Hopefully others can use this thread to clarify questions arising in this adventure. If you happen to see another thread, please link post a link in this one to try and keep things tied together.
Chapter 1: The Bastards of Erebus
Chapter 2: The Sixfold Trial
Chapter 3: What Lies in Dust
Chapter 4: The Infernal Syndrome
Chapter 5: Mother of Flies
Chapter 6: The Twice-Damned Prince
Creative Director
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Thing 1: As far as I can tell, Ecarrdian can't wear leather armor and gain the full benefit of his Dexterity (modified by Intelligence, as per the duelist prestige class). Leather armor's max Dex bonus is +6. This can easily be fixed by replacing his +5 leather armor with bracers of armor +5; it reduces his AC by 2 in the process, but that's not too bad.
This is probably and technically correct... but personally I think that the restrictions on the duelist are a bit too harsh. I like the concept of letting the duelist's Int bonus to his AC be a stealthy way to bypass armor restrictions, and I don't feel that overpowers the class at all, to be honest. They're still limited to wearing light armor, after all. Up to you, but I'm hesitant to call this an error since I'm kinda stubborn on this ruling. ;-)
Thing 2: Iyis, the 20th-level cleric of Mammon, is wearing both a magical chain shirt and a robe of eyes. I thought wearing armor took up the body magical item slot?
Yeah; as Gorbacz points out, body and armor are different slots. You can wear robes over armor.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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p. 10 on the cutpurse stat block, I think they are missing a feat. As 2nd level humans, they should have 2 feats (1 for being human and 1 for HD), and they also have the finese rogue talent that gives them weapon finese, but their only other feat is improved initiative.
Also, not sure if this is something new or not, but why does Seltyiel have both a +1 bow and +1 arrows? The bonuses don't stack.
Soon to come! Hey, there a reason these threads aren't stickied like in the Legacy of Fire area? They're the best resource for DMs that want more info or to find errors quickly. :)
I think the reason for this is that the request to Sticky was made around the time of LoF. Since the posts have to wait for all the names of the modules to be announced and the forums created, they probably just forget about it.
I can create a post for the web guru's to look into stickies for these.
PS: Request submitted.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The PCs can make public their affiliation with the Hellknights by spending fame points. The adventure mentions that if they don't, the Hellknight Siege is more deadly and dangerous (p. 23). However, the Hellkngiht Siege doesn't mention this at all (p. 26). What's supposed to happen in this case? An increase in the number of besiegers?
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Creative Director
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This adventure had an unfortunately rough time during design and development... and a few bits of confusion crept through as a result, unfortunately. BUT! Here's answers!
1) The cutpurses on page 10 should also probably have Ligntning Reflexes. They're jumpy.
2) Seltyiel's arrows don't stack with his bow. That's an error, but not one that's that major. Just a poor way for him to spend a couple hundred gp.
3) I've made the thread sticky. Eew.
4) Varpnall's treasure got cut at the last minute so the adventure will fit. There's already PLENTY of treasure in the adventure, in any case, so his missing treasure isn't going to hurt anyone. If you want him to have treasure, go ahead and give him a 2,500 gp ruby, a 500 gp silver ring, and a set of gloves of arrow snaring. Or something else that adds up to 7,000 gp.
5) If the PCs don't make public their affiliation with the Hellknight siege, increase the number of Council Captians involved by 2 and the thieves by 6.
Very minor quibble:
What's up with Seltyiel's memorized spell list in his stat block? It largely replicates Seoni's spell list and contains few Conjuration spells.
It largely replicates Seoni's spell list and contains few Conjuration spells.
Yeah, I thought that was curious myself.
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Creative Director
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Very minor quibble:
What's up with Seltyiel's memorized spell list in his stat block? It largely replicates Seoni's spell list and contains few Conjuration spells.
To a certain extent, the spells we pick are limited by length; often, we'll pick a spell that's shorter than one that's longer simply because the shorter one will fit in the space we have for the PC. Spells with names like "summon monster IV" will always lose out in this fight against spells with names like "ice storm."
