Creative Director
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I've been looking to Gamemastering a Pathfinder adventure path for a long time now, but there has been something about the earlier paths that made me wait for the next one. I do like my campaigns a bit more mature and low and supernatural stuff and magic, so I decided after reading the companion (that you got for free) to throw out most of the races, like gnomes and halflings and dwarfs. Now finally I flipped through the pages of the Howl of the Carrion King in the store and decided to get it. I liked how the setting was different from the usual fantasy stuff.
But soon I ran into the Pugvampi, and not only my players will hate them, so do I as a Gamemaster. As I only have the first book yet I wonder how important are those silly creatures for the future? I've been thinking to replace them with "corrupted" mischievous monkies, animals with semi-intelligence. But I don't know, any suggestions from you who have read through all the paths and maybe played them?
As with anything in a Paizo product, you as the GM are the lens through which your players see the world. You know your players. We do not. If something in a Paizo product will annoy or enrage your players and you know that, it's sort of your responsibility as the GM to excise that element from the adventure. A great example of this are the decidedly "mature content" ogres of Pathfinder #3's "Hook Mountain Massacre." If your players are uncomfortable with inbred and graphically violent ogres, you absolutely shouldn't have them appear in your game.
Same goes for the pugwampis. I'm unclear if you think that your players will hate them because they're somewhat comedic or if you think your players will hate them because of the unluck mechanic, though, so it's difficult to know what part of the pugwampi you're looking to replace. "Corrupted" mischievous monkeys sound pretty com-medic to me, so I assume you're taking offense at the unluck mechanic, in which case you can just cut the unluck mechanic from the pugwampi stats and go with that if you want. You can even describe them as weird monkeys and call them weird monkeys and still use the stats as presented in the book, and your PCs won't know.
That said, there's been an awful lot of positive feedback about the pugwampis from folks who have played the adventure, and it sounds to me like the unluck mechanic does a GREAT job at helping PCs hate the pugwampis. After all... they're SUPPOSED to be hated. That's sort of what a gremlin's role in mythology and legend is, after all; something that messes with you in really annoying and sometimes dangerous ways.
In any event, pugwampis are pretty much only in the first adventure; they're too wimpy a monster to last for long as the PCs gain levels.
I haven't played Legacy of Fire but I have read through it. The Pugs are only (as far as I can recall) only in the first volume. I actually kind of like them and both of the scenes they're in seem like fun to me - I think my players would like them.
I can see, though, how they might not be to the taste of some people. They're sort of an integral part of the story of the first one but I imagine they could be replaced with something more mundane without too much problem.
If you don't like "high-fantasy" though I think that LoF probably holds bigger problems for you than that - genie wars are high-fantasy personified. Maybe Curse of the Crimson Throne or the upcoming AP (not sure what it's about really) might be more to your liking? All of the APs tend to be pretty "grand", I guess. I might have misunderstood your comment though.
M
[edit]Yeah, I think I probably misunderstood you...so ignore my last paragraph if it's not relevant. :)
More positive feedback:
from my groups point of view these were super annoying and hated straight away. It was great. Considering how experienced these guys are (each of us been doing this stuff for 20 years plus) it spruced the 1st level play to a truly memorable event. The second and third times they were encountered the groans were loud and long. I think they may have played out their "fun" factor but I also think they performed their purpose.
As a side note, this AP does get more and more supernatural as you go along. The path involves genies and planar travel... if you don't like the supernatural I am not sure this will be for you... at least not with out a lot of conversion on your part.
Sean Mahoney
I think I'll ditch this AP, at least for the moment. Thanks everyone who took their time
This makes me feel a little bad :(
But if he really doesn't like supernatural he wouldn't have been happy.
Sean Mahoney
My players have actually threatened me with grievous bodily injury if I ever use pugwumpis again. The chapel fight was kind of ridiculous. I like the idea of the unluck aura, but after seeing it in action I think I might agree with them and not use the little buggers anymore. The aura just slows everything to a crawl. One of my players climbed up on the roof of the monastery and wound up at the window that goes into Mocknock's lair, and he almos killed, her, admittedly I'd reworked him to challenge them a little more, but she was afraid to run due to the aura. *chuckles* then we remembered that tiny creatures don't threaten a space. The party managed to rip the floor out of the lair and the ranger critted Mocknock as he fell with his readied action.
Mostly it just seems to slow everything down and everyone was rather grouchy about it. I think partly it was the environment of the chapel, as the terrain was particularly well suited to them.
I need to consider it some more.
