For those who don't get KQ (and why don't you? it's great) here is a very brief summary of the preview. If you want the whole thing then subscribe ;) I'm comparing it to the 3.5 version not the beta version (though they are really close).
the class is much easier to qualify for and the requirements MAKE SENSE. Some ranks in Stealth, a couple ranks in perform dance and the mobility feat chain. All things which make a lot of sense for a stealth/ mobility specialist.
1st and second level are largely unchanged
3rd level
Rogue Talents at a 1/3 level progression starting at 3rd level... this is a nice touch. Though the Dancer only gets advanced talents if the base character had them.
Shadow Illusion remains but you get additional uses as you progress which is nice
Summon Shadow remains but it is different and more powerful. The shadow has 1/2 HP and uses BAB and base saves from the character.
4th level
Gains Shadow Conjuration as an SLA with additional uses per day as the character advances. At 10th level this becomes Greater Shadow Conjuration.
Shadow Jump goes further but is othewise nearly the same.
5th Level +
As I mentioned previously many of the lower level abilities scale and they continue to get rogue talents. Plus all the abilities from the old class come into play but otherwise the only big change is
8th Level:
Shadow Evocation once per day (twice at 10th level)
10th level:
While in Dim light the dancer gains DR 10/-, bonus to saves, and does extra damage on crits...
My overall impression is that the class is significantly stronger than previous. The class is an excellent scout type class and has a lot of utility powers but is really going to be missing out when to swords start flashing. The shadow magic is nice but caster level is Shadow Dancer Level so it lags 5+ levels behind other casters. When you start casting Shadow Conjuration your caster level is 4th level but your character is 9th level. There is a no sneak attack progression either.
So the character is full of stealth and mobility but not full of *POW*
And hey if this looks sparse it's kind of deliberate. Get the full preview from KQ.
Is this going to be in the rule book, or is it an extra added bonus?
I don't like the Hide in Plain Sight at level 1; it's too good, in my experience, and really good abilities at level 1 encourage "dipping". Personally, I would've preferred to see a shorter prestige class (3 or 5 levels) with Hide in Plain Sight as the "capstone" rather than padding the idea out to 10 levels.
Is this going to be in the rule book, or is it an extra added bonus?
I don't like the Hide in Plain Sight at level 1; it's too good, in my experience, and really good abilities at level 1 encourage "dipping". Personally, I would've preferred to see a shorter prestige class (3 or 5 levels) with Hide in Plain Sight as the "capstone" rather than padding the idea out to 10 levels.
I kind of agree... the class is still a very tempting dip and while it's a much better class than previous the lack of offensive capability makes me think the class will be avoided even with the additions.
I'm certain Hide in Plain Site was kept along with all the other existing abilities because of the reverse compatibility imperative. To integrate the updated dancer into an existing character all you need to do is add the additional special abilities to the progression.
That's true; I keep forgetting about compatibility. Although you could argue that the new Dragon Disciple is not particularly compatible with the old version.
Disappointed!!!
I try to calm down and will try to post somthing positive tomorrow.
I leave you with a quote from another thread by the wise Shisumo:
And Zark says: nor is it any good if you are a monk.
Sounds... decent! I do have KQ, will download at home! :)
The shadowdancer is an odd duck. He's incredibly focused on defense and mobility rather than offense; a slippery bastard, to be sure, but he really doesn't have any teeth.
What I do think is that it would make a horrible base class. A fully-defensive character is useless to the group. However, if you are already a 5th level rogue with 3d6 of sneak-attack under your belt (or better yet a fighter/rogue) and you're looking to diversify your abilities...
I'm really not sure, as I've never seen one in play.
My first response was that shadow evocation was a really cool touch. However, if I played a shadowdancer I certainly wouldn't go all-out in this class because that would be hamstringing my offense (I'd be more likely to go for a couple shadowdancer levels, a couple rogue levels, another shadowdancer level, etc). So, by the time I actually GOT that power, I'd be an 18th level character dropping make-believe 8d6 fireballs.
And Zark says: nor is it any good if you are a monk.
One level of shadowdancer is just fine for a monk (or ranger or rogue).
"I just don't know what it is supposed to do."
It could be a good class for a recurring villain. He can scout the PC's without (probably) being detected. With an emphasis on defense and mobility, he can probably escape once the PC's are close to defeating his minions. If the PC's are defending an item that he wants, he has a good chance to bypass the PC's while his minions are making an obvious frontal assault on the target.
