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This is a pet peeve of mine so pardon me for exploding over something every one else considers minor...
Leopards are big cats. They should be with the Tigers and Lions and getting Pounce. I pointed this out back during the beta but it must've been overlooked.
Big Cats:
Lion, Tiger, Leopard, Jaguar
Small Cats:
Everything else, but specifically, Cheetahs, Lynxes, Caracals, Servals, Bobcats, Cougars, and Florida Panthers.
This is going to bug me forever =p
This is a pet peeve of mine so pardon me for exploding over something every one else considers minor...
Leopards are big cats. They should be with the Tigers and Lions and getting Pounce. I pointed this out back during the beta but it must've been overlooked.
Big Cats:
Lion, Tiger, Leopard, JaguarSmall Cats:
Everything else, but specifically, Cheetahs, Lynxes, Caracals, Servals, Bobcats, Cougars, and Florida Panthers.This is going to bug me forever =p
Agreed. Leopards are no lightweights. "Leopards often hide their kills in dense vegetation or take them up trees, and are capable of carrying animals up to three times their own weight this way." -Wikipedia
I know this is true from a pure species perspective, but leopards and jaguars are roughly half the size of lions and tigers. If there was a "medium cat" category, leopards and jaguars would be the border between such a group and big cats. They should get pounce, I agree.
Note that in reference to the druid preview, however, snow leopards are not like true leopards, being much smaller still. As such, they are more similar in size to cougars and cheetahs than to leopards and jaguars. These would be in my "medium cat" group rather than "small cats" like the lynx or serval.
Nothing in the hyena stats reflects the fact that they have biting power far in excess of anything else their size, either. Nor does "Int 2" come close to modelling the complex social intelligence of apes.
D&D doesn't make even a token effort towards realism when it comes to critters.
Also, from WikiAnswers.com:
"Unlike other big cats, jaguars kill prey by crushing the spinal column and must have a much stronger bite in order to do so. This means that the shape of their skull is unique among the cat species. As a result, they have the strongest bite-force of any member of the cat family -- even stronger than lions and tigers."
Nothing in the hyena stats reflects the fact that they have biting power far in excess of anything else their size, either. Nor does "Int 2" come close to modelling the complex social intelligence of apes.
D&D doesn't make even a token effort towards realism when it comes to critters.
Also, from WikiAnswers.com:
"Unlike other big cats, jaguars kill prey by crushing the spinal column and must have a much stronger bite in order to do so. This means that the shape of their skull is unique among the cat species. As a result, they have the strongest bite-force of any member of the cat family -- even stronger than lions and tigers."
Yep. Usually if animals play a major part in a scene I'm running, I do a bit of research and customize the standard stats as needed. I just checked the leopard entry, and at least in standard d20 3.5 they already get pounce. As such, I'm guessing the OP's rant is specifically against the snow leopard? Based on my quick research for these guys, if anything I'd start with the cheetah stats and give them a special Leap ability (in place of Sprint), Snow-walking (ignore/reduce penalties in snow/wintry weather), and a bonus to Stealth checks in snow or white backgrounds.
This is a pet peeve of mine so pardon me for exploding over something every one else considers minor...
Leopards are big cats. They should be with the Tigers and Lions and getting Pounce. I pointed this out back during the beta but it must've been overlooked.
Big Cats:
Lion, Tiger, Leopard, JaguarSmall Cats:
Everything else, but specifically, Cheetahs, Lynxes, Caracals, Servals, Bobcats, Cougars, and Florida Panthers.This is going to bug me forever =p
Leopards and Cougars are roughly the same size. On average a leopard weighs between 80 and 200 pounds for male. The cougar weighs on average between 115 and 260 pounds. The Jaguar weight on average between 124 and 350 pounds. A panther is either Cougar, leopard, or Jaguar depending where on the planet you happen to be and has more to do with coloring than species.
Now compared to Bengal Tiger which weighs between 450-550 pounds that's a big difference. A lion is about the same size but average 500-550 pounds. There are smaller lions and tiger sub species though.
So I wouldn't call Leopards large cats based on D&D sizes. They'd be medium size where the Tiger is large. Still size should have no bearing one why they don't' have pounce, they should as that's what they do.
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I agree, there are 4 species of "Big Cat" Lion, Tiger, Jaguar, Leopard
Now, the way big cats actually hunt is to hit with claws and hang on,(free grapple) then try to pull down the prey (entangle/trip) and get free bite attacks during the grapple.
smaller cats use their back claws to gore more than smaller cats.
So I wouldn't call Leopards large cats based on D&D sizes. They'd be medium size where the Tiger is large. Still size should have no bearing one why they don't' have pounce, they should as that's what they do.
I assumed the OP's classification is based on the real world, i.e. tigers, lions, leopards, and jaguars are all in the same genus (panthera) that qualifies them as "big cats." By D&D classification, I'd agree that lions and tigers are Large size versus leopards and jaguars being Medium size.
