wolverines are more fun to fight than badgers, and badgers are probably too toughAs Chairbadger of the Badger's Ancient Brotherhood (BAB), I was disappointed to hear badgers would not be represented in the upcoming Pathfinder Bestiary. However, I am heartened to hear your compliment that badgers are simply too tough to be a part of the Pathfinder RPG. With this goodwill in mind, we will simply be content to wait for a future Epic level supplement, where badgers can be properly stated to challenge even the most ridiculously overpowered adventurer.
Hear! Hear!
The Balor looks absolutely devastatingly bad-ass. I hope the stats live up to it. ;)
The artwork in the bestiary looks GREAT so far. Can't wait to see what they've done all around.
Yeah, barbazu! That's it.Am I the only one that finds it odd that barbed devils aren't the ones called barbazu?
Nope, you aren't alone.
Probably uses the same root word as 'Barbasol', the shaving cream.
I think the French word for beard is 'barb', so there's gotta be some latin origin.
From the Latin, barba, beard. And the source of not only the English beard, but "barber".
Probably uses the same root word as 'Barbasol', the shaving cream.
I think the French word for beard is 'barb', so there's gotta be some latin origin.
Yep, it's 'barbe' pronounced more or less like barb'h and not that doll's name.
I think many of the 'original' devils came out of Dante's Divine Comedy's hell staff and I seem to remember one called 'Malbarbe' or something like it.
I guess you had to be way back then to be freaked by such things as a neddle beard or a fish with legs and other similar images of early painting of hell's residents.
I think many of the 'original' devils came out of Dante's Divine Comedy's hell staff and I seem to remember one called 'Malbarbe' or something like it.
Most of the devil names are actually just gibberish created during second editon's attempt to have demons and devils, but not use the words "demon" or "devil" (or angels, yada yada). Hence the creation of the names baatezu and tanar'ri (wow it's been a long time since I typed those names), and a host of other "scary" sounding but ultimately made up names. Out of the original MM, the devils were split, several having names (erinyes, lemures, pit fiends) and several just having descriptors (barbed, bone, ice), and then there was the special case of the horned devil that had both, noted for being modeled after Dante's malebranche.
Strangely, demons got their numbers and made up or mythological names.
While a few of the names devils eventually got - like barbazu - suggest some meaning, most, as far as I've been able to find, continue the traditions of demons and are mostly just made up. Hence, you end up with an appropriately three-pronged tradition of naming devils: by description, by myth, or by making stuff up. Expect this tradition to be upheld in Book of the Damned and the series of new devils in Council of Thieves, as I've got a bunch that come straight from myth (as there's a LOT of myth worked into BotD), there's a number named after their descriptions, and then there's also a few that are just cool and made up.
If anyone has the line on the suggested meanings of other devil names, I'd love to hear them.
I prefer the dual approach: One evil sounding name and a descriptive one - "Horned Devil (Cornugon)"
Wes,
If you don't have access to a "Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels" by Gustav Davidson, I highly suggest finding a copy. The book has served me well in my games (espeically my current d20 mordern game).
It is a great resource in general for GMs. The book even includes at least one "celestial" alphabet, maybe two.
I prefer the dual approach: One evil sounding name and a descriptive one - "Horned Devil (Cornugon)"
Agreed. It allows to have a "big word" name that sagely NPCs can toss around like they are lecturing students.
Hooray for medusae that aren't ugly any more.
Wasn't that the point of Medusa though? That her face was so horrifying it turned you to stone?
... of course, I've also been known to grumble because they're supposed to be called Gorgons, dammit!
Of course, I have to admit, I was also (perhaps weirdly) attracted to the 3E medusa, with the scales and frequent nudity, but... that's a whole other thing. n.n;
Wasn't that the point of Medusa though? That her face was so horrifying it turned you to stone?
No, medusae have snaky hair with gaze attacks that turn you to stone. Nothing to do with ugliness.