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My campaign kicks off this Saturday, and I am actually looking forward to running the gremlins, although I am sure that my players will hate them. I see them as mischievous fey that haunt various environments, and I plan to play them as such with a touch of comedy thrown in as well. I will be having some fun with the bad luck element of the creature.
Just running the first pugwampi encounter ALONE just about broke my players. The tank got tangled and dumped onto the cactus for full damage. Everyone rolled so poorly on one out of the 2 attack rolls (out of six PC's) that the battle lasted a whole three rounds. Two players during the battle decided to just do nothing because they were so paranoid about what would happen.
Going to be brutal and fun to see what happens in the monastery. They're going to be traumatized.
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DM: Pugwampis=Lots of fun
PCs: Pugwampis=@#!%$#@!
I'm running the LoF with Savage Worlds and the PCs just made it to the Old Monastery. The battle in the Chapel was crazy-the tank couldn't kill anything but the halfling "thief" was the designated pugwampi killer.After the battle, the players agreed how not fun they were. The stirges were a problem as well-draining the tank something fierce. Good times, good times...
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Running Howl of the Carrion King, I loved the pugwampis. They're an ideal first-level opponent, since they generate interesting, challenging and even difficult combat encounters without threatening to end a PC's life on a single crit.
The party, of course, hated them. They're an ideal low-level adversary, though they do rely a lot on the environment. The chapel battle was great, with PCs dropping like flies from the ceiling.
The fight with Mokknokk was brutal.
The party killed enough wandering pugwampis to attract Mokknokk's attention. When he found them he charged in. I thought the fight was pretty much done when the Beguiler color sprayed the group and Mokknokk was out of it for 2 rounds, but nope. The one pug that made its save shattered the rogue's shortbow and they were out of most ranged weapon options.
While the monk snapped the neck of the unconscious pug, everyone attacked. And missed. And missed. The sorc's magic missile didn't bypass the SR of Mokknokk, so she got paranoid and fell back to use her crossbow. After the monk dispatched the second pug guard the grappling monk STILL couldn't get a hold of Mokknokk with some very poor rolls and eventually gave up and watched. The knight literally said "Damn the AoO" and ran out to full range and tossed his spear for a critical. Then he ran up and THREW Mokknokk's hammer at him (which he picked up after Mokknokk dropped it from the color spray), and still missed- as did everyone else. So what did Mokknokk do after everyone attacked that round and missed?
He bent down and picked up the hammer. Everyone got an AoO. And. Everyone. Missed.
Mokknokk looked up at the tangle of weapons that collided above his head and laughed and laughed.
The rogue finally got lucky and flanked the bastard for sneak attack damage to take him down right afterward. As it was, the fight lasted 6 rounds- and would have been much longer if the knight didn't luck out with the spear crit.
And they STILL haven't entered the chapel yet...
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We cleared the monestary a few weeks back. The Pugwampi's are meant to be annoying and while they are a threat for low level PC's, eventually they won't add any value to the adventure. To make the monestary easier to run, I built it as a 3-D model. This allowed everyone the opportunity to experience the room the way it was designed. It was a slow battle, but the players won in the end and King Mokknock fell to his doom.
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We cleared the monestary a few weeks back. The Pugwampi's are meant to be annoying and while they are a threat for low level PC's, eventually they won't add any value to the adventure. To make the monestary easier to run, I built it as a 3-D model. This allowed everyone the opportunity to experience the room the way it was designed. It was a slow battle, but the players won in the end and King Mokknock fell to his doom.
What did you use to build the model? Any hints for those of us just getting started in terrain modeling?
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Sure. I used a box that you buy a 24 pack of water bottles in. Granted it is not like the map, but cut a few doors into one side, glue a little cardboard in the center to make the floor level and then glue down a map (office Max 1" grid paper sprayed with 3M glue from Home depot). Draw your map, add to the walls if you wish. Then buy three 2' sticks (3/4" by 1/2") from Michaels or hobby lobby. I cut a notch into the cardboard box at both far ends of the building, one over the alter, one over the doors. This main rafter must sit level with the top of the box. Then glue the other rafters on in the other direction. Only glue the rafters to each other, not the box. This way you can take them all off in the beginning of the battle. Overlap these rafters on the box too. I added some scrap 2" wide by 8" long sections to the sides to give the Pugwampi somewhere to hang out and then another small platform over the alter for the King. You can draw 1" marks on the rafters for movement. I provided a couple of ladders for access and then used acrobatic checks (DC8, 10, and 12 depending on the condition of the rafter to safely navigate them. They wouldn't break, you could only fall off, which is unlucky.
Some of my other handi-work is on the Paizo Blog right now. That took a little more effort.