The two players are just good friends, they played together pretty frequently. I wasn't there for the whole campaign; it had a core of four players who went the whole way, with a number of people coming and going as things went on. I sort of drifted in for a while and then out, then back in in time for the finale. I was lucky enough to be there when it all went down though.Apparently, the wizard's player just checked with the paladin's player to make sure he was okay with some moral quandries coming his way from her character, but assured him that it wasn't anything set up to try and make him fall. The GM ran with it and allowed the wizard to do a number of things in secret via notes and stepping into another room when necessary. The other players knew something was going on but they were never certain what. They certainly weren't expecting her character to break down like she did. The pally's player said he couldn't shake the feeling out of game that the wizard was going to turn on them eventually, or that she was using the party for her own ends. He was genuinely taken by surprise, which made his reaction and what he did next that much more awesome.
After that there was a lot more open talk between the two and the rest of the party about where they wanted to go with their characters. The party was a lot tighter after that.
I'd have loved to be part of it. It reminds me of some great stories that remind me why I love paladins, and love great players who put in that extra effort. Here're some of my favorites:
A paladin several years ago lost everything but her sword, and raising it high over her head, lead the way into the overlord's keep. In 3.5, this is a big thing, and given the poor mechanics of the original 3.5 paladin, it's even bigger, but she challenged them to not back down...and did it with style. If she was willing to go forward, how couldn't they be, they with all their equipment, rest, and health, and still hold their heads up at the end of the day?
It wasn't followed by a blind charge--she listened, acted with wisdom, but she stuck to her guns.
Another, a paladin committed grave acts under a sort of geas, and waking up from that he found his god had deserted him--the memories came back like clouds. He made his way under this cloud of guilt to a friend's house, and refusing to enter, asked her to come with him while he spoke with the priests. He felt unable to enter the house--the children inside represented innocence, and he was not, at the time. He then went with her and her husband to the Atonement. The man had held him down until the geas had ended, and prevented the damage from being worse--so they became witnesses at the trial, and he asked the priest to bless their family while he interceded with the god, because of what they'd done.
Another, a paladin refused payment a village had offered for ridding them of a necromancer, and during the speech by the mayor, not only handed back her share of the money she received, but asked what else she could do. She destroyed the necromancer's tools as well, and then had the area re-consecrated to another deity. Of course, this same paladin threw a fit when a vampire got away, and poured vials of holy water over the escape hatch... a final and frustrated “take that!” as she danced madly atop the stones, throwing paladinic dignity aside.
One other paladin argued for a reduced sentence for a group of young gangsters, and arranged to have them serve the second half of it as part of community service...under a number of the churches, whichever one appeared to have the best chance of converting that particular gang member. Sometimes, it came back and bit him in the butt, but he also gained a number of lifelong friendships from it, and eventually, a lot of help tracking down other members. The boy who aided him looked him in the eye and said, I know you're a good man, and you'll stick by your word, so if I help you, you have to promise me you'll do your best to bring them back alive, so they get the same chance I did. We didn't have a lot of choice, some of us, ending up where we did.
So he did, though it made the final battle harder.
What's your story? Your favorite? What made you keep playing a paladin, inspired you to play one in the first place? I saw some great stories hinted at in other threads, and I'd love to read about them.
Yeah, I believe the best way to counter the "lawful stupid" conception is with information, and different experiences. I can hope it inspires someone. But I want to hear the stories. Hell, that's why I play.
Oh, yeah. And the potato chips.
Anyhow, since this is dedicated to stories, please don't use this to rehash old arguments. As nice as shooting the breeze is, it's stuff that's been said. There are other threads for that. :)
Is that title supposed to be "Paladins Aren't Lawful Stupid"?
It's ironic. ;) I'd hoped to make that clear from the tales, but I suppose I should go out and say it. :)
Is that title supposed to be "Paladins Aren't Lawful Stupid"?
I'm going to bet the OP chose to be more provocative to generate visits to the thread, knowing he could counter the title with the content.
What's your story? Your favorite? What made you keep playing a paladin, inspired you to play one in the first place? I saw some great stories hinted at in other threads, and I'd love to read about them.