It's not always ugliness that kills you. Look at the nymph - or, rather, don't, unless you want to die (die happily I admit).
... of course, I've also been known to grumble because they're supposed to be called Gorgons, dammit!
Well, Medusa was the snake-haired gorgon, other gorgons didn't share that trait.
And you're decades too late to be pissed - as far as I know, the Medusa in D&D was always the one with the snake fetish, and the snake hair thing has been with us for a very long time, too.
Gorgons have always been the brass bull-like stoner critters in D&D as far as I can tell.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Wes,
If you don't have access to a "Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels" by Gustav Davidson, I highly suggest finding a copy. The book has served me well in my games (espeically my current d20 mordern game).It is a great resource in general for GMs. The book even includes at least one "celestial" alphabet, maybe two.
LOL. Owning that book is pretty much a pre-requisite for getting hired here. You don't need to worry. Wes has got it.
Wes,
If you don't have access to a "Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels" by Gustav Davidson, I highly suggest finding a copy. The book has served me well in my games (espeically my current d20 mordern game).It is a great resource in general for GMs. The book even includes at least one "celestial" alphabet, maybe two.
LOL. Owning that book is pretty much a pre-requisite for getting hired here. You don't need to worry. Wes has got it.
Dear Mr. Mona,
Rest assured that I have just purchased and read this book from cover to cover, wearing it out to the degree that I needed to buy a second copy, which I have also purchased. Please re-examine my application for employment and let me know. Thanks!
A wishful (if desperate) thinker
I prefer the dual approach: One evil sounding name and a descriptive one - "Horned Devil (Cornugon)"
There's a lot of that too. Expect apostate devils, warmonger devils, host devils, etc, in BoD, each having its own fancy name. I promise you there will be no "sword devils" or "funkface devils" or equally mundane or banal devils on my watch.
Also, on the made up naming front, just as barbazu is suggestive of the Latin for beard, osyluth suggests "os" Latin for "of bones." "Corne" means something akin to "little horn" in French, while "cornu" is horn in Latin. "Gelu" and "Gelidus" generally mean "cold" in Latin. I suspect there's more like that hidden out there for at least hamatulas, but I haven't turned anything up yet. I'd love to get a line on this from anyone whose taken more than a year of Latin - mine has worn pretty thin.
UPDATE: Chris Carey just turned up that "Hamat" means "hooked" in Latin, which pretty much does it for the core devils.
If you don't have access to a "Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels" by Gustav Davidson, I highly suggest finding a copy. The book has served me well in my games (especially my current d20 mordern game).
You mean the book sitting to my immediate left right now? Yup! This has been a constant reference over the last year.
You mean the book sitting to my immediate left right now? Yup! This has been a constant reference over the last year.
Heh.
Like I said, It has proven to be a great reference for me in games. I look forward to see what you pull from it.
The cover illustration of MY Dictionary of Angels (Including the Fallen Angels) is MUCH cooler.
Are you gonna share? :)
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"Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels"
I gotta ask:
Does this book have any mention on Lucifer AND Michael being named by some obscure source as "The Angel of Chaos"?
I can't remember which book it was at my local college, but I remember some dictionary on angeology laid out in alphabetical order having two "Angels of Chaos" listed. When I saw that the first was Lucifer, I was all like, "Expected." When I saw the second was Michael, I was like "BADASS!" I was just wondering if the Dictionary of Angels had any mention on the meaning of the title for Michael(Lucifer is pretty much easy to guess for).
I spend way too much time in that damn library.
And you're decades too late to be pissed - as far as I know, the Medusa in D&D was always the one with the snake fetish, and the snake hair thing has been with us for a very long time, too.Gorgons have always been the brass bull-like stoner critters in D&D as far as I can tell.
