The Avenger-A Core Class for PFRPG Converted From 4E


General Discussion (Prerelease)

Dark Archive

Okay, I have been doing some conversion work on the 4E class, the Avenger. This is the first draft of my work. It has not been playtested yet and is still a work in progress. Please feel free to make any constructive comments and critiques in order to make the class better.

Avenger
Alignment: The avenger’s alignment must be the same as the deity that he serves. An avenger must have a chosen deity.
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
The avenger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex)
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int Modifier

Table: The Avenger
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Oath of Enmity, Fast Movement +10 ft, Armor of Faith
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Radiant Vengeance 1/day
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Divine Strike +1d6
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Divine Guidance 1/day
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Bond of Foresight
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Radiant Vengeance 2/day
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Divine Strike +2d6
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Divine Guidance 2/day
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Oath of Enduring Wrath
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Radiant Vengeance 3/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Divine Strike +3d6
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Divine Guidance 3/day
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Channel Endurance
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Radiant Vengeance 4/day
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Divine Strike +4d6
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Divine Guidance 4/day
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Oath of Final Judgment
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Radiant Vengeance 5/day
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Divine Strike +5d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Divine Guidance 5/day

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the avenger.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: An avenger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are not proficient with any armor.

Oath of Enmity: The avenger designates one opponent as the target of his antagonism. All attacks made against that target gain a +2 power bonus.

Fast Movement: An avenger’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the avenger’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Armor of Faith: As long as the avenger is not wearing any armor they may add their Charisma bonus to their Armor Class, in addition to their Dexterity bonus

Radiant Vengeance: Once per day the avenger may add his Charisma bonus to the damage inflicted by a melee attack. At 6th level and every four levels after that, the avenger gains one more use of Radiant Vengeance each day.

Divine Strike: If an avenger can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack he is able to call on his god to provide him with insight into how best to dispatch his foe.
The avenger’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the avenger flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and it increases by 1d6 every four avenger levels thereafter. Should the avenger score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Unlike a rogue’s sneak attack, the avenger’s Divine Strike can affect undead, but it cannot affect constructs. Like a rogue’s sneak attack, the avenger must be able to see his target and must be able to reach the main body of the target.
Divine Guidance: Starting at 4th level, the avenger begins to gain greater insight from his god. This insight allows him to add his Charisma bonus to a roll to confirm a critical hit once per day. At 8th level and every four levels after that, the avenger is able to use this ability one more time per day.

Bond of Foresight: At 5th level, the avenger’s bond with his deity allows him to add his Charisma bonus to attack rolls made on attacks of opportunity.

Channel Endurance: By sacrificing all attacks for one round the avenger is able to gain DR 2/- for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus + ½ the avenger level.

Oath of Final Judgment: Beginning at 17th level, the avenger becomes so dedicated to his cause that he can continue to fight when lesser men would fall. When he falls below 0 hps, he remains conscious and can take either an attack or a move action each round. However, he still must make stabilization rolls and still dies if he falls below -10 hps.

I am also working on the Invoker, but that conversion is nowhere near ready to post yet.


David Fryer wrote:
Oath of Enmity: The avenger designates one opponent as the target of his antagonism. All attacks made against that target gain a...

Once a round? Or is it like favored enemy bonus against a the followers of a specific god?

Dark Archive

It's like a favored enemy bonus, but it applies to the opponent that the avenger designates. I envision it working similar to how I have heard Smite Evil will work in the final version of Pathfinder. The avenger can only use it against a designated target, and he can only designate one target per encounter.

Liberty's Edge

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Is the once per encounter thing your own machination for keeping the power down? Because, in 4e the Avenger could designate a new Enmity target after each one dies. Also, are you limiting the ability to use Enmity on targets with certain alignments(i.e. If you're Chaotic Good then you can only enmity non-good alignments) or does it work on a spur of the moment viewpoint(i.e. He is standing in my way, therefore he is standing in my gods way) or is it something else?

I love the Avenger class in 4e, even though I loathe that system beyond anything else in this world. The idea is just so cool. A holy assassin almost. I would consider giving them some minor spells(mainly defense based) that would be use/day and function as spell-likes abilities. Some good options would be Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, etc. Also, something that would be pretty cool would be to have the target of Oath of Enmity be constantly under the effect of Deathwatch spell. I just think it would be a neat flavor touch that the Avenger would always know how close he was to finishing his self-appointed mission.

Those are just some off the top of my head ideas.

Varathiel

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Yeah, I'm kinda with Varathiel. It needs a little something more. Right now it just feels a bit underpowered, but a few spell-like abilities would kick it up a notch, or maybe even a reduced spellcasting ability, something along the lines of the Paladin but with a mix of the Paladin and Assassin spell lists.