It would make a nice twist on the "mystic ninja" idea - but it doesn't have sneak attack dice. It could be an interesting spin on a bard - but it improves neither spellcasting nor bardic performance. [...]
And Zark says: nor is it any good if you are a monk.
What would people think of adding the following ability to the class:
At each level, you gain one of the following:
Sneak attack progression would probably need to be at a 1d6/3 level rate, like talents. Or maybe it grants d4 sneak attack dice instead, which would on average be about the same. (7 or 7.5 average damage per six levels)
That would counter the criticism that it doesn't mesh well with any of the obvious paths to qualify for the class. It grants some cool new features, but they're new abilities. The class sort of feels like multiclassing into cleric after several levels of wizard (with no Mystic Theurge on the horizon).
That would counter the criticism that it doesn't mesh well with any of the obvious paths to qualify for the class. It grants some cool new features, but they're new abilities. The class sort of feels like multiclassing into cleric after several levels of wizard (with no Mystic Theurge on the horizon).
I don't think that's a good comparison because almost every shadowdancer class feature is useful to almost every character (except those that can't sneak). Class-feature overlap (as with multiple caster multiclasses) isn't the issue; the issue is that this class contributes nothing to a character's offenses.
That would counter the criticism that it doesn't mesh well with any of the obvious paths to qualify for the class. It grants some cool new features, but they're new abilities. The class sort of feels like multiclassing into cleric after several levels of wizard (with no Mystic Theurge on the horizon).I don't think that's a good comparison because almost every shadowdancer class feature is useful to almost every character (except those that can't sneak). Class-feature overlap (as with multiple caster multiclasses) isn't the issue; the issue is that this class contributes nothing to a character's offenses.
I think it's a reasonable comparison in the sense that it seems like a base class now; it has its own progression of new abilities that don't really synergize with any (other) base class.
Nope, never been there.
That would be the only other "Hydro" that I've heard of in the ten years that I've been using the handle. Which is surprising, really.
I think it's a reasonable comparison in the sense that it seems like a base class now; it has its own progression of new abilities that don't really synergize with any (other) base class.
Okay, I see what you're saying.
I do think that the stealth- and mobility-based class features actually have very good synergy for a melee sneak-attacker. You can shadow-jump past the ogre guards to kill the sorcerer, then shadow-jump back out when those ogre guards try to prison-beat you.
This would be a much more viable strategy if the shadowdancer contributed more to melee.
I also feel that spell-likes are great abilities for fighter-types because they lend a lot of versatility (considering that the other way to get those options would be to take 5 or 6 wizard levels), even though they have zero synergy. For characters who can already cast, though, they lend neither synergy or versatility. And at such a low caster level...
I've been thinking of making a campaign that was espionage based. Rather than smashing in doors and killing everything the characters would have goals to infiltrate and sabotage targets. This class would be pretty effective in a party designed for that sort of campaign. Even more so if it's a solo campaign or a very small party of stealth specialists (maybe an arcane trickster or a fey blooded sorcerer).
The idea of a Shadow Dancer villain is also intriguing, it would be quite frustrating for the PCs, I would probably make him an archer with 5 levels of ranger with Favored Enemy Human and Favored Enemy Elf instead of rogue. Having a villain that pops up and gets a few pot shots in when the PCs are engaged in an otherwise close combat would be really frustrating for them.
That said... very limited usefulness in a classic game.
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Shadowdancers are perfect reoccurring villains or mysterious rivals. In an Urban campaign a lone Shadowdancer could make a great foil for PC's involved in any adventure where recovering stolen items (or stealing the items themselves) is a common adventure. Think Oceans 12 and the Nightfox. As a Mastermind the Shadowdancers defense and mobility are perfect for escaping and letting mooks and minions fight. An Enchanter or Illusionist Shadowdancer could make a frustrating foe.
As I'll be starting a campaign shortly set in the Plane of Shadows my PC's will regularly be facing off against or even taking levels of Shadowdancer so my mind is rife with ideas for them...
--Vrock a bye Baby...
The more I think about it, the more I think that the shadowdancer would make a good base class, along the lines of the shadowcaster from the Tome of Magic (but hopefully better).
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Hide in Plain Sight is one of those abilities that is more or less powerful depending on how much the DM enforces the Stealth rules.
By the rules, for example, a Rogue can only stealth so long as they remain in cover or concealment. Often I've seen a DM go lax on this, to the point where they let the Rogue hop around a corner or get into the shadows to turn 'on' their Stealth, then just keep it on until they attack, even if they're in the middle of a field in broad daylight.