My first and only paladin(and my first DnD character): the human Stile. Wearing scalemail, he wielded a shortsword, a warhammer, and a glaive. After reading a borrowed book, I liked the way paladins sounded and wanted to try playing the "Knight in Shining Armor" Pc. He made it to second or third level before I started to make fighters and clerics. He's one of my favorite characters because he is the only one who I considered having an AL shift because of an animal. As it was my first time ever playing Dungeons and Dragons, the DM(Charles Scholz I think) must have decided to mess with me. I heard something rustling in the undergrowth and went to investigate. I was promptly attacked by a squirrel.
What's your story? Your favorite? What made you keep playing a paladin, inspired you to play one in the first place? I saw some great stories hinted at in other threads, and I'd love to read about them.My first and only paladin(and my first DnD character): the human Stile. Wearing scalemail, he wielded a shortsword, a warhammer, and a glaive. After reading a borrowed book, I liked the way paladins sounded and wanted to try playing the "Knight in Shining Armor" Pc. He made it to second or third level before I started to make fighters and clerics. He's one of my favorite characters because he is the only one who I considered having an AL shift because of an animal. As it was my first time ever playing Dungeons and Dragons, the DM(Charles Scholz I think) must have decided to mess with me. I heard something rustling in the undergrowth and went to investigate. I was promptly attacked by a squirrel.
Hah! And congrats on the paladin. Did you ever go back?
Now I wonder if Callous has a tale. And heh, no worries. I roll 1s, too.
And yeah. How am I doing on content so far? :)
I have found paladins played well and poorly also. The paladin-cavaliers of 1e were tough to play but it was the cavalier part which forced the stupid part. The requirement to charge the most powerful obvious foe or to only retreat when you were out numbered 3 to 1. It has been 20 years since I played a paladin-cavalier so my memory may be faulty. I have also seen paladins played as lawful killers. If the monster is on the list of evil things then no mercy and slaughter all of the monster babies also.
A paladin does not have to be played stupid nor tactically incompetent. A good role model for a paladin is Balian in Kingdom of Heaven. He did not want to defend the city but he didn't give up any advantage he could get in fighting the seiging army.
Doug
I had a friend who was "the Paladin guy". Pretty much every time he made a character, it was a Pally. The funny thing was, this particular player DM'd a lot, and he was accustomed to having to be craftier than some of his players (who were b****ards). So his Paladin's weren't Gray Guardian-esque, but they were really difficult to pull shenanigans on. Kinda like every cop is a criminal, he was always second guessing the lies people told and so on.
My favorite is when one of his Paladins encountered a regent who was secretly up to no good. He strolled up and smite/shield bashed the crap out of the man who basically ruled an entire kingdom, right in the middle of the throne room. He had already cast zone of truth before entering, so when guards rush up and the heir apparent dips into the room to see what's going on; he asks the regent if control of the nation would pass to the rightful heir at the festival later that week (it was supposed to) and managed to badger him so well that the guy talked himself into a corner. Eventually, the regent more or less confessed to plotting to murder the heir and take over. No other attack rolls necessary, guards took him away. It was beautiful.
*rolls a 1 on Sense Motive*Is that title supposed to be "Paladins Aren't Lawful Stupid"?I'm going to bet the OP chose to be more provocative to generate visits to the thread, knowing he could counter the title with the content.
?
He said so himself on the post right above mine (that posted while I was replying, else I wouldn't have bothered to guess after the OP himself had responded).
So it looks like I rolled a 20.
I had a friend who was "the Paladin guy". Pretty much every time he made a character, it was a Pally. The funny thing was, this particular player DM'd a lot, and he was accustomed to having to be craftier than some of his players (who were b****ards). So his Paladin's weren't Gray Guardian-esque, but they were really difficult to pull shenanigans on. Kinda like every cop is a criminal, he was always second guessing the lies people told and so on.
My favorite is when one of his Paladins encountered a regent who was secretly up to no good. He strolled up and smite/shield bashed the crap out of the man who basically ruled an entire kingdom, right in the middle of the throne room. He had already cast zone of truth before entering, so when guards rush up and the heir apparent dips into the room to see what's going on; he asks the regent if control of the nation would pass to the rightful heir at the festival later that week (it was supposed to) and managed to badger him so well that the guy talked himself into a corner. Eventually, the regent more or less confessed to plotting to murder the heir and take over. No other attack rolls necessary, guards took him away. It was beautiful.
That really is. I'd have loved to have'em on my team. Thanks for sharing the story, Kuma.
I wish I had a good paladin story. It's been sooooo long since anyone played a paladin in any game I've DMed or played in. I can't remember any good stories.
So here's one about a fake paladin.