Don't mind me, I'm oddly particular and persnickety about certain things. I've never liked gorgons were metal bull critters in D&D, and never understood why they were, but decades ago, I didn't have the internet to complain to. ;)
Besides, back then, I was just a kid who'd read a bunch of Greek Mythology books and didn't know why they used a proper name as the name for a species when there was a perfectly servicable name for the group of creatures to which Medusa belonged. I seem to remember figuring that TSR must have had a cool idea for a petrifying bull monster, but they couldn't think of a good fantasy name that wasn't already taken.
It's just something that's kind of stuck with me over the years, is all. Kind of weirds me out, in the same way it does these days that kobolds are little dragon guys when I know folklorically, they were a kind of sprite. It's a foolish persnick, but it's mine.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Does this book have any mention on Lucifer AND Michael being named by some obscure source as "The Angel of Chaos"?I can't remember which book it was at my local college, but I remember some dictionary on angeology laid out in alphabetical order having two "Angels of Chaos" listed. When I saw that the first was Lucifer, I was all like, "Expected." When I saw the second was Michael, I was like "BADASS!" I was just wondering if the Dictionary of Angels had any mention on the meaning of the title for Michael(Lucifer is pretty much easy to guess for).
It was probably this one, as it mentions both Satan (not Lucifer specifically) and Michael under the entry for "Angel of Chaos." It's a pretty short entry, though, and there's not too much additional info.
Don't mind me, I'm oddly particular and persnickety about certain things. I've never liked gorgons were metal bull critters in D&D, and never understood why they were, but decades ago, I didn't have the internet to complain to. ;)
Besides, back then, I was just a kid who'd read a bunch of Greek Mythology books and didn't know why they used a proper name as the name for a species when there was a perfectly servicable name for the group of creatures to which Medusa belonged. I seem to remember figuring that TSR must have had a cool idea for a petrifying bull monster, but they couldn't think of a good fantasy name that wasn't already taken.
Gorgons are plated bulls thanks to Edward Topsell and his Historie of Foure-Footed Beastes. He ripped off the catoblepas of Pliny and called it a gorgon.
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It was probably this one, as it mentions both Satan (not Lucifer specifically) and Michael under the entry for "Angel of Chaos." It's a pretty short entry, though, and there's not too much additional info.
Damn and darn, I was hoping it would have an explanation or source for the name. Thanks though!
Thanks for that info, Demiurge. I'm still tempted to paint my gorgon mini brass so that it can be a brazen bull.
Don't mind me, I'm oddly particular and persnickety about certain things. I've never liked gorgons were metal bull critters in D&D, and never understood why they were, but decades ago, I didn't have the internet to complain to. ;)
Loved your oddly persnickety post :)
I had the same issue with gorgons when I first read 1e Monster Manual as a kid. I didn't have a clear idea of what a gorgon should be, but I imagined something more like an aberration. Since the gorgon's power was redundant anyway, I never used one.
I was OK with kobolds, because at the time I had never heard of a kobold.
The unicorn has wings? It's a unicorn or Pegasus with a horn?
Winged Unicorn = Alicorn. Or just a half-celestial unicorn.
What I can't figure out is what the metal-winged glowy balls are (ghaele in globe form?) or what the chick in white is.
Yeah, Wes, the lillend is sexy.
Is it a bow to the gnome-niche that she lost her rainbow hair?
EDIT: Just in case people haven't found this thread.
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Creative Director
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Yeah, Wes, the lillend is sexy.
Is it a bow to the gnome-niche that she lost her rainbow hair?EDIT: Just in case people haven't found this thread.
Lillends don't have much to do at all with gnomes. A more likely reason is that we didn't want our lillend to look EXACTLY like WotC lillends.
Sounds likely. Truth be told, I just wanted to say "gnome niche"...thread nostalgia.
Aren't those folks out of business?
If so, then some worthy company should hire that doubly gifted equine as their rep!
I figure that it's a half-celestial unicorn, due to the "divine" monsters. And I figure that we've got an Aasimar along with the lillend. Perhaps the other one is a Lantern Archon with a bit more awesome, but I dunno. It's a bit of a ? to me.