In that case, HiPS isn't very useful. If you actually enforce the normal Stealth rules though, then it is an amazing skill, easily worth the dip for most aspiring rogues.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Hide in Plain Sight is one of those abilities that is more or less powerful depending on how much the DM enforces the Stealth rules.
By the rules, for example, a Rogue can only stealth so long as they remain in cover or concealment. Often I've seen a DM go lax on this, to the point where they let the Rogue hop around a corner or get into the shadows to turn 'on' their Stealth, then just keep it on until they attack, even if they're in the middle of a field in broad daylight.
In that case, HiPS isn't very useful. If you actually enforce the normal Stealth rules though, then it is an amazing skill, easily worth the dip for most aspiring rogues.
Another annoying gray area is what happens when a character does manage to Stealth after the suprise round? What are the combat modifiers? Does the defender lose their Dex to AC? Is the Stealthed character considered Invisible for purposes of attack mods?
--Vrock n'Roll Hoochie-Coo
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This was covered in another thread and backed up with FAQs from Wizards, but basically... yes. If you can successfully Stealth and attack someone (assuming no crazy abilities on the defender's part) then you are considered invisible in regards to them, they're flat-footed against you, you can sneak attack, etc. etc.
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I'd replace the Rogue Talent progression with dice of Sneak Attack, the class already gets three advanced rogue talents as class abilities anyway. A Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10 would end up having 11 Rogue Talents (counting the class abilities of Slippery Mind, Defensive Roll, and Improved Evasion), even more than a Rogue 20! Replacing the Sneak Attack dice would mean a Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10 would have 8 talents and 8d6 of Sneak, a good mix of both but not as much as a pure Rogue 20.
I've never played as this PrC without being a Bard first. I almost never take this class if I start as a rogue. It really does have the stink of bard all over it, in the very good sense.
Yes both classes suck
stuff
sounds good
One level of shadowdancer is just fine for a monk (or ranger or rogue).
And Zark says: nor is it any good if you are a monk.
Edit:
As a class it's NO GOOD. But picking one (or two) level that's OK if you are a rogue, ranger, fighter, Bard...but not a Monk.Monks may not multiclass. So if you are a monk then it's 10 levels SD.
So a 5 level monk and a 10 level SD would have a flurry of +3/+3. Useless and no monk stuff like AC, Speed, unarmed damage, stack with SD.
Monk + shadow dancer = no
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As a class it's NO GOOD. But picking one (opr two) level thatä's OK if you are a rogue, ranger, fighter, Bard...but not a Monk.
Monks may not multiclass.
Yeah, they can. Pathfinder did away with all the restrictions but one: A non-lawful Monk is an ex-Monk and cannot gain any more levels in the class, but he or she retains all their abilities of the class.
"I just don't know what it is supposed to do."
It could be a good class for a recurring villain. He can scout the PC's without (probably) being detected. With an emphasis on defense and mobility, he can probably escape once the PC's are close to defeating his minions. If the PC's are defending an item that he wants, he has a good chance to bypass the PC's while his minions are making an obvious frontal assault on the target.
So it's a NPC class.
I don't buy the " it can be usefull in certain situations" argument. Paizo used that in the bard thread. Most classes can be good in most situation so my punish the SD (and bard)?"good class for a recurring villain"? Hey a rogue or a ranger and Greater Invisibility, Potion of Stealth, and / or Boots of Teleportati on and / or cape of the mountebank will do just fine...no they will do better.
What would people think of adding the following ability to the class:At each level, you gain one of the following:
Sneak attack progression
+1 effective level bardic knowledge
+1 effective level bardic spellcasting
+1 effective level of monk for calculating the effects of <some list of monk features> Sneak attack progression would probably need to be at a 1d6/3 level rate, like talents. Or maybe it grants d4 sneak attack dice instead, which would on average be about the same. (7 or 7.5 average damage per six levels)
That would counter the criticism that it doesn't mesh well with any of the obvious paths to qualify for the class. It grants some cool new features, but they're new abilities. The class sort of feels like multiclassing into cleric after several levels of wizard (with no Mystic Theurge on the horizon).
If I had mya way with it I would give it paths. You choose one of three paths. Rogue, Bard or Monk.
It feels Like a rogue or Bard class. But a 5 level rogue and a 10 level SD with 3 d6 sneak? Dangerous?