I once joined a new group of players. The DM told me their campaign was winding down, only a month or two left, then they'd start something new.
So I brought in a CN thief/cleric/fighter (this was 2nd edition) who walked around in full plate, smote the bad guys with swords (a big no-no for 2e clerics), preached the goodness of his deity (a god of trickery actually, but I never named him by name), and stole the bejeepers out of everything that wasn't nailed down.
Nobody thought I was a cleric because I used a bastard sword. Nobody thought I was just fighter because I could heal and cast minor spells. Evryone believed I was a paladin.
I can't tell you how many times the party's kender (yes, we had a kender) had his pockets searched for something I had in my pockets - and nobody ever asked me once if I had stolen the stuff because they had me pegged as a paladin. I was rich, rich, RICH!
I've got a player who always describes his character as 'Chaotic Stupid'. Doesn't matter what his alignment is, or even what game system it is. Champions supers game? Chaotic Stupid. Troll Street Sammy in Shadowrun, Chaotic Stupid. Albino Jawa Sith Apprentice in Star Wars, Chaotic Stupid.
We suspect it may be a descriptive more applicable to the player than his characters, but it's hard to tell. ;)
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I had a paladin for a short game after my cleric bit the dust. The DM had concocted a Alien/Relic/nasty monster that was chasing the party through the keep. In the final battle, his armor and sword had been shattered, he was fighting with only mace and shield. And after the battles from before, his healing was expended, his smites were used, and he literally had one hit point left. When the beast came around the corner, what did he do?
Dropped his shield, took mace in both hands, and charged.
Another time, my scout had taken a level of paladin after traveling with the party paladin for four or five levels. When the DM stepped aside to let another player try some new things, we got hit with dreams tempting us to the dark side. The other player gave in, but mine resisted, and punched the temptress in the face.
Then we woke up to an ambush by spider-riding goblins, and a secretly turned blackguard traitor. It was all my character could do to try and take out the enemies, just to end up face to face with the blackguard over the body of one of the other players. He died, and the old DM came back and pressed the reset button, but it's a story I'll remember for quite awhile.
I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.
I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.
Lulz.
The only time I ever played a Paladin, it was a Gray Guardian who spedialized in using some fighting defensively feats to deal extra damage.
It was in the new Castle Ravenloft module that was published not too long ago, and he was battered severely every game session. Not my best build. It was fun to role-play as a Judge Dredd clone though.
I ran a Paladin based on Buffy, since it was originally run under 2nd ed she was declared dead every time she reached 0hp and at 1st level she had to help fight a hag as the rest of the party was at least 6th or higher (highest I believe was a Halfling Fighter/Thief of around 11th+ level) she was of course killed and then raised thanks to the xp she earned up to that point she was 5th level yes not the right way to play but by the time they switched to 3.0 she had lost 5pts of Constitution since she was usually in the thick of things and first to fall but not the one with the record of most killed admittedly.
Finally died due to dragon breath although the dm had to ignore the fact my other character a cleric of helm caught the dragon by surprise with a wall of water and even though the entire party were moved about 10-15' below where they were standing he still ruled it could adjust its aim for those not directly behind the wall of water even though the 40pts of damage it took for the plunge and the fact it still managed to close its wings after the dm conveniently denied the surprise part it still managed to fly off.
I ran Bridget Anne d'Summerville as a good aligned paladin and lawful but the same dm then ran a paladin of his own who gave the best description of a lawful not obliged to be good aligned paladin okay fanatic but thats a story for another day...
I ran a game for the best paladin I have ever seen run, he actually turned his code into an advantage and lawful stupid is not something he even bothered with, now I run a 4e paladin of unaligned nature and am surprised to see he's still alive, given I'm still getting a grip on the rules!
I only really ever had one paladin, and I played him more in NWN than I did pen'n'paper.
I played him as a sort of charming gentlment, based loosly on Allan Schezar from Escaflowne. One thing I always loved about him (particularly on NWN) was that, despite being being chaste, people still thought he was a womanizing bastard simply because he was that charming. Pity the DM's (and a fair number of the players) on that server don't have half a brain when it comes to paladins nor any desire to actually have one exist in their game.
Hah! And congrats on the paladin. Did you ever go back?
