, this is by no means a Dem-only problem, but they are the ones pushing for reform of the system, so I'm calling them out.

Relevant Link

Now I don't begrudge anyone fair compensense for injuries by medical negligence. My own daughter is multi-handicapped because of medical malpractice. BUT, there are a LOT of spurious lawsuits that target doctors. There is nothing to stop lawyers from continuing this practice under the proposed Universal Health System, which also means the endless expensive rounds of CYA testing will continue under the new system.

So, you will have doctors being squeezed from both sides, with the government pressing to pay less for services and the malpractice insurance only going higher. If I was a bright young high-school student I would be going pre-law rather than pre-med right now. I fear that the pool of doctors will start to dry up as the incentives to enter the health field becomes smaller and smaller.

My 2 cents.


Slight derail, but I wanted to comment a bit on the illegal immigrants issue. The only reason this is a problem is because of... legal citizens. Crack down on those who employ illegal citizens and the illegals would either have to become legal citizens or leave the country, since there would be no work for them. However, does that sound feasible? No, didn't think so. So basically the American economy is dependant on the illegal immigrants. Funny how that works, no?
Of course, it would also be much more cost effective if everyone went to their primary care physician first, instead of going to the ER because you have a cold.

(spoken from the shelter of my own apartment, where I'll happily pay my 39% tax rate since it gives me universal health care (including psychological counseling and therapy at the moment) and unemployment benefits)

Liberty's Edge

Thanx. Just like that, the illegal immigration problem is fixed.
And here I thought it was a complex issue.....
just blame the employers. Wow. Whoda thunk it?
Dude, that's as oversimplified and useless as "bild uh bag ass fence. Thet'll kape them atta hyoh."

Sovereign Court

As I already mentioned, Illegal Immigrants pay $7 Billion into Social Security through payroll taxes. If Health Insurance becomes mandatory, that would be paid through payroll taxes as well, meaning that they would have to contribute to the system, if they got paid through a payroll.

Liberty's Edge

Uzzy wrote:
if they got paid through a payroll.

That's the clincher right there. ;)


Heathansson wrote:


Thanx. Just like that, the illegal immigration problem is fixed.
And here I thought it was a complex issue.....
just blame the employers. Wow. Whoda thunk it?
Dude, that's as oversimplified and useless as "bild uh bag ass fence. Thet'll kape them atta hyoh."

I didn't say that it would fix it "just like that" - but I'd like you to refute that if they couldn't find work then a large portion of them wouldn't come in the first place. I think that's a fairly logical conclusion.

Besides, if one can't blame the employers who employ them, who do you want to blame then? Aren't they the source of the money they cross the border to earn?
I know there are a lot of other issues (living conditions in general in the countries they leave behind), however the most obvious place to start is to crack down on the employers.

Sovereign Court

pres man wrote:
So if an illegal immigrant showed up in a Canadian ER, they would be asked to pay, and if they couldn't, you'd just let them die? Because that is what it looks like you are saying.

Yep, that's pretty much how we roll here in Canada. We enjoy the pain and suffering of others. How else could hockey have become our national sport?

To return the question to you, what does the American system do if someone doesn't have insurance? Are they just left to die?

No. You treat them, and then you give them the bill. Why would it be any different here?

Silver Crusade

I would vote for a socialised health care. I tired of going to the doctor's office and being sent home for nothing and only having to go back 30 minutes later because the kidney stone was causing me to throw-up in my car. Yet there was nothing wrong with me. I swear when the doctor's disappear they go to webmd. I think if they can't fix a problem I should have to pay them. Bastards. By the way they charged me twice for that ER visits. Tards. I want the thing in Star Trek that tells us what is wrong.

I don't believe something like cancer should ruin a persons life, body and money.