Edit: Looking at things a bit more, why not just convert over Oath of Enmity directly. Rather than a +2 to attack against the target, why not just use the 4e "roll all attacks against the target twice, using the better of the two". Abjure Undead sure sounds like it would convert as a Turn Undead/Channel Energy ability, perhaps with the constraint that an Avenger's channel ability cannot heal, only do damage to undead.

Dark Archive

houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I agree. Perhaps I should limit the use to times per day.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
David Fryer wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I agree. Perhaps I should limit the use to times per day.

1/minute is essentially the same as "per Encounter". It's a rare combat that goes more than 10 rounds, after all.

Liberty's Edge

Kvantum wrote:
David Fryer wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I agree. Perhaps I should limit the use to times per day.
1/minute is essentially the same as "per Encounter". It's a rare combat that goes more than 10 rounds, after all.

1/minute is also a spell duration, for the most part. Unless you're using Bo9S stuff, which was 4e proving ground stuff anyway...

Dark Archive

Okay, to try and kill two birds with one stone, here goes. As far as Oath Of Enmity goes, The way I see it is that the average person with levels of avenger is going to have a either with me or against me type of attitude. I see them not having much of a problem with using Oath of Enmity on anyone who is actively opposing them. As for limiting how often it can be used, I was using the example of a paladin or barbarian when I designed the mechanic. Being able to reswear an Oath of Enmity every few rounds seemed a little over powered for 3.X to me.

As far as spellcasting goes, I was trying not to step on cleric's toes, but yeah, I can see it needs something. I am looking hard right now at allowing them to select one domain that is associated with their patron deity to give the avenger a little more power. I just don't like the image of the avenger being a spellcaster. Then they just become a divine duskblade in a lot of ways. After all, the assassin's spell list went away for PFRPG.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
David Fryer wrote:

Okay, to try and kill two birds with one stone, here goes. As far as Oath Of Enmity goes, The way I see it is that the average person with levels of avenger is going to have a either with me or against me type of attitude. I see them not having much of a problem with using Oath of Enmity on anyone who is actively opposing them. As for limiting how often it can be used, I was using the example of a paladin or barbarian when I designed the mechanic. Being able to reswear an Oath of Enmity every few rounds seemed a little over powered for 3.X to me.

As far as spellcasting goes, I was trying not to step on cleric's toes, but yeah, I can see it needs something. I am looking hard right now at allowing them to select one domain that is associated with their patron deity to give the avenger a little more power. I just don't like the image of the avenger being a spellcaster. Then they just become a divine duskblade in a lot of ways. After all, the assassin's spell list went away for PFRPG.

I don't think that a +2 bonus to hit one guys is all that game-breaking, especially if that is all that enmity does. In 4e it did more than just provide a bonus to hit. Being able to select a new target when the current target dies or is disable, doesn't seem too powerful. If it's going to be a use/day class ability then it should also have more perks than a +2 to hit/damage, say allowing you to use the sneak attack on the target even when he is not flanked or has his dex to AC applied.

I don't think it should be a spellcaster but just have spell-like abilities that are representative of his god protecting him. Does that make sense?

Varathiel


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also, consider making Divine Guidance a permanent thing. The Warblade(Tome of Battle) gets the ability to add INT to confirmation rolls at level 3.

Also what is Oath of Enduring Wrath? I don't think it was in the ability descriptions.

Varathiel

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
David Fryer wrote:
After all, the assassin's spell list went away for PFRPG.

Yes, and the Red Mantis Assassins get an expanded spell list over the 3.5 Assassin PrC. If it's appropriate for the class concept, why not?

Dark Archive

varathiel wrote:

Also, consider making Divine Guidance a permanent thing. The Warblade(Tome of Battle) gets the ability to add INT to confirmation rolls at level 3.

Also what is Oath of Enduring Wrath? I don't think it was in the ability descriptions.

Varathiel

You're right, I did leave that off. It gives a +2 to all saving throws when Oath of Enmity is active.


I agree it looks a little weak on the power side. Theres a few things I'd look at

Oath of Emnity: This'll need an action tag. It doesn't say if it's a swift, move or standard action. I'd say it's worth a swift action (at least when compared to other 1st level abilities, such as favoured enemy which is constantly active or a paladin's smite which is more powerful).

Armour of Faith: I'd provide a level-based cap or make it a hgiher level ability. As it stands it's too good for a 1-level dip just to get charisma to AC. Somthing like "This bonus cannot exceed the character's Avenger Level/2" that way the character has to continue taking Avenger levels to gain it's benifits and it scales a little as well as a bonus.

Radient Vengence and Bond of Foresight: Not exactly the most overpowering of abilities, why not up it to once per minute maybe? Though in terms of fluff I think the Avenger should only gain these bonuses against foes subject to Oath of Emnity or deity specific foes).

