Without going into too much detail as to exactly which feats/powers/etc is "ideal". (I dont have the concentration/focus for that). Can anyone provide any general advice on how I should develop my wizard?
So far he's taking all the options which increase the efficacy of his area attacks - and he's a big hit when we run into a bunch of minions or any encounter where the enemy are clumped together. When we're down to only one or two enemies though - he rarely has any better option than magic missile.
Is that just life for a wizard? (ie that he's a minion exterminator, his job is to clear them out and let the defender/striker get to work on the boss) Or should I get him one or two "target one enemy" powers?
A vague question I know, but any thoughts which you think might be useful would be appreciated.
May I direct your attention here
enjoy ;)
May I direct your attention here
enjoy ;)
Wrong system. Although it pleases me slightly (although not suprising) seeing the status of that poster.
I decided to go with a variety of attacks for my wizard. Some area attacks, a few powers that targeted up to three enemies on the battlefield, and a few powers that just targeted one creature. I believe a greater range of attacks is more helpful than being a minion killer (unless your GM really likes minions) because you are able to deal with almost any situation that comes up.
Still seeing how well that will turn out for myself.
May I direct your attention here
enjoy ;)
That's LN's 3.5 Wizard handbook. While very good, it isn't terribly applicable to 4th Edition. Though LN now plays 4th Edition pretty exclusively, he hasn't yet written a new handbook. I might poke him about it later.
As for the topic of this thread, Wizards thrive on adaptability. There won't be minions in every fight, but when there are it helps to have some AoE powers to bring out. There won't be a solo in every fight, but when you do come across one a single-target lockdown spell goes a long way. You probably want at least one AoE at-will and at least one single-target at-will, and then you want to mix the rest of your power selections up.
My two cents would be that if you want to optimize your helpfulness to your group, you might want to consider playing a Bard, instead of a Wizard.
Beyond their spells, Bards have many skills and abilities which are useful to any group, of any level, or any edition.
And among them is their major social options, when interacting with NPCs, negotiating or collecting information...
My fault, didn't read.. didn't realize it was a 4E thread..
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Welcome to why I don't like the current occupant of D&D, reason #2.
Yes, you can make a wizard more useful. There is a very strange way to do it too.
It's a feat called Melee Training from the player's handbook 2 that lets you use one of your other ability scores then strength for your basic melee attack. So assuming you've got a 18-20 intelligence like you should, that means you can punch someone smartly at +5 for 1d4+5 or use that dagger and go flank with the rogue/fighter/whatever and swing at +10 at first level.
Then, depending on your race you take a feat or a few feats and then go hit the monsters. Easiest when your a dwarf or eladrin, since you've got a warhammer or longsword at the ready. I did this with a dwarf, set his con to 20, had like a 14 int and a 13 wis and he just ran around massacring things with his warhammer wielded in two hands. He still hit everyone with his wizard powers too, it was kind of sad.
Get the miniatures card wizard power no-friend-hitting AOE minion killer at-will spell and then take whatever else you want, probably thunder wave if you have any wisdom bonus. Load up on any AOE stuff or zone stuff you can that won't hurt your allies and then get into melee. Your AC is probably on par with a lot of other classes and if you've got a defender in the party actually marking things like they're supposed to you'll normally be left alone.
So go in, blast the minions and then melee. You'll be much more useful.
Welcome to why I don't like the current occupant of D&D, reason #2.
Yes, you can make a wizard more useful. There is a very strange way to do it too.
It's a feat called Melee Training from the player's handbook 2 that lets you use one of your other ability scores then strength for your basic melee attack. So assuming you've got a 18-20 intelligence like you should, that means you can punch someone smartly at +5 for 1d4+5 or use that dagger and go flank with the rogue/fighter/whatever and swing at +10 at first level.