If by that you mean did i go back and get a new(squirrel) hat? No I did not. I actually haven't played that character in a while, since we stopped playing Living Arcanis at my local game shop.
well..
a paladin is whatever his player plays it :Pif its lawful stupid you then knows whose fault is
QFT
A while back (2nd Ed AD&D), I was playing a paladin in a game where the main theme was supposed to be defeating the "bandit" army secretly controlled by the most powerful noble in the land (who was using it to take over the kingdom). After an adventure or two, defeating some low-mid level fiends peripheral to the main plot and rescuing a holy relic (thought to be a minor holy item), the party stopped through a village on their way to warn the king that some of the kingdom's nobles were involved with the "bandits." That's when the villagers told the party that they couldn't afford to resupply the party since a tribute collection force from the "bandits" was due that day.
My paladin gave his tithe and remaining wealth to the party cleric to donate to the paladin's church and told the rest of the party to continue on to warn the king. He then rode down the road the other way to confront the tribute collectors alone. He took down a squad or two of the "bandits" by himself and the relic (which was still in his possession) took out the tribute collection force's leadership and several hundred troops when his equipment was examined. He didn't save the village from having to pay tribute, but he did weaken and delay the "bandits" while the rest of the party got the warning to the king. "Lawful Stupid?" Maybe, but then Leonidas, Roland, and the troops at The Alamo could be considered in the same light. Did the paladin's death serve the greater good, instead of just his self interest? Definitely, which is why I made the decision, even knowing that it was a deliberate "moral dilemma."
The rest of the players were actually impressed (as was the DM, who had set up the "moral dilemma" in the first place). Eventually, after playing an elf ranger for a while (who ended up with a title/position with the elven court and had to quit active adventuring outside of the elven forests), the paladin was reincarnated as a minotaur (using the optional rules in The Complete Book of Humanoids).
I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.well..
a paladin is whatever his player plays it :Pif its lawful stupid you then knows whose fault is
Everyone who has ever played a paladin?
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All this talk has almost convinced me to have my fighter in my local Legacy of Fire game go paladin. He worships Sarenrae already, but he's NG. Need to find some justification and motivation for an alignment shift. I don't want to give up my khopesh though...
Everyone who has ever played a paladin?I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.well..
a paladin is whatever his player plays it :Pif its lawful stupid you then knows whose fault is
Overlooked most of the thread, huh?
Here's the story referenced in the OP's quote:
But she still lacked the faith that those ideals could survive on their own in such a world. She started going about in secret to watch his back and clean up loose ends that she believed would wind up getting him killed. She dirtied her hands handling matters she believed the paladin couldn't, or more importantly, shouldn't. She became more and more devoted to the task of protecting him both as a person and as a symbol that couldn't afford to be sullied by what she considered necessary evils.
When the party left enemies alive, she murdered any who she believed might come looking for revenge on the paladin. If she found out about a problem that could even slightly put the paladin at risk of breaking his code, she would either cut through the problem with brutal efficiency or guide the party away from ever seeing it, consequences for anyone else be damned.
She covered her tracks well, and kept it up for a long time. But while she started off believing whole-heartedly that she was doing what was right, the guilt just started to pile up. While the paladin was sleeping the sleep of the just, she was getting anything but. Eventually the rest of the party started to notice her cracking up, and it all came out in the open when she tearfully confessed(in a church of the god she had come to believe in but whose tenets she could not find the faith to truly follow) everything she had done and why to the paladin she had turned into a sort of idol. He was horrified by what had been done for his sake and in his name, and saddened by who had done it. The wizard is full-on weeping at this point, not even daring to ask for the forgiveness she believes she doesn't deserve. The paladin(AND THE PLAYER) is shedding Manly Tears as he hugs her, forgives her without any hesitation, and then gently places her under arrest. THE DAMN GM IS TEARING UP AT THIS POINT.
The party is shocked when they learn the details in-character, and a good chunk of the campaign after that was dedicated towards the wizard's trial(with the paladin and most of the party serving on her defense) and her long and arduous parole(under the paladin's watchful eye) and struggle towards redemption. She eventually made it to NG.
The paladin and wizard were married by the end of the campaign, but that was an even longer and bumpier road.
So yeah, paladins can be drama magnets. But it can be in a goo-AWESOME way if done right.
Everyone who has ever played a paladin?I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.well..
a paladin is whatever his player plays it :Pif its lawful stupid you then knows whose fault is
Who play them like that I have played many, never lawful stupid...must just be your players
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I've played a number of Paladins over the years. My two favorites are Sir Fenemir Greymont a Knight of the Watch from the Grand Duchy of Geoff and Gavin Brand Purple Dragon Knight from Cormyr who pursued a killer through a portal to Sigil.