Channel Endurence: I think you're hit a real winner here. Pretty useful but not overly so. I think the only thing you should really do with this is make it scale a little (then again, I have a thing for scaling abilities).

Oath of Final Judgment: A ltitle weak for such a high level ability. I might change it to somthing like this "Once per day, whenever the avenger would be reduced to less than 0 hit points (even if it would reach -10) the avenger can use this ability as an immediate action to instead be reduced to exactly 0 hit points".

Overall it looks pretty good. I might consider granting it spells too, since both the ranger and the paladin gain them and thematiclly this class strikes me as a ranger/paladin hybrid.

Dark Archive

Nero24200 wrote:

Armour of Faith: I'd provide a level-based cap or make it a higher level ability. As it stands it's too good for a 1-level dip just to get charisma to AC. Something like "This bonus cannot exceed the character's Avenger Level/2" that way the character has to continue taking Avenger levels to gain it's benefits and it scales a little as well as a bonus.

I see what you are saying here, but I think that there is not as much room for abuse as it might appear. Unless you have a very high charisma, it is not going to benefit you as much as armor would. Therefore, the only classes that would really gain an advantage from a level dip would be arcane spellcasters and monks, and monks get their own funky bonuses to AC.

Liberty's Edge

houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I thought there were encounter restrictions in 3x. Barbarian rage was once an encounter I thought as was dervish dancing and I'm sure other things I can't summon to mind right now.

Even the Ghostwalker's Painful Reckoning only took effect the NEXT encounter they fight the bad guy(s) that beat the crap out of him (we have a Ghostwalker in our campaign).

Now, however I WILL agree that the Encounter term in general can be confusing at times and is often up for the DM's judgement. After all if a baddy runs away and you chase them for an hour, is it still the same encounter? In that regard I can see why anyone would want to change it to something definitive instead of abstract like the term "encounter".

My Pathfinder rule of thumb is Simpler is Better, and having a direct way to keep track of how long things last/don't is something I get behind.

Also I agree that a spell list might be good but if not that, then maybe they are granted spell-LIKE abilities as they level.

OR, if you would, perhaps they could be granted a single Domain of their deities at level 1 and they get the abilities per normal as they level as if they were a cleric of an equivalent level (but have it based off CHA for DC's and such instead of WIS)

Liberty's Edge

Misery wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I thought there were encounter restrictions in 3x. Barbarian rage was once an encounter I thought as was dervish dancing and I'm sure other things I can't summon to mind right now.

Barbarian rage is x rounds. Some of the later splat books may have introduced "per encounter" stuff, as they were trying out some concepts that wound up in 4e. I know quite a bit of the Bo9S was a testing ground for 4e concepts, for instance.

Liberty's Edge

houstonderek wrote:
Misery wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I thought there were encounter restrictions in 3x. Barbarian rage was once an encounter I thought as was dervish dancing and I'm sure other things I can't summon to mind right now.
Barbarian rage is x rounds. Some of the later splat books may have introduced "per encounter" stuff, as they were trying out some concepts that wound up in 4e. I know quite a bit of the Bo9S was a testing ground for 4e concepts, for instance.

I meant more that you could only use your rage once per encounter.

Dark Archive

Avenger 2.0

Avenger
Alignment: The avenger’s alignment must be the same as the deity that he serves. An avenger must have a chosen deity.
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
The avenger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex)
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int Modifier