Then, depending on your race you take a feat or a few feats and then go hit the monsters. Easiest when your a dwarf or eladrin, since you've got a warhammer or longsword at the ready. I did this with a dwarf, set his con to 20, had like a 14 int and a 13 wis and he just ran around massacring things with his warhammer wielded in two hands. He still hit everyone with his wizard powers too, it was kind of sad.
Get the miniatures card wizard power no-friend-hitting AOE minion killer at-will spell and then take whatever else you want, probably thunder wave if you have any wisdom bonus. Load up on any AOE stuff or zone stuff you can that won't hurt your allies and then get into melee. Your AC is probably on par with a lot of other classes and if you've got a defender in the party actually marking things like they're supposed to you'll normally be left alone.
So go in, blast the minions and then melee. You'll be much more useful.
This is one very cool way to play a Wizard. But it's far from being able to claim the title of "best way to play a Wizard", and there are plenty of other roads you can take to make your Wizard more effective.
I do think it speaks to the strength of the system that you can create an Eladrin who can both sling spells and hold his own in melee if he must.
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System speaking aside ;)
I found a Wizard in 4e to be a really interesting, sure you can't be everything rolled into 1 class, but would hardly need a party if you were right?
Sounds like your role as AoE and "crowd control" would be invaluable in some situations, and less so in others. My Wizard is more a single target sort of guy and there are times where that is good and others where I think "I wish I had". Anyway great thing about 4e, play as Wizard type X for a while then as you level start swapping out some of the powers/spells you find less usefaul to you, your party and the style of game you are playing.
I haven't found there to be "useless" classes in 4e, each has their place and will shine now and then and sometimes be a little more wall flowery. But at the end of the day (rather than just at the start - sorry Vancian system, but it's true) you will always have "something" you can do - even if magic missile... :)
Happy Wizarding,
S.
Welcome to why I don't like the current occupant of D&D, reason #2.
Yes, you can make a wizard more useful. There is a very strange way to do it too.
It's a feat called Melee Training from the player's handbook 2 that lets you use one of your other ability scores then strength for your basic melee attack. So assuming you've got a 18-20 intelligence like you should, that means you can punch someone smartly at +5 for 1d4+5 or use that dagger and go flank with the rogue/fighter/whatever and swing at +10 at first level.
Then, depending on your race you take a feat or a few feats and then go hit the monsters. Easiest when your a dwarf or eladrin, since you've got a warhammer or longsword at the ready. I did this with a dwarf, set his con to 20, had like a 14 int and a 13 wis and he just ran around massacring things with his warhammer wielded in two hands. He still hit everyone with his wizard powers too, it was kind of sad.
Get the miniatures card wizard power no-friend-hitting AOE minion killer at-will spell and then take whatever else you want, probably thunder wave if you have any wisdom bonus. Load up on any AOE stuff or zone stuff you can that won't hurt your allies and then get into melee. Your AC is probably on par with a lot of other classes and if you've got a defender in the party actually marking things like they're supposed to you'll normally be left alone.
So go in, blast the minions and then melee. You'll be much more useful.
Cool! SO you made your wizard more like Gandalf? Except with a warhammer instead of longsword? That is really awesome! I have always wanted to play a wizard like Gandalf and now we finally have a rule set that allows it. Thanks for the help!
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Cool! SO you made your wizard more like Gandalf? Except with a warhammer instead of longsword? That is really awesome! I have always wanted to play a wizard like Gandalf and now we finally have a rule set that allows it. Thanks for the help!
Well yes if Gandalf wasn't all that good of a wizard, was a dwarf and claimed to be responsible for the spell plague in the forgotten realms. (He made a wish that he could be a wizard and well, things got a little out of hand...)
Cool! SO you made your wizard more like Gandalf? Except with a warhammer instead of longsword? That is really awesome! I have always wanted to play a wizard like Gandalf and now we finally have a rule set that allows it. Thanks for the help!Well yes if Gandalf wasn't all that good of a wizard, was a dwarf and claimed to be responsible for the spell plague in the forgotten realms. (He made a wish that he could be a wizard and well, things got a little out of hand...)