As for his spell selection... the PCs are often done at the very last minute of a Pathfinder's cycle before it ships to the printer, and thus it's easier for us to NOT get too creative with the spell selection stuff.
EDIT: OH! Just realized one more likely explanation... and this is probably the MOST likely one. When we originally statted Seltyiel up for Second Darkness, he was an evoker. And I bet a lot of his prepared spells ended up staying the same as his core selection of spells as a result.
I bet when he shows up the next time we'll change his wizard specialty again, just to be pills...
Varpnall has a description of:
Male advanced plague bearer otyugh (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 223,
Advanced Bestiary 194)Is the Advanced Bestiary actually Bestiary II?
I think it's Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary (a 3.5 book of templates).
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Creative Director
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Varpnall has a description of:
Male advanced plague bearer otyugh (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 223,
Advanced Bestiary 194)Is the Advanced Bestiary actually Bestiary II?
I think it's Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary (a 3.5 book of templates).
Correct. Advanced Bestiary is a big book of templates, and one of the most-commonly used d20 resources we draw from at Paizo for adventure paths.
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Correct. Advanced Bestiary is a big book of templates, and one of the most-commonly used d20 resources we draw from at Paizo for adventure paths.Varpnall has a description of:
Male advanced plague bearer otyugh (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 223,
Advanced Bestiary 194)Is the Advanced Bestiary actually Bestiary II?
I think it's Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary (a 3.5 book of templates).
Oooh...shiny...
Thank you very much. I'll remember to pick that one up, looks pretty useful.
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Creative Director
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1) Who drew the awesome picture of Ara Verennie on page 38?
It wasn't Eva or Tyler. Beyond that I can't say...
2) I'm curious as to the location of the brain or brains of the Vouivre in the bestiary on page 88, and in particular how the monster interacts with being walloped with a vorpal sword? The creature is described as 'Large monstrous humanoid (aquatic)' which along with the fact that a Vouivre does not get two sets of actions inclines me to think that there is just the one brain, in the attractive woman part of the creature, but I may be in error here. If there is only one brain, does an otherwise uninformed wielder of a vorpal sword have to nominate which 'head' he or she was going for upon scoring a head taking hit, or should it be randomly determined if the wielder lopped off the 'false head' (with no brain) or the 'real' one?
(Conceivably the brain might not even be in either head, but somewhere in the body, rendering the creature completely immune to vorpal hits.)
As it's a monstrous humanoid, the vouivre's brain is in its girl head, not its dragon-headed tail. A vorpal strike lops of her humanoid head.
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Creative Director
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Encounter 'J' ('A Noble Lure') allows victorious PCs to spend 2 fame points to gain 1 additional popularity point above and beyond what they would otherwise gain from the encounter, with no other discernible benefit for the expenditure of fame. What is the point of this? The PCs are better off not spending the fame points, as unspent fame points count towards the final 'fate of Westcrown' check at the end of the adventure just the same as popularity points acquired, and having two unspent fame points is twice the advantage of having one additional popularity point that they could have been traded in for in this context.
My current thought is that it might make more sense if the PCs have to put in some work carousing and making a minor expenditure of gold to gain the extra popularity point from this encounter, instead of spending fame points.
It's basically an error, since spending fame points to increase popularity isn't a good idea... at least, it wasn't once we let unspent fame points count toward popularity. That wasn't the case when I was developing area J, since at that point the end of the adventure hadn't been written yet.
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Encounter 'J' ('A Noble Lure') allows victorious PCs to spend 2 fame points to gain 1 additional popularity point above and beyond what they would otherwise gain from the encounter, with no other discernible benefit for the expenditure of fame. What is the point of this?It's basically an error, since spending fame points to increase popularity isn't a good idea... at least, it wasn't once we let unspent fame points count toward popularity. That wasn't the case when I was developing area J, since at that point the end of the adventure hadn't been written yet.
James, can you comment more on this. I noticed that this didn't make sense as well. So if unspent Fame Points just become Popularity Points, is there any real difference between Fame and Popularity?