Table: The Avenger
Level Base
Attack
Bonus Fort
Save Ref
Save Will
Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Oath of Enmity, Fast Movement +10 ft, Armor of Faith, Domain
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Radiant Vengeance
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Divine Strike +1d6
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Divine Guidance
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Bond of Foresight
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Spells
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Divine Strike +2d6
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Oath of Enduring Wrath
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Divine Strike +3d6
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Channel Endurance
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Divine Strike +4d6
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Oath of Final Judgment
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Divine Strike +5d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the avenger.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: An avenger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are not proficient with any armor.
Oath of Enmity (Su): The avenger designates one opponent as the target of his antagonism as a swift action. All attacks made against that target gain a +2 power bonus. If the target of the Oath of Enmity is killed or disabled, the avenger may shift this oath to another target.
Fast Movement (Ex): An avenger’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the avenger’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.
Armor of Faith (Su): As long as the avenger is not wearing any armor they receive a bonus equal to their Charisma bonus + ¼ their avenger level to their Armor Class, in addition to their Dexterity bonus.
Domains (Su): At first level the avenger may pick one domain from those of his deity. The avenger is able to use all powers from that domain as if he were a cleric of equal level. However, the avenger is not able to cast spells from this domain.
Radiant Vengeance (Sp): Starting at 2nd level the avenger may add his Charisma bonus to attack and damage rolls made with melee weapons. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus.
Divine Strike (Sp): If an avenger can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack he is able to call on his god to provide him with insight into how best to dispatch his foe.
The avenger’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the avenger flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and it increases by 1d6 every four avenger levels thereafter. Should the avenger score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Unlike a rogue’s sneak attack, the avenger’s Divine Strike can affect undead, but it cannot affect constructs. Like a rogue’s sneak attack, the avenger must be able to see his target and must be able to reach the main body of the target.
Divine Guidance (Su): Starting at 4th level, the avenger begins to gain greater insight from his god. This insight allows him to add his Charisma bonus + ½ his avenger level to any roll to confirm a critical hit.
Bond of Foresight (Su): At 5th level, the avenger’s bond with his deity allows him to add his Charisma bonus to attack rolls made on attacks of opportunity.
Spells (Su): At 6th level, the avenger learns how to channel divine energy to cast divine spells. He casts all spells as if he were a cleric of five levels lower than the avenger’s actual level.
Oath of Enduring Wrath (SU): By spending a move action the avenger gains a morale bonus to saving throws equal to +2 + his Charisma bonus for one minute. This ability can be used Charisma bonus number of times per day.
Channel Endurance (Su): By sacrificing all attacks for one round the avenger is able to gain DR 2/- for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus + ½ the avenger level.
Oath of Final Judgment (Su): Beginning at 17th level, the avenger becomes so dedicated to his cause that he can continue to fight when lesser men would fall. When he falls below 0 hps, he can spend a full round action to restore himself to 1 hp. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus.


Nero24200 wrote:


Armour of Faith: I'd provide a level-based cap or make it a hgiher level ability. As it stands it's too good for a 1-level dip just to get charisma to AC. Somthing like "This bonus cannot exceed the character's Avenger Level/2" that way the character has to continue taking Avenger levels to gain it's benifits and it scales a little as well as a bonus.

I seriously don't see how this is too potent of an ability, even for first level. A Monk gets this but with a better stat(at least Wis can go to Will Saves) and a scaling bonus on top of it.

David Fryer wrote:


Armor of Faith (Su): As long as the avenger is not wearing any armor they receive a bonus equal to their Charisma bonus + ¼ their avenger level to their Armor Class, in addition to their Dexterity bonus.

Very similar to the Monk's ability now, I like it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Misery wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Misery wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

I thought there were encounter restrictions in 3x. Barbarian rage was once an encounter I thought as was dervish dancing and I'm sure other things I can't summon to mind right now.
Barbarian rage is x rounds. Some of the later splat books may have introduced "per encounter" stuff, as they were trying out some concepts that wound up in 4e. I know quite a bit of the Bo9S was a testing ground for 4e concepts, for instance.
I meant more that you could only use your rage once per encounter.

When a Barbarian's rage ends they are Fatigued. This condition goes away at the end of the encounter. However, if your Barbarian is immune to fatigue, or has the condition removed, then they can rage agian. It's uncommon that you need to do it, but it is possible.


I've played very little 4E. My group hated it and some even dropped out until we returned to playing 3.5. What exactly is an Avenger? What purpose does it serve?

Scarab Sages

houstonderek wrote:

I don't know about having abilities that work "per encounter" in a 3x conversion. It isn't a 3x concept, after all. 3x deals in "rounds", "minutes", "times per day", stuff like that...

Other than that, it looks pretty freaking awesome :)

The new ranger ability for Quarry works until the target is dead...and you cna't pick another quarry for an hour...so the mechanic should work similar to that...

Shadow Lodge

In 4th ed, there are the 4 class types, (controler, leader, striker, and tank (?). There are also power sorces, arcane, divine, primal, martial, psionic, etc. . .

The avenger is a divine stiker, which means its power source comes from the divine, (deities, religion, the heavens, or whatever) and it is good at and focused on dealing a lot of damage to a single target. Those two things aside, it his nothing to do with rogues or rangers, both also strikers. It's powers revolve around forcing people to come to you, and being able to teleport follow their mark if they try to run, as well as a few holy blasts and strikes.

I started a thread a few months ago about a 3e avenger but found that no one had even similar ideas of what the class should be.

In 4e they have all good saves, fair HP, simple and martial melee, simple ranged weapons, only cloth proficiency and dex, WIS, and int are their main stats. Str and Con are secondary, while cha is not important.

So I would suggest wis to ac in all but heavy armor/load, and spells similar to a bards progression. Spells are wis based, while all other class features are either wis or int. Spells need to focus on individual targets for damage such as inflict light wounds, with a few cleric buffs like divine favor, some spells that allow for rerolls or help hit, like true strike, and a few to help hide like invisibilty and obsc. mist. They should not get area effect damaging spells like fireball, healing, or superbuffs like righteous might. They do need some teleporting like dim. door and knights move (spell comp.).

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