Now, the way big cats actually hunt is to hit with claws and hang on,(free grapple) then try to pull down the prey (entangle/trip) and get free bite attacks during the grapple.
Except the jaguar, which kills with a massive leaping bite. Toronto Zoo has a useful illustrated step-by-step guide: "Stalk... Pounce... KILL!... Drag."
I t would be nice if someone did a game book based upon animals giving them more realistic, instead of metagame statistics.
Already done by a company called Betabunny. I've got their preview Bears PDF and it is actually pretty good.
Leopards and Cougars are roughly the same size.Cougars though, are often older.
Nice...
Cats with rake attacks should have Improved Grab to go with it. Given the daily mauling dealt out by my Tiny cat, I don't recall that cats lack the ability or inclination to grapple something and bite/claw/claw/rake/rake it do shreds. ^_^ House rules for the win!
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Except the jaguar, which kills with a massive leaping bite. Toronto Zoo has a useful illustrated step-by-step guide: "Stalk... Pounce... KILL!... Drag."Now, the way big cats actually hunt is to hit with claws and hang on,(free grapple) then try to pull down the prey (entangle/trip) and get free bite attacks during the grapple.
no, they all kill with a big, it's the location of the bite, most go for the jugular, the jaguar still grabs and then bites, they just go for the spine instead...since if something can't move it's rear legs it's not gonna run very far...
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I agree that Snow Leopards would be small cats, and wasn't in particular referring to Lini's companion. I was referring to the fact that "Small Cat" base stats listed at the bottom of the preview specifically notes Cheetahs and Leopards. Honestly both categories should just get pounce since Cheetahs are the only cat species particularly noted for speed, and even they still pounce.
Also note I am aware that panthers are just leopards/jaguars. I only mentioned Florida Panthers as they are a separate species from the others (and are more akin to Cougars I believe)
I'm going to be heavily house-ruling the druid as it is anyway (I hate the new wildshape rules) but this is just overly annoying me.
Creative Director
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I agree that Snow Leopards would be small cats, and wasn't in particular referring to Lini's companion. I was referring to the fact that "Small Cat" base stats listed at the bottom of the preview specifically notes Cheetahs and Leopards. Honestly both categories should just get pounce since Cheetahs are the only cat species particularly noted for speed, and even they still pounce.
Also note I am aware that panthers are just leopards/jaguars. I only mentioned Florida Panthers as they are a separate species from the others (and are more akin to Cougars I believe)
I'm going to be heavily house-ruling the druid as it is anyway (I hate the new wildshape rules) but this is just overly annoying me.
What it comes down to is this: We had 2 categories of cat for druids to pick from... those based on cats who are CR 2 in their monster incarnation, and those based on cats closer to CR 4–5 in their monster incarnation. Lumping them all under "Big Cat" robs choices from the druid, because it makes all of these cats, which are quite different creatures stats-wise in the Bestiary, the SAME creature when they become animal companions.
So we needed to set them up as two different categories. And those categories needed names, and since there's not a real-world analogue for these categories (since the real world doesn't take CR into account), we had to make them up.
At one point, we had the leopard/cheetah category labeled as "Hunting Cats" and the lion/tiger category labeled as "Big Cats," but since tigers and lions are hunting cats, that's silly. I think a better solution would have simply to call the one category "Cheetah/Leopard" and the other "Lion/Tiger," but then the two cat categories would not be next to each other when you alphabetize things.
And then, of course, there's the fact that we had to make some choices purely because we wanted to fit all of the animal companions in a relatively limited space; putting in a seperate entry for leopard, cheetah, lion, and tiger would have wreaked havoc on that part of the book's layout, so we more or less had to lump them together there.
In any event, this method of distinguishing the cats exists ONLY on the one page in the Pathfinder Core RPG in the section that talks about druid animal companions. In the bestiary, we have cheetahs and leopards on one page (filed under Cat, Leopard and Cat, Cheetah), lions on another page (Lion and Dire Lion (Spotted Lion), and tigers on a third page (Tiger and Dire Tiger (smilodon). The distinction of "big" cats and "small" cats is a purely artificial one we invented for the sake of animal companion nomenclature and do not maintain anywhere else.
The way druid animal companions work is an ENTIRELY different set of rules from those that present animals as monsters you fight, in any case. It's a really pretty cool setup, since it allows druids to have what would normally be really high CR animals as companions at 1st level without being overpowered, and allows the druid to KEEP the same animal as a companion all the way to the highest level. So when we stat up Lini for PFRPG, she can have her snow leopard companion at 1st level; she doesn't have to wait until 4th level to get a leopard (which is why when we statted her up in Pathfinder #13 at 1st level her animal companion was a hawk).
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Spoiler:I agree that Snow Leopards would be small cats, and wasn't in particular referring to Lini's companion. I was referring to the fact that "Small Cat" base stats listed at the bottom of the preview specifically notes Cheetahs and Leopards. Honestly both categories should just get pounce since Cheetahs are the only cat species particularly noted for speed, and even they still pounce.