I figure that it's a half-celestial unicorn, due to the "divine" monsters. And I figure that we've got an Aasimar along with the lillend. Perhaps the other one is a Lantern Archon with a bit more awesome, but I dunno. It's a bit of a ? to me.
I figured the pictures were:
-lantern archons-lillend
-half-elf with a stick
-"celestial charger" (half-celestial unicorn)
I figured the pictures were:
-lantern archons
-lillend
-half-elf with a stick
-"celestial charger" (half-celestial unicorn)
Close.
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Yeah, Wes, the lillend is sexy.
Is it a bow to the gnome-niche that she lost her rainbow hair?EDIT: Just in case people haven't found this thread.
I wouldn't worry. Being as chaotic and artsy as they are, lillendi should vary pretty wildly in appearance. Possibly even on a day-to-day basis for the same lillend.
Worried? With these kind of previews? Not I.
I'm guessing the woman with the scrolls is a new form of angel with a knowledge theme--possibly a highly revamped astral deva.
I like the lantern archons as baroque golden figures, definitely.
It's just something that's kind of stuck with me over the years, is all. Kind of weirds me out, in the same way it does these days that kobolds are little dragon guys when I know folklorically, they were a kind of sprite. It's a foolish persnick, but it's mine.
Well, a lot of the stuff in D&D isn't quite up to the legends. Or to many legends, because a lot of the critters vary wildly in story.
Kobolds aren't alone: I think gnomes have a lot of different forms in one story or another. Tolkien called one of the most "exalted" elf races "gnomes". Which brings us to elves, which sometimes are little fairy things, or fairies that are beautiful from in front, but ugly from behind.
It's a mess.
But I think that at this time, D&D has its own momentum and that should be kept.
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Gorgons are plated bulls thanks to Edward Topsell and his Historie of Foure-Footed Beastes. He ripped off the catoblepas of Pliny and called it a gorgon.
This is one of the things I love about these boards! The sharing and the learning! I've always scratched my head over the bull-like gorgon in D&D. Thanks!
Gorgons are plated bulls thanks to Edward Topsell and his Historie of Foure-Footed Beastes. He ripped off the catoblepas of Pliny and called it a gorgon.
Oh-ho, it all makes sense to me now, (and helps me make my peace with the D&D Gorgon & Medusa besides!) Thanks!
You guys see that illustration of the medusa riding a gorgon? I think it was in the Rules Compendium. I got a big kick out of that reference.
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Creative Director
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Well, a lot of the stuff in D&D isn't quite up to the legends. Or to many legends, because a lot of the critters vary wildly in story.
Kobolds aren't alone: I think gnomes have a lot of different forms in one story or another. Tolkien called one of the most "exalted" elf races "gnomes". Which brings us to elves, which sometimes are little fairy things, or fairies that are beautiful from in front, but ugly from behind.
It's a mess.
But I think that at this time, D&D has its own momentum and that should be kept.
Actually, I disagree about it being a mess. At least from a Golarion viewpoint. Things like gorgons and kobolds and drow and so on might not exactly match the real-world inspiration for these creatures, but that's why we call the real-world versions "inspiration" and not "reference" or something like that. They're changed for countless reasons—art, aesthetics, the designer's urge to tinker, conflicting real-world legends, game tradition, typos, misinterpretations, improvements, etc. But setting aside the legends, if you look at it from a strictly in-world perspective, they're pretty codified and not really a mess at all.
Just as RPGs shouldn't try (for example) to model a hyperrealistic system of wounds and should instead change things to work like hit points, and just as the alignment system works better as a game element and not a real-world psychological tool, legends and other mythological inspirations for monsters don't need to adhere strictly to the source.
EDIT: This doesn't mean that folks should never look beyond the game to learn about the sources of things like gorgons and kobolds and gnomes. They should! That's why we often throw in sidebars talking about this very thing in our products.