Also Rogue BAB at level 5 is +3, then +0 again when you pick the first level SD. There are som 3.x PrC with 3/4 BAB that start with +1 (+1, +2, +3, +0, +1, etc.). Sounds like a good idea in this case.
Yeah, they can. Pathfinder did away with all the restrictions but one: A non-lawful Monk is an ex-Monk and cannot gain any more levels in the class, but he or she retains all their abilities of the class.
As a class it's NO GOOD. But picking one (opr two) level thatä's OK if you are a rogue, ranger, fighter, Bard...but not a Monk.
Monks may not multiclass.
OK. My bad. But my point still stand. You can pick one or two levels but that's it. And a 5 monk / 2 SD would have a flurry of +3/+3. Not great.
A 5 monk / 10 SD would still have +3/+3 and that's really bad.
Yeah, they can. Pathfinder did away with all the restrictions but one: A non-lawful Monk is an ex-Monk and cannot gain any more levels in the class, but he or she retains all their abilities of the class.
As a class it's NO GOOD. But picking one (opr two) level thatä's OK if you are a rogue, ranger, fighter, Bard...but not a Monk.
Monks may not multiclass.OK. My bad. But my point still stand. You can pick one or two levels but that's it. And a 5 monk / 2 SD would have a flurry of +3/+3. Not great.
A 5 monk / 10 SD would still have +3/+3 and that's really bad.
If that is what the rules say rather than just a hint in a blog preview. Or it could work in a different manner than you give as facts. In which case, the point would not be standing at all nor would it have ever stood at all.
stuff
A) It was more than just a hint.
B) Flurry is just one problems a monk has to face. Speed, Damage, AC, KI etc. are other problems. These problems don't go away....or did you forget about them?I can't see a 5 monk / 10 SD. Nor can I see a 5 rogue / 10 SD or a 5 Bard / 10 SD. SD is just a suck class. But hey, It just a PrC. (The Bard is the really sad class).
[...]
the class is much easier to qualify for and the requirements MAKE SENSE. Some ranks in Stealth, a couple ranks in perform dance and the mobility feat chain. All things which make a lot of sense for a stealth/ mobility specialist.[...]
So only Dodge and Mobility? You no longer need Combat Reflexes?
How many ranks is stealth?Can you pick this PrC at level 5? That is, could you be 4 rogue / 1 SD?
stuffA) It was more than just a hint.
B) Flurry is just one problems a monk has to face. Speed, Damage, AC, KI etc. are other problems. These problems don't go away....or did you forget about them?
I can't see a 5 monk / 10 SD. Nor can I see a 5 rogue / 10 SD or a 5 Bard / 10 SD. SD is just a suck class. But hey, It just a PrC. (The Bard is the really sad class).
If you say so. I can just wait the few weeks to see the actual rules.
If you say so. I can just wait the few weeks to see the actual rules.
But you are still posting. Picking on my flurry argumnet while leaving all the others seams a bit silly. I'm fully aware that I don't know everyting but if this is the new SD then it's still suck after level 2. ...and yes I'm waiting for the final too.
if we could keep this thread on the shadow dancer please?
One thing someone pointed out to me is that the improvements to the shadow companion are good enough that it is a pretty nice offensive ability by itself. A 1d6 strength drain at 3/4 bab is actually a nice ability. Add haste and that goes to 2d6.
I'm not sure that's enough offense to offset the rest but it's significant.
Downloaded KQ10 this morning and suggesting you all to do the same :)
if we could keep this thread on the shadow dancer please?
Yes I can and yes I do. SD is A PrC so you start with a core class, right? Well what class?
As Shisumo said in this thread. "What the heck is it? Tell me that, and I'll tell you how to fix it."Well no one told him "what the heck it is", so here we are.
My point was: You don't start of as rogue and then go SD. Nor do you start of as a bard and you sure as h*ll don't start of as monk and then go SD. So I say I pretty much stays on topic.
One thing someone pointed out to me is that the improvements to the shadow companion are good enough that it is a pretty nice offensive ability by itself. A 1d6 strength drain at 3/4 bab is actually a nice ability. Add haste and that goes to 2d6.I'm not sure that's enough offense to offset the rest but it's significant.
Well I just have to wait and see how powerful it is. The problem in the beta was, the shadow was to weak. Too few Hit dice. ...and now if the compaion dies you may loose a level.
Shadow or not. The same question remains: What the heck is it? or perhaps: who is going to go 10 levels SD? Rogue? Fighter? Monk? Ranger? Bard?It's very odd. People have pointed out again and again that the SD needed a radical change. They apparently did some tweaking. Well some tweaking didn't fix the problem. Why? Some tweaking isn't enough.