It still strikes me as an interesting build. You don't really have the hps and healing surges to be a front line fighter but You could move in and fight. Thing is what are you using for combat powers? Did you multi-class? Or are these mainly just basic attacks? or...?
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It still strikes me as an interesting build. You don't really have the hps and healing surges to be a front line fighter but You could move in and fight. Thing is what are you using for combat powers? Did you multi-class? Or are these mainly just basic attacks? or...?
Actually with a 20 constitution that gives a wizard 30 hit points, and 11 healing surges. A fighter with a 14 constitution has 29 hit points and 11 healing surges. A paladin would have more surges but the only person at the table with more hit points was the ranger who focused on con for his fort defense and had toughness, and that was only barely. Being a dwarf, the horrible AC didn't hamper too much since second wind was a minor action and there was a compliant tank at the table who actually remembered to make things.
No reason to multi-class at all, basic melee attack is all you really need when your just trying to hurt things. The feats were the important thing. Dwarven Weapon Training and so forth.
It still strikes me as an interesting build. You don't really have the hps and healing surges to be a front line fighter but You could move in and fight. Thing is what are you using for combat powers? Did you multi-class? Or are these mainly just basic attacks? or...?Actually with a 20 constitution that gives a wizard 30 hit points, and 11 healing surges. A fighter with a 14 constitution has 29 hit points and 11 healing surges. A paladin would have more surges but the only person at the table with more hit points was the ranger who focused on con for his fort defense and had toughness, and that was only barely. Being a dwarf, the horrible AC didn't hamper too much since second wind was a minor action and there was a compliant tank at the table who actually remembered to make things.
No reason to multi-class at all, basic melee attack is all you really need when your just trying to hurt things. The feats were the important thing. Dwarven Weapon Training and so forth.
Basic Attack is pretty viable at low level but it won't hold up compared to other classes as the levels increase. I'm also unclear how you'll make your spells really zing if your main stat for them is low. Are you using feats to make them key off of constitution as well?
It seems to me you've shown that you can make a wizard who's a pretty good front line combatant, at low levels at least, but if one had created a dwarf fighter or barbarian with the same stats it'd have been significantly better as a front line combatant.
I still think there may be something interesting one can do with this build, especially if you actually multi-class.
Cool! SO you made your wizard more like Gandalf? Except with a warhammer instead of longsword? That is really awesome! I have always wanted to play a wizard like Gandalf and now we finally have a rule set that allows it. Thanks for the help!Well yes if Gandalf wasn't all that good of a wizard, was a dwarf and claimed to be responsible for the spell plague in the forgotten realms. (He made a wish that he could be a wizard and well, things got a little out of hand...)
Well Gandalf never did much 'big' magic but I do remember him wading into the fray with longsword drawn knocking out Orcs with flashes of magic power and hacking orc necks next to Thorin and (later) Aragorn. That, to me, is Gandalf and the build you describe nails it.
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Basic Attack is pretty viable at low level but it won't hold up compared to other classes as the levels increase. I'm also unclear how you'll make your spells really zing if your main stat for them is low. Are you using feats to make them key off of constitution as well?
It seems to me you've shown that you can make a wizard who's a pretty good front line combatant, at low levels at least, but if one had created a dwarf fighter or barbarian with the same stats it'd have been significantly better as a front line combatant.
I still think there may be something interesting one can do with this build, especially if you actually multi-class.
You don't use spells at all, unless something just happens to stumble into your lap. Just take whatever spells doesn't require an attack roll and go from there. Zones or flame orbs or whatever. Spells are very irrelevant to the build.
If you really wanted to do a little spell casting you could go with the conjuration stuff and use the book that lets you add your con modifier to damage, and then just toss the book on the ground to two-hand your hammer. Burning actions to do what you do yourself probably just slows it down though.
