Libris Mortis - Quicken Turning


General Discussion (Prerelease)


Hey everyone, I've been working on a BBEG who is going to hopefully be the campaign capper for our summer game, and I've been looking through Libris Mortis for some appropriately themed magic items, feats, monsters, etc. One of the feats I came across is Quicken Turning, which allows a user to turn or rebuke undead as a free action (but still only once per round). Awesome ability, right? And no prereqs but being able to turn or rebuke undead.

So since my bad guy can channel energy, I'm planning to give him this feat, but it will be way powerful with the way channel energy works in PFRPG. My thought is to limit it in some way, such as to impose a three per day rule as for Quicken Spell-like Ability, or to charge an additional use of channelling per quickened use. Or maybe both. Anybody have any thoughts, including if I should just let this go? Since the party has just reached third level then no matter how I implement it I'll give the party cleric the option to take this feat as well so it's all fair.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

If you use the Beta rules, I would add a prerequisite of some kind to the Quicken Turning feat to balance it out a bit. Requiring a Charisma score of 15+ or the Extra Turning feat could serve that purpose.

However, based on the Pathfinder preview, I believe that Turn Undead will be a feat, not a class ability, in the final version of the game. If that is the case, I would leave Quicken Turning as it is, since a Cleric would need to use 2 feats to get it - Turn Undead, and Quicken Turning.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Slightly off topic, but you may want to look for the Tomb-tainted Soul Feat. It allows the person to be healed by negative energy. Giving this to a necromancer with a legion of undead (Undead Leadership, anyone?) and he can heal his minions and himself and also harm the PCs at the same time. I realize that the update rules make this feat more subdued, but it still adds some cool flavor.

Scarab Sages

After reading the description of the feat, why change it or make it have prerequisites?

You still only get one turn a round. This feat takes something you get anyway and gives more flexibility to the ability. Isnt that what a feat is supposed to do?

What you should really be wary of is the Cleric alternate class feature from Complete Champion called Healing pool.

But that aside, I wouldnt change the feat "Quickend Turning" at all.

CC


I like the idea of a Charisma prerequisite, Larry, that limits the availability somewhat...with the ability to do damage/heal with channel energy, unlimited quickened channel can be pretty powerful, especially if used by a higher level cleric. I dunno, maybe it's something that lets them be really cool and totally worth playing in that context.

Hey Dustin, I already gave the dude the Tomb-tainted soul feat. Might as well heal himself as he sucks the life out of the party!! :)

Yeah Curt, I had that thought as well. I am interested in seeing how it plays out, maybe I'll just leave it as is and go with it. Our goal this summer is to get some familiarity with the Beta rules, so it's not like it's a serious campaign with long term emotional investments. :) Think I'll let it go and see what happens.

Scarab Sages

David Spaar wrote:

I like the idea of a Charisma prerequisite, Larry, that limits the availability somewhat...with the ability to do damage/heal with channel energy, unlimited quickened channel can be pretty powerful, especially if used by a higher level cleric. I dunno, maybe it's something that lets them be really cool and totally worth playing in that context.

Hey Dustin, I already gave the dude the Tomb-tainted soul feat. Might as well heal himself as he sucks the life out of the party!! :)

Yeah Curt, I had that thought as well. I am interested in seeing how it plays out, maybe I'll just leave it as is and go with it. Our goal this summer is to get some familiarity with the Beta rules, so it's not like it's a serious campaign with long term emotional investments. :) Think I'll let it go and see what happens.

Really, if you were to give the quicken turn any prerequisites, it might be a couple other turning feats like "Extra Turning" and "Empowered Turning". This would make taking "Quickened Turning" a 3rd level occurance at the earliest if the player were human.

At the same time, if these feats are taken that early, the player has (6+ charisma bonus) in channeling energy attempts and they affect more people or creatures. But, you can hold off the quickened part for a couple levels by doing this.

CC

Scarab Sages

Why don't you try is as written first?
Then you can see if it's really too powerful for your tastes.
I find it most often the case that people knee-jerk a reaction to something, without trying it out first, only to find out that it was not too bad in the first place. (I know I did it a few times before.)


Has anyone played with quickened turning applied to the new channel energy?

If so, how did it play?


Bitter Thorn wrote:

Has anyone played with quickened turning applied to the new channel energy?

If so, how did it play?

I've played a cleric with quicken turning applied to channel energy.

It really didn't seem overpowered to me, even when using Selective Channeling so that only allies got healed.

In the big fights that really needed healing, it was there to keep usually the tank alive and still be able to do something like bless, or protection from evil. One channel per turn only buys so much, and it wasn't like I was taking anyone out with it, I was simply keeping the team alive.


I tend to think it wouldn't be broken from the healing side, but I'm not sure about the damage side.

Scarab Sages

Yea, I think the main concern was the Healing blast radius as a quickened action, then blowing another heal spell as a standard action.

Is this right?

If so, you should not even worry about it. The whole reason paizo changed this feature for the clerics was to give more healing to low level characters so there was not alot of resting "in game".