Why? Some classes need more than a little tweaking.
Downloaded KQ10 this morning and suggesting you all to do the same :)
What is KQ10 and how to I get it? I getting the final and the PDF. Why should I get the KQ?
Downloaded KQ10 this morning and suggesting you all to do the same :)What is KQ10 and how to I get it? I getting the final and the PDF. Why should I get the KQ?
Normally, KQ stands for Kobold Quarterly, the RPG mag published by Wolfgang Baur, found here, and on Wolfgangs site, of which I don´t have the url at the moment. But I don´t see # 10 here right now? Anyway, for OGL stuff, you won´t find much better reading than this. In my eyes, KQ is a worthy successor for Dragon Magazine.
Stefan
Downloaded KQ10 this morning and suggesting you all to do the same :)What is KQ10 and how to I get it? I getting the final and the PDF. Why should I get the KQ?
You can check KQ from here. I think you should get it because it's really a great magazine and latest issue contains the full Shadowdancer prc.
Well I just have to wait and see how powerful it is. The problem in the beta was, the shadow was to weak. Too few Hit dice. ...and now if the compaion dies you may loose a level.
Shadow or not. The same question remains: What the heck is it? or perhaps: who is going to go 10 levels SD? Rogue? Fighter? Monk? Ranger? Bard?It's very odd. People have pointed out again and again that the SD needed a radical change. They apparently did some tweaking. Well some tweaking didn't fix the problem. Why? Some tweaking isn't enough.
Why? Some classes need more than a little tweaking.
Maybe I posted too much or not enough... I didn't want to spill all the beans because I didn't want to steal Kobold Quarterly's exclusive. It's a lot more than 'some tweaking' I think just the parts I listed are more that that.
I mispoke, you don't lose a level, you gain a negative level which is a much more temporary condition. Probably more frustrating is that you can't summon another for 30 days. Overall, I think I covered the changes to the Shadow above. Characters BAB, 1/2 characters HP, and characters (base) saves. Overall shadow is vastly better than it was previously. I'm not sure if that's enough to carry the offensive capacity of the class but it's much better than previous.
PS: I can't believe I didn't say Kobold Quarterly and put a link in the first post. Sorry about the confusion.
I've never played as this PrC without being a Bard first. I almost never take this class if I start as a rogue. It really does have the stink of bard all over it, in the very good sense.Yes both classes suck
Bards don't suck. They're not for your regular munchkin, but they don't suck.
In fact, our resident munchkin managed to powergame a bard, so there.
Bards don't suck. They're not for your regular munchkin, but they don't suck.
In fact, our resident munchkin managed to powergame a bard, so there.
stuff
OK. Thanx
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Disappointed!!!
I try to calm down and will try to post somthing positive tomorrow.
I leave you with a quote from another thread by the wise Shisumo:"I just don't know what it is supposed to do. It would make a nice twist on the "mystic ninja" idea - but it doesn't have sneak attack dice. It could be an interesting spin on a bard - but it improves neither spellcasting nor bardic performance. What the heck is it? [...]" And Zark says: nor is it any good if you are a monk.
I agree. They are only in Pathfinder because they are in 3.5, and they were only in 3.5 because they were in 3.0. I guess you'd have to ask the original creator of the class what they had in mind when they came up with it.
Yes both classes suck
Ever played a bard or shadowdancer then?
I played Bard. Don't need tp play SD to now there is somting wrong with the class.
I didn't say they suck
OK. My bad.
, they're probably one of the best classes to play in the entire game from a play-for-fun perspective. If you're looking to munchkin, no, but if you just want to have fun Very Yes
Play for fun? Do no damage is no fun. This game is a lot about combat and doing damage.
And hey, even if you don't wanna do damage - not even a bard would benefit from 10 levels of SD.
** spoiler omitted **Bards don't suck. They're not for your regular munchkin, but they don't suck.
In fact, our resident munchkin managed to powergame a bard, so there.
He found a way.
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** spoiler omitted **
Their fascinate ability alone is uber. Its nearly impossible to save against an average roll on the perform check for that ability just with Skill Focus (perform), max ranks, and a fair charisma (let alone munchkin out the charisma). Its stopped whole fights dead in its tracks.
Besides, its not like the bard cannot do damage. They're just better at putting their opponent into a lull and then coup de grace them.