The biggest disadvantage was trying to get into full plate. 15 strength is a long way off...
You'll swing with a non-magical Craighammer at +8 for somewhere around 1d10+8 (11-18) damage at level 2, more then good enough for heroic tier play versus a target, especially if you get a magic hammer. Could even go with the Executioner's Axe and hope for nasty criticals.
A barbarian or a fighter has to use their strength for their attacks, so this doesn't work as well for them, as they'd be better off just being strong. I suppose there are some warlock powers that work on con, and the pact hammer for that class if you really wanted to?
Thank you all for your various comments/suggestions. I'm starting to come to grips with how to use the character in 4th edition. For some reason I find it easier to understand how to play a warrior/type than a mage.
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The key to effective wizard playing in 4e IMHO, is the status effects more so than the damage. If you want an arcane spellcaster that does damage, play a sorcerer. Even in the heroic tier, sorcerers drop sick damage on single targets. At mid paragon tier it becomes almost ridiculous. By epic tier a well built sorcerer will drop over 100+ damage every single round, 200+ if criticalling. Anyway, the main thing is to decide what it is that you really want to be able to do. Wizards excel at crowd control and status effects. Using a proper orb of imposition and actually building the wizard for it, you can sleep lock almost any one monster in a typical battle. At first level you can make a wizard that has 18 Int and at least 16 Wis and force an opponent to roll 13 or better to avoid falling unconscious with a Sleep spell. Then it is coup de grace city. Any effect that dazes or stuns opponents is very useful because action control is a major role for the Wizard in 4e. It is also one of the most powerful. Watch that big solo dragon cry like a baby when you put a persistent daze effect on him.
Anyway, if your goal is to do lots of damage as an arcane caster the Wizard is a suboptimal choice. Although if you play a Deva and take the right feats you can still put pretty sick damage on an opponent using Dual Implement Wielding and a Staff of Ruin. It just all depends on what it is you really want your character to be able to do.
Some what of a threadjack, but how would you make a sorceror do that much damage? We have a level 3 one in our group and he doesnt seem to keep up to well with the damage, but it could be poor power/feat selections, and of course not in the paragon tier yet. Do they get that much better?
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Some what of a threadjack, but how would you make a sorceror do that much damage? We have a level 3 one in our group and he doesnt seem to keep up to well with the damage, but it could be poor power/feat selections, and of course not in the paragon tier yet. Do they get that much better?
In short, yes. They do get that much better. I have a player that is level 22 and is playing a changeling sorcerer (boosts to Dex and Cha) and a Storm Sorcerer with Storm Magic build from Arcane Power. The keys to the damage output are Tempest Magic (increases damage with thunder and lightning powers by 1 per tier), Dual Implement Spellcaster (lets you add the enhancement bonus of an offhand implement to damage roles with arcane powers), and the Staff of Ruin (adds damage to all arcane powers cast using it as an implement as an item bonus equal to the enhancement bonus of the staff. So for example, if you had a +2 Staff of Ruin (lvl 8 item) you would do 2 damage from enhancement, 2 damage from item bonus, and additional damage from your offhand implement).
At paragon tier the must take paragon path is Lightning Fury. It's key ability is that it negates any resistance an opponent has to lightning and thunder damage and if they have immunity they are treated as only having resistance equal to one half their level, which is then reduced to nothing by the part that treats all resistances to lightning and thunder as negated. Key spell at paragon tier is Lightning Daggers. It does 2d4 plus Cha+Dex mod damage if you are a sorcerer and for the rest of the encounter you can repeat the attack every round as a free action. So to do some quick math for you.....