It might be helpful/interesting to hear a little bit about the original concept, even if it didn't make it to the final version. Throughout the adventure path, players accumulate Fame and by the last adventure, they can start "spending" Fame resolve certain situations. But it's a double edged sword because the final encounter requires a Fame check, and if they've spent too much, they'll probably end up with a lower result.
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Im not James but I found an easy solution is to say they get to keep the inital fame total for the final check but they can only use fame points up to the amount they had at the start of the adventure. That way fame points are a limited resource (how limited depends on how well your group did in gaining them to begin with) but using them is not going to completly do your players over at the end.
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Im not James but I found an easy solution is to say they get to keep the inital fame total for the final check but they can only use fame points up to the amount they had at the start of the adventure. That way fame points are a limited resource (how limited depends on how well your group did in gaining them to begin with) but using them is not going to completly do your players over at the end.
Check p. 9; fame checks are always made using the party's initial fame score.
U
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Creative Director
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James, can you comment more on this. I noticed that this didn't make sense as well. So if unspent Fame Points just become Popularity Points, is there any real difference between Fame and Popularity?
It might be helpful/interesting to hear a little bit about the original concept, even if it didn't make it to the final version. Throughout the adventure path, players accumulate Fame and by the last adventure, they can start "spending" Fame resolve certain situations. But it's a double edged sword because the final encounter requires a Fame check, and if they've spent too much, they'll probably end up with a lower result.
What's in the adventure IS the original concept. It's a bit rough around the edges, alas.
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I believe you have miss understood what I have said. I meant they have a limited number of points to spend on re-rolls and the like but that they keep the inital fame bonus for the popularity check at the end.
You're right; I don't understand. How is that different from what's written in the adventure?
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Okay ill try and use an example at what Im getting at lets say the group has 20 fame points at the start of the adventure
Pathfinder as written
You get an inital fame score of 20 which you get to use for all fame checks
You get a pool of 20 fame points which can be spent on rerolls or specific tasks and whatever is left over is added to the final Popularity point score at the end
My suggestion
You get an inital fame score of 20 which you get to use for all fame checks plus the 20 points are automaticly added to the total popularity score at the end
You get a pool of 20 fame points ehich can be spent on rerolls or specific tasks only since the 30 points are already added to the popularity score any remainders are not added at the end.
My suggestion means players are not sabotaging themselves by using fame points but they stilll dont get an unlimited supply.
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I am preparing to run CoT with a group or two and, in order to see how much leeway there really is with collecting Fame Points (FP), did a bit of number crunching...
The Bastards of Erebus 7
The Sixfold Trial 5
what lies in Dust 4
The Infernal Syndrome 6
Mother of Flies 4
Making for a total of 26 FP. You can earn a total of 22 Popularity Points (PP) in The Twice-Damned Prince.
Now, if we assume the best case, we have a character with a starting Charisma of 20, raised three times on the way to level 13.
His Fame Check will be:
Fame Points 26
Cha 23 +6
Leadership Feat +4
For a total of 1d20+36
Add to that:
PP 22
Unspent FP 26
Aid another +6
(Note that I assumed they wouldn't spend even 5 FP on the nobles as that would have cost them 1 point in the end. -5 FPs, +4 on Fame Checks)
(Note that I also assumed a party of four players, for a +6 Aid another. I won't penalize a smaller party just for having mastered the AP with one less friend to help out)
Thus, you get a total of 1d20+90 making the highest, possible end result under perfect conditions a 110.
Four endings:
Horrible ending: 0-50
Bad ending: 51-89
Good ending: 90-110
Great ending: 111+
Now, that the best ending is unattainable under perfect conditions strikes me as odd. :)
Ideas:
- - making used FPs still count at the end would enable the group to get a +4 to that total.
- Eagle's Splendor for another +4
Any other ideas how to increase that score?