Fenemir was the classic knight in armor, the campaign and all the characters were thematically based the knights in David Edding's Elenium series. So these guys were Lawful Good but ruthless, cunning, and a blast to play.
Gavin was designed to be a fish out of water who despite all thrives. We were using the Skills and Powers rules which allowed me to build a paladin with some wilderness qualities built in. So here is this naive outdoorsy tracker paladin trapped in the planar city of Sigil. Gavin had an innocence about him that bordered on Lawful Stupid but his instincts were usually right. He was one of my favorite characters to play but alot of the pleasure came from the interplay with the other player characters.
Judge Dredd is not a paladin, to play a paladin like Judge Dredd is forgoing the "Good" aspect of the alignment. Judge Dredd is about Law, not good...
The joy of the GG prestige class was that it absolved you of many of the moral strictures placed on a paladin. It made traditional paladin players squeal.
I meant to imply that I rolled the 1.?
He said so himself on the post right above mine (that posted while I was replying, else I wouldn't have bothered to guess after the OP himself had responded).
So it looks like I rolled a 20.
Oh, well, uh, my bad then ;)
Judge Dredd is not a paladin, to play a paladin like Judge Dredd is forgoing the "Good" aspect of the alignment. Judge Dredd is about Law, not good...The joy of the GG prestige class was that it absolved you of many of the moral strictures placed on a paladin. It made traditional paladin players squeal.
Precisely because it removes those strictures. Without them you aren't a paladin. They define what makes you so much better than everyone else. The fact you can hold onto ideals and customs so many think of as "weak" and "ineffectual" and still come out on top shining through. If you don't have them you aren't really a paladin. Just another thug with special powers.
Precisely because it removes those strictures. Without them you aren't a paladin. They define what makes you so much better than everyone else. The fact you can hold onto ideals and customs so many think of as "weak" and "ineffectual" and still come out on top shining through. If you don't have them you aren't really a paladin. Just another thug with special powers.Judge Dredd is not a paladin, to play a paladin like Judge Dredd is forgoing the "Good" aspect of the alignment. Judge Dredd is about Law, not good...The joy of the GG prestige class was that it absolved you of many of the moral strictures placed on a paladin. It made traditional paladin players squeal.
Maybe a good subject for a thread might be "what is a paladin, really?" I've run into enough "but EVERYONE knows what a paladin is," but then I find out in the details that:
1. Everyone's perception is just slightly different, but these "slight" differences differ in a big way
2. There's a proliferation of bad stereotypes
3. The proliferation is worsened by folks who deliberately make the paladin-irritant PC just to "mess with the player making the paladin" because of assumptions about #2
4. Forgetting that Lawful Good also includes Good.
So I think a thread of that nature would be a good idea. Perhaps also a footnote in future books that says: a paladin may be a "universal" concept, but its specific interpretation should come from its setting. In other words, sit down with the DM and hash it out before hand. Figure out where it sits in their world.
Paladins are great. They're one of the few classes, though, where roleplaying seems "required," I think and I believe that's a measure too of why people like them. Now add the 4 misconceptions listed above to the top of it, and perhaps that's where some of the mess comes from. The paladin debate is as old as the magician versus fighter one, perhaps older.
Precisely because it removes those strictures. Without them you aren't a paladin. They define what makes you so much better than everyone else. The fact you can hold onto ideals and customs so many think of as "weak" and "ineffectual" and still come out on top shining through. If you don't have them you aren't really a paladin. Just another thug with special powers.Judge Dredd is not a paladin, to play a paladin like Judge Dredd is forgoing the "Good" aspect of the alignment. Judge Dredd is about Law, not good...The joy of the GG prestige class was that it absolved you of many of the moral strictures placed on a paladin. It made traditional paladin players squeal.
The class didn't give complete carte blanche, so it's not as if you can do whatever you want and retain those special powers. Regardless, it existed and it let you retain paladinhood while occasionally breaking rules; so neener neener! =D
All this talk has almost convinced me to have my fighter in my local Legacy of Fire game go paladin. He worships Sarenrae already, but he's NG. Need to find some justification and motivation for an alignment shift. I don't want to give up my khopesh though...
Everyone who has ever played a paladin?I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.well..
a paladin is whatever his player plays it :Pif its lawful stupid you then knows whose fault is
Overlooked most of the thread, huh?
