Level Adjusment (LA) and Effective Character Level (ECL) in Pathfinder


General Discussion (Prerelease)


Will Pathfinder handle LA and ECL any differently than the 3.5 SRD?


Unlike some others, I don't really hate LA. That said, it could be improved upon. During the PFRPG BETA, I have suggested using a permanent experience point penalty instead of LA. The only problem with the idea is that the change in the XP system to one that has rapidly increasing XP costs of levels renders any XP penalty quickly meaningless. It would have to be scaled (but not fully) in order for it to be viable.

Grand Lodge

darth_borehd wrote:
Will Pathfinder handle LA and ECL any differently than the 3.5 SRD?

They've said that they are not including LA or ECL in Pathfinder and it has been removed from the Bestiary. On that not, they will give suggestions for playing the non-standard races, but until they release a "Savage Species" type book that's all it will be - suggestions.


I have not seen anything official. But if there is no change I will keep our old house rule.

In our house rules we gave "racial" levels equal to the LA. It was a bit off at 1st or 2nd level in favor of the player, but over time it balanced out a bit more.

If a class was LA 2 then the player would start off with the first level of his class and the racial bonuses. Then as he leveled to 2nd and 3rd he would gain a racial hit die, saves, attacks, etc from the creature type. At 4th level he could take his second level of a class.

If the race had a lot of powers the DM could phase in the abilities over the race levels. This was not a perfect method but it did allow the players with an LA to level at the same rate and keep about the same hit points, skill points, feats, etc as the other players.

Scarab Sages

Yes, it's already been spoken of, we just have to wait til the Bestiary and Main book come out to see how...


Playing funky races is one of my favorite things to do, so just in case it still matters to any editorial process I do hope there are options for playing as wide a selection of races as possible.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Yes, it's already been spoken of, we just have to wait til the Bestiary and Main book come out to see how...

If you look at Qadira, Gateway to the East, you can see a template and a new race. In both cases, what used to be LA is now listed as CR adjustment (in these cases CR +4 and CR+0).

I know James Jacobs said in a recent weekly chat, and possibly several places on these boards, that the Bestiary will include tables of races that are relatively equivalent in power to player races as well as some slightly and much more powerful. It will also offer suggestions on how to integrate monstrous races into a campaign, but that it would emphasize that it should be up to a GM to allow or forbid any race. The removal of a mechanic from the core rules makes it a GM decision instead of giving ammo to players who could come back and say "But it's in the core rules!" Beyond that, though, we'll have to wait for the actual book to come out to see how this has actually been implemented.


Making it a flat DM decision is irksome, though, because it requires extra effort on the part of the DM to determine just what the LA is supposed to be in the first place, and how best to handle it. Sure, I can use 3.5 as a guideline (lopping off a +1 for many of them, in all likelihood), but I shouldn't have to do basic work like that from rules I'm purchasing. A Savage Species style book better be rapidly forthcoming if they're holding off until then for comprehensive rules on playing a "non-standard" race. I want to play my minotaur monk, dagnabbit!


Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Making it a flat DM decision is irksome, though, because it requires extra effort on the part of the DM to determine just what the LA is supposed to be in the first place, and how best to handle it. Sure, I can use 3.5 as a guideline (lopping off a +1 for many of them, in all likelihood), but I shouldn't have to do basic work like that from rules I'm purchasing. A Savage Species style book better be rapidly forthcoming if they're holding off until then for comprehensive rules on playing a "non-standard" race. I want to play my minotaur monk, dagnabbit!

I agree with the -1 LA of most of the races, but not any of the templates. Our group has already done a bit of tinkering with some of the non-standard races to bring them in line with the Pathfinder races.

Check out the Genasi from Faerun- all but the Air are inferior to the base races of PFRPG, and even Air might come up short, despite being +1 LA. Level Adjusted races seem too random to really consider right out of the box. Half-Fey is a +2 Template with ridiculous stat bonuses and extra spells- Half-Elemental is a +3 template with good spells but generally meager stat bonuses.


I actually converted all the planetouched (aasimar, genasi, etc) into LA +1 templates - why should all aasimar have the same modifiers, whether they came from human stock or elven? I've seen some of them used for a few PCs, but they're still not super popular. However, they're much more justified on the LA front now, IMHO.

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