Even with that, assuming they get every single FP and PP, have a maxed-out CHA-character with Leadership, and remember to put on that 2nd-level Spell just before the big negotiations (and aren't dispelled or something by wary high-level negotiators from Egorian) they now have 1d20+98, for a 40% chance on a d20 to get the best ending.
And that's probably the worst thing for me: A die roll decides the ending. All these heroics to build up a big modifier for the one big toss o' the die? It's not the heroes' actions, but really that one roll of the die that decides the Fate of Westcrown? Hm.
Time to look at the positive side of things: Possible solutions!
First off: Don't let them know just how exactly the mechanics work, at least not for that last one. Make it seem important. The last, Big Thing to do. Another chance for the group's 'face' to shine after all that bloody sword-wielding an' all. But don't let them get to the conclusion I reached a few lines up: "Meh, it all hinged on a stupid CHA check made by the bard. And the bugger botched it!"
But here starts the questions:
- 1) How do I do that without just arbitrarily setting the ending I like to whatever result the party gets?
2) Should I change the scale, make it more forgiving, but then stick to it so that their actions matter?
3) Should I, in addition to 2), make FPs spendable again, so that not spending any FPs at all will guarantee the best ending, no matter the die roll, but make it really hard to survive the adventure, whereas a slightly sub-optimal approach will still make sure the bad ending won't happen?
4) What would be a good scale? 0-45/46-70/71-95/96+?
Also some others:
- 1)Any other ideas how to increase the score at the end? I didn't, for example, check the magic items in the AP to see if there was any that gave a CHA bonus...
2) Ideas on how to treat the entire affair so as to not get into mechanics too much, not distract from the game too much, but still make them able to make informed decisions?
I mean, I certainly don't want the bad ending to be the standard one, that seems a bit off to me. But perhaps I miscounted or am missing some important bonusses?
TerrorTigr, if it helps, someone did this same calculation in this thread:
Fame Point Summary
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Being mayor of Westcrown or Commander of the guard is not quite like being Lord of your own, personal manor. Westcrown is a city that will kill you if it doesn't like you, even if you're the mayor. Especially if you're the mayor.
While I agree that the 'heroic' ending should be reserved for parties who do everything right and have a tremendous following, it should be given to those parties.
Vira Ciucci is a big old manor house, and the northern half is routinely rented out to other nobles. This is top-of-the-line accommodation. What would this cost? Even a vague price would help?
500 gp / month? Twice that?
Paralictor Gonville Chard on page 22 appears to have some incorrect feats, namely Two-Weapon Defense and Two-Weapon Fighting. I'm assuming at some point he was originally designed as wielding dual longswords but he's only listed as having one and the text states he wields it two-handed so the feats should be replaced.
Any suggestions?
For completeness, the Corna Barracks map on page 41 is missing the P5 (Armory) location.
Im curious, does anyone else feel the battle with the 4 Erinyes is a TPK waiting to happen? I see no reason the Erinyes would not just all teleport 150feet above the Barge and then in unison blast the people below with Unholy Blight (repeatedly).
Even if everyone saves the average damage is 45pts per round. Not even a level 13 group can keep up with that.
Note: If the group is geared for such a battle (flight, summon monster, etc) it would not be that big a problem, but a group that is not geared for ranged combat is probably dead.
- Gauss
That seems correct to my reading of it... sort of.
It seems from a look at the grappling rules (and handy flowchart) that, technically, the Ebon Acolytus can't actually use its ability Prostration.
The conflict seems to come from:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
and
As a standard action, an ebon acolytus can
attempt to force any creature it is currently grappling into a
sacrificial position. The construct must make an additional
combat maneuver check against its target to reposition
it into an advantageous position. If it succeeds, and the
victim remains grappled at the beginning of the construct’s
next round, the ebon acolytus may make use of its sacrifice
ability.
Otherwise, it's a nifty trick gaining two standard actions in a single turn.
Sacrifice kind of works based on the wording,
As a full-round action, an ebon acolytus may make
a coup de grace attack with its dagger against any target
currently grappled into place using its prostration ability.