22nd level Changeling Sorcerer starting stats as follows
Str 11
Con 14
Dex 16
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 18
Stats at 22nd level
Str 15 (+1 at 11th, 21st +2 level Demigod Class Feature)
Con 16 (+1 at 11th, 21st level)
Dex 22 (+1 at 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 18th, 21st levels)
Int 13 (+1 at 11th, 21st level)
Wis 9 (+1 at 11th, 21st level)
Cha 26 (+1 at 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 18th, 21st levels +2 Demigod Class Feature)
Paragon Path - Lightning Fury
Epic Destiny - Demigod
Feats: 1 - Tempest Magic 2 - Implement Expertise Staff 4 - Dual Implement Spellcaster 6 - Toughness 8 - Improved Initiative 10 - Oncoming Storm 11 - Arcane Spellfury 12 - Danger Sense 14 - Paragon Defenses 16 - Fleet Footed 18 - Ritual Caster 20 - Sorcerous Reserves 21 - Sorcerer Implement Expertise 22 - Fury of the Storm
Retrain 21 - Lose Sorcerous Reserves for Quickened Spellcasting
I won't go through all the powers, but Lightning Daggers is cast the first round of combat. After that you are getting a minimum of 2 powers cast every single round. One as a standard action and Lightning Daggers as a free action. If you use Quickened Casting you get 1 more as a minor action, and spending an action point gets you a 4th one if you want it as a standard action.
Now, Sorcerer Implement Expertise gets you a critical hit with a sorcerer implement on an arcane power on a 19-20. Fury of the Storm Maximizes the Critical Hit Dice from any critical hit attack. There are lots of Magic Items but here are the two critical ones for damage purposes.
+5 Staff of Ruin (Lvl 23 item)
+5 Magic Dagger (Lvl 21 item)
Here is your damage breakdown on the two spells you get every round once you cast lightning daggers just using your at will Lightning Strike as an example of the 2nd spell besides Lightning Daggers....
Ligthning Daggers Damage 2d4+36
Damage Breakdown
+8 Charisma
+6 Dexterity
+4 Storm Power Class Feature
+5 Enhancement Bonus Staff of Ruin
+5 Item Bonus Staff of Ruin
+5 Enhancement Bonus Magic Dagger from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+3 Tempest Magic (increases to +6 if bloodied)
Lightning Strike 2d8+36
Damage Breakdown - See above
If you critical hit you automatically add 50 damage from the Staff of Ruin and the epic feats I already outlined. If you hit with both Spells each round (and you should given the right feats to boost attack bonus) you will do a minimum of 2d4+2d8+72 damage a round. On average that is 82 damage. If you critical once you add another 50 damage. For kicks and giggles my player also uses the Lightning in the blood paragon class feature and likes to get right on top of his enemies causing them to take 2d6+8 damage for being adjacent to him. He has the armor from the Seekers of the Ashen Crown that lets him cast without provoking attacks of opportunity so he likes to be up close. For his minor action he will add another Lightning Strike for fun sometimes and if he really wants to lay the hurting down he will hit with another high level power with an action point. Each time he adds damage dice plus 36 minimum. If he criticals on anything he adds 50 more. I've had him do 250 damage in a round because he also has the feat that lets him cast an at will power as a free action if he criticals with an at will power. In that particular round he got 5 spells off: 1 for his standard action, 1 for his action point, 1 for his minor action, lightning daggers as a free action, and 1 more at will as a free action after criticalling with his one minor action at will attack. Total damage before rolling dice was 36x5+50 or 230. Anyway you get the idea. Sorcerers are the kings of striker damage output right now. The lightning furies ability to negate resistance and immunity pluse the Storm Sorcerer's feats that improve critical threat range and maximize critical dice seal the deal.
Hope that helps.
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At paragon tier the must take paragon path is Lightning Fury. It's key ability is that it negates any resistance an opponent has to lightning and thunder damage and if they have immunity they are treated as only having resistance equal to one half their level, which is then reduced to nothing by the part that treats all resistances to lightning and thunder as negated.