I think this thread shows that we are still so used to a couple of combats then finding a place to hold up till our priest gets his spells back.

What could be better for a 7th lvl cleric than having 4-6 channels at 4d6 healing in a 30ft. radius. I say that is bad ass, just as Paizo planned. And a first level cleric with extra turning gets a minimum of 7 of these blasts at 1d6 each. Much nicer than the old 3.5 clerics.

hehe.

Oh yea, just so everyone knows, the Quickened Turning feat is also in the Complete Divine.

:D

CC

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

True, but what about the flip side? An evil cleric who has Quickened Turning would be doing a blanket xd6 of damage for free each round (until his turn attempts were spent) PLUS any damage spells and/or attacks. A first level evil cleric could have this feat and you could see a TPK of a 1st level party in a couple rounds...

Has anyone ever seen this scenario in game?


Larry Lichman wrote:

True, but what about the flip side? An evil cleric who has Quickened Turning would be doing a blanket xd6 of damage for free each round (until his turn attempts were spent) PLUS any damage spells and/or attacks. A first level evil cleric could have this feat and you could see a TPK of a 1st level party in a couple rounds...

Has anyone ever seen this scenario in game?

Haven't seen it yet, Larry, but we're playing tonight, and the party will definitely be facing some of Lamashtu's goblin servants who will use this. They're low level so only 2d6 per use, but the party is only level 3, so it could be brutal.

BTW - great last name, very appropriate for a thread I started because of Libris Mortis! :)


Quicken Channeling

Prerequisites: Channel Energy 3d6

Benefit: You may channel energy as a swift action, but reduce the damage or healing by 2d6. For example, as a 7th level cleric Kyra channels 4d6 positive energy. If she quickens her channel, she may either heal all living creatures 2d6, or deal undead 2d6 damage.

Normal: Channeling Energy is a standard action.


I have a few questions.

Has the feat been available to your players, via the Complete Divine or whatnot? It's one thing if they didn't think to go check for it and choose it, and another if this is the first time its been allowed in your campaign.

Are you wanting to introduce this to your game as just a bad guy ability or as a feat for everyone to take?

If its just a feat for the bad guy, well just give it to him and be done with it. Whatever pre-req you'd tack on he'd have anyway. If you get into the middle of the fight and he's cleaning their clocks, you can wing it and say "Uh let's call it 4 uses per day" and just stop using it. If you want you could even just say you whipped up a domain ability for him because we all know domains are kind of in limbo until the full book comes out anyway.

If you want to come up with something balanced for your party, there have been a few good suggestions. I might try it out as is and patch it up later if necessary. The Quickened Channeling feat directly above my post also looked like a good option.

You only have to come up with something balanced for YOUR game, not for all time. Unless you're going through characters pretty quickly hopefully that's about one cleric and whatever bad guys you choose to use.


In our game we allowed the Quickened Turning feat to be applied to Channel Energy, but added the prerequisite 5 HD.

We hoped this would curb the powerful advantage that it now gave but it has been somewhat unbalancing. With the ability to heal all allies in a certain radius plus the ability to still use move and standard actions (likely used to cast another spell) the cleric has become the adrenalin of the group. Said group simply walks over nearly every encounter.

On the other hand the player of said cleric is having a fantastic time. His standard action is available for things other than healing almost half the time.

With the changes coming up in the finished product (namely the Turn Undead feat, that allows for the turning of undead with Channel Energy) I would recommend leaving it as it is (but now requiring the Turn Undead feat, obviously). The Quickened Channeling feat presened up above presents a fantastic alternative.

Now I just need to convince my cleric player to switch...

Shadow Lodge

I would prefer if it used two (or more) Channel uses rather than cut down your effective level.


Beckett wrote:
I would prefer if it used two (or more) Channel uses rather than cut down your effective level.

This is the solution I would probably go with. 3 seems high since Channels per day don't really increase much at all, and 2 is a steep price but still one I wouldn't mind paying at times.

Shadow Lodge

Agreed, but we gotta wait and see how the final turns out.


As of now the feat hasn't been a problem. I mentioned to the player of the party cleric about it, and he was aware of it and planning to take it at 5th level, but wanted some other feats first. The big bad evil guy they'll (hopefully) get to face will have it, and he'll be high enough level to really dish out some damage. But these players are smart, and I'm sure they'll take account of this in some way - death ward, powerful ranged attacks, etc.

My overall suspicion is that it'll be more of an advantage to the party than to the villains. :)

Scarab Sages

If you're worried about evil clerics dealing waves of constant damage, in addition to their regular actions, then I'd say what the game needs is a good version of the old spells and powers that granted Turn Resistance, or to include it as a side-effect of existing spells like Consecrate.*

There wasn't a need for such a benefit before, since the living couldn't be harmed by rebuking attempts, but in a world where channeling now deals damage as default, there would have been someone research a counter.

*[EDIT] Can anyone with access to the Beta (or final rules) confirm if this has already been done?

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Roleplaying Game / General Discussion (Prerelease) / Libris Mortis - Quicken Turning All Messageboards
Recent threads in General Discussion (Prerelease)
Druid / Monk?