... as it could be read to mean "a creature that has been grappled into place and is still there (though not necessarily still grappled)." (which could be done by tying them up or by restraining them or something similar).
Really, I think this could be resolved if the abilities were reworded as below (and this is how I'm going to run them):
An ebon acolytus can attempt to force any creature it has grappled for at least one round into a sacrificial position. In any round after the first in a particular grapple, after the ebon acolytus successfully maintains the grapple on its turn, the construct must make an additional combat maneuver check as a move action against a target it has grappled or pinned this round to re-position it into an advantageous position. If the check succeeds, and the victim remains grappled at the beginning of the construct’s next round, the ebon acolytus may make use of its Sacrifice ability. An ebon acolytus gains a +2 bonus on its CMB for the purposes of making this check if it is adjacent to an altar or similar site of ceremonial bloodletting. Using this ability allows the ebon acolyte to continue grappling.
An ebon acolytus may make a coup de grace attack with its dagger against any affected by its prostration ability the previous round. As a full-round action, the ebon acolytus first maintains the grapple on this round (making the CMB roll as normal), after which the target is affected by the coup de grace attack by the construct's weapon and must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die as normal. If the target is killed by this attack, his soul is sent straight to the plane of the being to which the altar is dedicated, regardless of alignment, and cannot be raised from the dead except by a cleric sworn to the same deity or by a miracle or wish spell. A creature under the effects of a protection from evil spell—or similar spell that opposes the alignment of the god the ebon acolytus is crafted to serve—may be resurrected as normal.
Anyway, I think that clears up any confusion from action-types.
In this case, it does become:
Round 1: Grapple (CMB check)
Round 2: Grapple and Prostration (two CMB checks)
Round 3: Sacrifice (CMB check and force fortitude save)
While it's still a nearly-insta-kill move, it's nice because it technically allows PCs three rounds (and up to three dice rolls) before forcing the save-or-die effect.
Technically, in my original draft of Prostration, I realized that it could be done in the first round of grappling... which isn't bad for some playstyles, but others it might not go too well. Anyway, for those that would prefer that version...
An ebon acolytus can attempt to force any creature it has grappled into a sacrificial position. After the ebon acolytus successfully maintains the grapple on its turn, the construct must make an additional combat maneuver check as a move action against a target it has grappled or pinned this round to re-position it into an advantageous position. If the check succeeds, and the victim remains grappled at the beginning of the construct’s next round, the ebon acolytus may make use of its Sacrifice ability. An ebon acolytus gains a +2 bonus on its CMB for the purposes of making this check if it is adjacent to an altar or similar site of ceremonial bloodletting. Using this ability allows the ebon acolyte to continue grappling.
Anyway, this might need to be faq'd, because, as written, it doesn't quite work.
Im curious, does anyone else feel the battle with the 4 Erinyes is a TPK waiting to happen?
- Gauss
No. A party of that level should be able to handle it. At the very least, the party can spread out. That will reduce the damage a lot.
And it's a city. You should be able to kick down a door and take cover, even if you never get to buy shoes there again.
And, I don't know how you get to be a party of that level without ranged weapons. With the appropriate spells for level, PCs should be able to fly up there also.
Of course, look at your group. Maybe they can't fight flying opponents well. In that case, reduce the number or replace the encounter with something else. Those Chortov devils would be a nice switch for a melee heavy party.
Glad I could help, and it sounds neat!
Make sure to drop plenty of hints about the history in places that Players can look into, if they want.
Also, make sure that somehow the players know they can run away (that they won't be chased forever) and that it's a good idea.
Whew! It has been a two-year odyssey, but we have just finished the Twice-Damned Prince and the Council of Thieves campaign. There were highs. There were lows. We had a great time.
Okay so I know that this path is old and is a bit rough in some, but it also looks like it has a lot of good stuff in it. It's been quite a read through piecing together, but there is something that is really bothering that's brought up in #5 and this one; If tieflings are looked down so much by both aristocrats and the poor, why on Golarion did Sidonai think that having a tiefling son would be respected? Was he just dumb or super misinformed? Did I miss something mentioned elsewhere?