Your DM lets you get away with this? Given that Storm Magic spell source is a prerequisite of the Lightning Fury paragon path, if they wanted "immunity" to become "no resistance whatsoever", they would have said so, not make you combine various features to come up with it on your own. More realistically, the paragon path feature supercedes the class feature in this instance. Maybe somebody can show me where I'm wrong, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
Mind you, I would like it to be that way, since I am playing a storm sorcerer right now, but I'm just not buying it.
I like the dual implement tip, though. I'll have to remember that.
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At paragon tier the must take paragon path is Lightning Fury. It's key ability is that it negates any resistance an opponent has to lightning and thunder damage and if they have immunity they are treated as only having resistance equal to one half their level, which is then reduced to nothing by the part that treats all resistances to lightning and thunder as negated.Your DM lets you get away with this? Given that Storm Magic spell source is a prerequisite of the Lightning Fury paragon path, if they wanted "immunity" to become "no resistance whatsoever", they would have said so, not make you combine various features to come up with it on your own. More realistically, the paragon path feature supercedes the class feature in this instance. Maybe somebody can show me where I'm wrong, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
Mind you, I would like it to be that way, since I am playing a storm sorcerer right now, but I'm just not buying it.
I like the dual implement tip, though. I'll have to remember that.
Even if my interpretation is wrong, how many monsters are there with lightning immunity? Most just have resistance and all resistance is completely negated. Even for high level monsters with immunity, you will still do A LOT of damage every round using the methods I outlined. Never mind the damage output from criticals that are maximized. I know of no other class that can gain that benefit from a feat. At level 30, base damage output is even higher.
As for my "DM" letting me "get away with it", reread my post. I am the DM and it is my player who has the storm sorcerer. My interpretation of the written rules was that the paragon path converted lightning immunity to lightning resistance. At that point, I interpret the storm soul would further reduce the resistance by an amount up to 15. So against say a level 35 solo that was lightning immune it would only have effective lightning resistance equal to 2 against a storm soul/lightning fury sorcerer. If I am wrong, no skin off anyone's nose as it is my game that I am DMing. The Storm Sorcerer still dishes out phenominal damage regardless of if you go with your interpretation or mine. I've seen no other striker that can come close on a constant round by round basis in damage output to the sorcerer. Either way, most monsters have resistances to elements not immunities. So unless I am purposefully trying to stack every encounter with Lightning immune monsters, my storm sorcerer players damage output isn't even going to be slowed in the slightest. Again, he will consistently drop 100 pts of damage a round and with criticals will routinely exceed 200 pts a round. Even against a level 35 solo that type of damage output will end the battle in 10 rounds at most. It isn't even accounting for the other players and what they are doing.
Anyway, I have shown where his damage output comes from. The paragon path feature that eliminates all resistance to lightning and reduces immunity to resistance almost makes the storm sorcerer/lightning fury a broken combo. The storm sorcerer is also the only character that I know of who has a feat they can take that maximizes ALL of their critical hit damage dice. With a +5 staff of ruin that is 50 extra damage on a critical. With a +6 staff it is 60 extra damage on a critical. With the ability to get criticals on 19-20, criticals come up very often at my gaming table for the sorcerer player. Add on the feat that lets him get another free action at will power when he crits and the damage stacks up fast. Personally, I think it is a good thing. Damage scalability relative to monster HP is a tough nut to crack at high levels. Having classes that can actually lay a wallup in damage at high levels is good for keeping those solo battles from grinding out like the OP was talking about.
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Oh, I agree with everything else in your post, and your overall conclusion, and also agree that creatures with lightning immunity are generally a rarity. I was just disagreeing with that particular rule interpretation.
I also agree with your suggestion that if the player wants to focus on dealing damage, he should be a striker rather than a controller.
I am a long way from epic tier, but I will be sure to grab that feat that maximizes extra critical damage... Even on a +5 staff of storms, rather than staff of ruin, that could be 30 damage. Good stuff. My sorcerer is two levels behind most of the party, and he still makes the wizard envious :)