Also note I am aware that panthers are just leopards/jaguars. I only mentioned Florida Panthers as they are a separate species from the others (and are more akin to Cougars I believe)
I'm going to be heavily house-ruling the druid as it is anyway (I hate the new wildshape rules) but this is just overly annoying me.
What it comes down to is this: We had 2 categories of cat for druids to pick from... those based on cats who are CR 2 in their monster incarnation, and those based on cats closer to CR 4–5 in their monster incarnation. Lumping them all under "Big Cat" robs choices from the druid, because it makes all of these cats, which are quite different creatures stats-wise in the Bestiary, the SAME creature when they become animal companions.
So we needed to set them up as two different categories. And those categories needed names, and since there's not a real-world analogue for these categories (since the real world doesn't take CR into account), we had to make them up.
At one point, we had the leopard/cheetah category labeled as "Hunting Cats" and the lion/tiger category labeled as "Big Cats," but since tigers and lions are hunting cats, that's silly. I think a better solution would have simply to call the one category "Cheetah/Leopard" and the other "Lion/Tiger," but then the two cat categories would not be next to each other when you alphabetize things.
And then, of course, there's the fact that we had to make some choices purely because we wanted to fit all of the animal companions in a relatively limited space; putting in a seperate entry for leopard, cheetah, lion, and tiger would...
I agree with everything you said, if I had done it though it would've been:
Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger, Leopard)Cat, Small (Cheetah, Cougar, Lynx)
It's an easy house rule and certainly not turning me off of PFRPG, just a little pet peeve. Glad you're keeping them separate in the beastiary. Our group has been using the Serval from Sandstorm for quite some time to represent a 1st level druid choice for a cat. It's basically a wolf but with claws and pounce instead of trip.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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I t would be nice if someone did a game book based upon animals giving them more realistic, instead of metagame statistics.Already done by a company called Betabunny. I've got their preview Bears PDF and it is actually pretty good.
Thanks for posting this! The "Predators" book was on my radar for a while, then I stopped spending as much money on 3rd party stuff, so it was a casualty. I've heard very good things about it, so I'm going to pick up a copy today.
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It would be nice if someone did a game book based upon animals giving them more realistic, instead of metagame statistics.
Indeed.
Hyenas typically chase down prey with unnatural endurance, allowing their much swifter prey to exhaust itself and catching up with the inexorable patience of Jason Voorhees. The Run and / or Endurance feat would be logical bonus feats (as well as the ability to Track by Scent), but instead the hyena has Alertness listed, despite not being reknowned for it's keener-than-normal animal senses.
It's also possible that a hyena could count as having Improved Natural Attack for it's bite.
Wolf tactics would be awesomely fun to use in an encounter. The wolves in front of the prey take the equivalent of a total defense action (or, at least, fight defensively), while those to the sides Aid Other harrying the prey, and the one's to the rear go for the takedown. It's beautiful team-work, and the wolves change roles as the prey animal turns around to face it's attackers, with the one who has biting it's flanks shifting to defensive, while those who were taunting it to it's face move in for an attack. Like most predators, the preferred method of killing is bite, grapple, chokehold/suffocate, but there isn't really a solid chokehold/suffocate option in d20, barring pillaging from 3rd party sources (such as the Chokehold feat in Mutants & Masterminds).
Just about every animal would likely have a few ranks in Intimidate, in addition to standard beastie survival skills like Survival, Listen, Spot, Move Silently and / or Hide. (A few even have Craft skills, such as spiders and songbirds and bees and beavers.) Intelligence scores would range from 1 to 2 (most bugs) to four (smarter animals) to perhaps even six (animals reputed to have 'human-like' intelligence, like dolphins, which, in a fantasy world, might well be almost as smart as their fans think they are).
Leopards and Cougars are roughly the same size.Cougars though, are often older.
And very wealthy/successful
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And very wealthy/successfulLeopards and Cougars are roughly the same size.Cougars though, are often older.
Heehee....
Come on guys we are going to play DnD for real again.Awwww man! Not the drains again!!
No.No.No. We are playing pathfinder for real now. We are going to get animal companions.
What?....
Zoologists, interestingly enough, only classify Big Cats and the rest based upon the ability to actually Roar instead of just growl. This means only Lions, Tigers, and Jaguars are actually Big cats in scientific classification.
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Zoologists, interestingly enough, only classify Big Cats and the rest based upon the ability to actually Roar instead of just growl. This means only Lions, Tigers, and Jaguars are actually Big cats in scientific classification.
Leopards are included in that group. See Panthera
North American cougars/panthers are screaming cats, but they are large and intimidating. They've got nothing on a Siberian tiger, of course.
"Panther" is a pretty generic name for a medium-sized cat.
This topic is probably one of the less pedantic sorts of things RPG designers have to deal with ;)
North American cougars are screaming cats
Especially when they find the right young guy...