Contributor
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My best guess is that he thought Eccardian's heritage, as the literal son of one of the rulers of Hell, would be enough to overcome that bias and guarantee his son's rise to power. So... dumb, or overly optimistic, or whatever you want to call it.
Interestingly, if not for the PCs, Sidonai would be right about his son's destiny (if not in the way he'd expected). ^_^
My reading of it was that Sidonai didn't really care whether his son was respected, per se, as long as he was powerful enough to be feared. You probably aren't going to talk smack about the tiefling heir of the Drovenges if said heir could crush your skull without breaking a sweat. At least, not to his face.
Or he hoped his son's heritage wouldn't be too obvious and he could pass him off as human. Sidonai doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Stealing this from the CotCT Obituaries thread...
Name: Duxotar Iltus Mhartis
Class/Level: Aristocrat 3 / Rogue 3
Adventure: Twice-Damned Prince
Catalyst: Death by implication
Story: Good question...
More seriously, as far as I can tell the only commentary in the AP regarding this guys death (which, given the political consequences, is kind of important), is that:
- He is assassinated, by means unspecified
- He dies around the same time as the heroes are emerging from Walcourt. He might die earlier, and the news is merely taking time to reach the PCs, but given that Walcourt isn't on a timer, there is no reason for that to be the case.
- It is implicated (somehow) that the Hellknights were involved.
- Paralictor Chard would really like to uncover evidence to clear the Hellknights of blame, or condemn those among his order who are responsible if they did it.
And that is all the info I've found. I don't mind filling in the blanks (I have players who like detective games), but I thought it worthwhile to pose the question to a broader audience, to see if there'd been any word regarding the intent of this scene.
Currently, my thoughts are that it should not actually be the Hellknights, as even though Ara is in league with the Council, she is siding with them as she believes them the best able to restore order in Westcrown, where the nobility are not. It could be argued that her first act in said alliance would be to assassinate the Duxotar of the dottari... but I find that to be a bit of a stretch. More likely, she assisted the Council by supplying evidence to plant to implicate the hellknights to distract the leaders of the Order long enough for her to implement her coup.
Which is then suggesting (naturally) it was the Council, and probably Skarx, whom had some involvement in other off-screen assassinations, and thus may have a chance at having some form of evidence to help clear the Hellknights proper... which might not matter a damn to most PCs, but I'm pretty sure it's something that Chard cares deeply about, thus, is a good way to get him more onside.
Following on: The Noble Lure.
This isn't really an error so much as an oddity.
By this point in the adventure path the aristocracy of Westcrown have barricaded themselves up in their viras and vaneos in fear of Council assassins, thus the first part of the Twice-Damned Prince is getting some on side to help convince the others to get out there and defend their city - which is their job.
The heroes are lead to the Mhartis & Cuicci families, because they are (as published) the only ones with estates on the mainland.
This leads to a rather odd scenario then... as we find that a bunch of nobles are, despite the fact that there are devils roaming the streets of Parego Regicona and at minimum a sense of the storm of anarchy about to break in the city... travelling over to the mainland to hang out at a tavern, unarmed and unarmored.
I'd recommend they at least be wearing leather armor and a rapier, if not breastplate, shield and longsword, with a min of 14 in Str and Con.
(But then, the misrepresentation of the aristocracy in feudal societies may be a bugbear of mine).
Also: Concluding the Adventure
In the player's guide, it states there are at least 2 waterfalls in the Adivian river, one merely 20 miles upstream of Westcrown.
In TDP, it states that Vourne sailed from Egorian to Westcrown, which is clearly impossible if there are waterfalls.
I'd suggest GM's pick one of the following:
- There are waterfalls, and Westcrown acts as the trade port for Egorian, with goods moved by road to the capital. Vourne then sailed from a different city (e.g. Remesiana).
- There are no waterfalls, and one can sail from Egorian to Westcrown, and Westcrown's role is more an intermediate port between the inland capital and the rest of the world.