Sovereign Court

Heathansson wrote:
Uzzy wrote:
if they got paid through a payroll.
That's the clincher right there. ;)

Which they already do, to the tune of $7 Billion in Social Security taxes. ;)

Dark Archive

Heathansson wrote:


Thanx. Just like that, the illegal immigration problem is fixed.
And here I thought it was a complex issue.....
just blame the employers. Wow. Whoda thunk it?
Dude, that's as oversimplified and useless as "bild uh bag ass fence. Thet'll kape them atta hyoh."

Lets just annex Mexico. That's the really easy solution. [threadjack]I used to work in a plant that manufactured paper products. We would get the paper in huge one ton rolls. We also had to keep the shipping and manufacturing tags so we culd get reembursed if something was wrong with them. One day I got a roll that proudly proclaimed on the manufacturing tag "MADE IN THE USA." Then right under that it said "Mexico City, Mexico plant." I thought it was a fluke, but then last week I bought a bottle of grated parmesan cheese that says "Product of Argentina, United States." [/threadjack]

Dark Archive

Uzzy wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Uzzy wrote:
if they got paid through a payroll.
That's the clincher right there. ;)
Which they already do, to the tune of $7 Billion in Social Security taxes. ;)

Uzzy, could you please provide us with the source of your information? I would like to read it for myself.

Liberty's Edge

Uzzy wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Uzzy wrote:
if they got paid through a payroll.
That's the clincher right there. ;)
Which they already do, to the tune of $7 Billion in Social Security taxes. ;)

7 billion dollars is a lot of money.

When you divide it by 40 million though, it's 175 per person.
Not a lot of money.
Have you ever been by a Home Depot parking lot in the early morning?
That leaves a loooooooooooooot of people still not paying into the system.


To quote my good friend Jim Carry, "If theUnited States adopts a Canadian style medical sysem , where will rich Canadians go to ge health care?"


Prof. John David Lewis of Duke University analyzes the bill.

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:


A large part of that would probably be the fact that there isn't actually a bill for them to vote on yet. It's still being worked out and isn't near being complete.

It's kind of funny to hear people like Sarah Palin run off at the mouth saying how it's going to work. I want to know who their psychic is since there isn't even a bill to read yet!

Abraham, there is indeed a bill that has been advanced out of Comittee in the House, H.R. 3200, which was linked to in this very thread, by me. We can debate whether or not the bill actually says what people like Sarah Palin says it does, but the existance of a bill is incontrovertial fact. I don't care which sideof the issue you are on,I would urge you to read the bill. Like Thomas Jefferson said, the best defense againt tyranny is an informed and educated citizenry.


I analyze the bill. And yes, I actually read it.

The Exchange

Unamerican is thugs silencing disent


yellowdingo wrote:
Unamerican is thugs silencing disent

Health care reforms are turning into health care revolts. Americans are turning up the heat on congressmen in town hall meetings across the U.S., who apparently hoped that citizens would simply swallow the hook of Obamacare.

It's unfortunate that rather than respecting and welcoming citizens' questions and grievances, many of our national leaders are belittling, demonizing and marginalizing them as extremists. They refuse to believe these groups represent any real grass roots resistance. Instead, they concoct conspiracy theories that they are conservatives who are secretly mobilizing these irrational marches.

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said that protesters of Obamacare are "un-American" and "carrying Swastikas." Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., accused the protesters of trying to "sabotage" the democratic process. And Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., responded that "well-dressed" protesters are out to "hurt our president."

So who are the real extremists – citizens who voice their First Amendment grievances or politicians who through their rhetoric try socially to quarantine citizens and impede democratic debate?

Sovereign Court

The source, as I mentioned above, is here. The numbers of Illegals in the US seems to be closer to 12 Million, by the way.

Would such a system catch everyone, no. But that's no reason not to do it. Thinking otherwise is falling into the 'No Perfect Solution' fallacy.

I would also point out that the $7 Billion that's contributed to the US Social Security system by Illegal Immigrants is contributed into a system that they cannot claim from. Add Healthcare to this mix, and it may encourage more illegal immigrants to try and become legal immigrants in the US, so they can access more of the health care system. Though I've no figures for such a claim.

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