Here's the story referenced in the OP's quote:
** spoiler omitted **...
That story is an excellent example of a lawful stupid paladin. Instead of changing HIS ways, which has been shown to be utterly unpragmatic (is that a word?)and undoable without a morally questionable wizard running around cleaning up after his holier than thou self, he instead insists on locking up likely the only person between himself and harm. To his credit he stands by her at defense, but man that sounds like a LOUSY campaign to me.
That paladin is no friend to that wizard. IMO a decent person would have understood, found her actions revelatory, changed his ways as WELL as mentored the wizard and helped them redeem themselves. Instead he has her locked up: Lawful Stupid.
He did understand but had his duty. He forgave her but duty demanded he do what he must. That was not lawful stupid that was good role playing.
Sorry man but you just do not get the paladin at all
All this talk has almost convinced me to have my fighter in my local Legacy of Fire game go paladin. He worships Sarenrae already, but he's NG. Need to find some justification and motivation for an alignment shift. I don't want to give up my khopesh though...
Everyone who has ever played a paladin?I agree with the title of this thread, not its contents.
I've been Pallyrolled.well..
a paladin is whatever his player plays it :Pif its lawful stupid you then knows whose fault is
Overlooked most of the thread, huh?
Here's the story referenced in the OP's quote:
** spoiler omitted **...
That story is an excellent example of a lawful stupid paladin. Instead of changing HIS ways, which has been shown to be utterly unpragmatic (is that a word?)and undoable without a morally questionable wizard running around cleaning up after his holier than thou self, he instead insists on locking up likely the only person between himself and harm. To his credit he stands by her at defense, but man that sounds like a LOUSY campaign to me.
That paladin is no friend to that wizard. IMO a decent person would have understood, found her actions revelatory, changed his ways as WELL as mentored the wizard and helped them redeem themselves. Instead he has her locked up: Lawful Stupid.He did understand but had his duty. He forgave her but duty demanded he do what he must. That was not lawful stupid that was good role playing.
Sorry man but you just do not get the paladin at all
I think my problem is that I DO get the paladin. They're just not anyone I'd ever want to adventure with. Give it up! You won't convert me :P
We're getting off topic here, folks. :)
Meatrace, I respect your right to your opinion. I'm not going to hold your nose to the grindstone and try to convince you. :)
And for the record, "what is a paladin?" is one of the oldest debates in the book. So's alignment discussions, one of which Jason shut down not a day ago. And so are fighter versus wizard. While it's nice to sit back and have some popcorn over it, could we do that in another thread? :) I went a little OT, myself, but this is taking it a bit far--I really am here for the stories!
We're getting off topic here, folks. :)
Meatrace, I respect your right to your opinion. I'm not going to hold your nose to the grindstone and try to convince you. :)
And for the record, "what is a paladin?" is one of the oldest debates in the book. So's alignment discussions, one of which Jason shut down not a day ago. And so are fighter versus wizard. While it's nice to sit back and have some popcorn over it, could we do that in another thread? :) I went a little OT, myself, but this is taking it a bit far--I really am here for the stories!
Well the topic reads "paladins are lawful stupid" thus I'd argue that I'm one of the few on topic :P.
But I'm through here, do continue. *zips mouth*
Eh most would call you a troll who didn't get his way but ok :)
Anyhow my all time fav paladin I played was Grayson Deathstorm. He was a member of the Blue bear Uthgardt barbarian tribe before they fell to evil. He wore dark armor, lots of spikes and fur. Used a barb tip bastard sword named "Harvester" and Talked in archaic English when I used him.
Gods he was fun, first into battle last to leave, very fire and brimstone, more the judge jury and executioner type. He would not drag a man across 80 miles of lawless land for trial he done his crimes in the lawless land filled with evil and that is where he would pay for em.
He was the first to lift a mug( never to excess) and the party over all loved him. While he did get into with the more chaotic of the group it was nothing to disruptive and was often over stuff really unrelated to him being a paladin.
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Why is it so wrong for paladins to be lawful stupid? Especially if the player wants to play that type of character. Generally when a rogue wants to be untrustworthy with he rest of the party, the party is expeted to let the rogue be a rogue until they start going out of their way to screw the party.
Or a Cleric that doesn't heal certain characters for whatever reason, (oppossing churches or alignments, or they are a jerk) is expected to just get over it and do it anyway.
So why are Paladins expected not to be extreme in their beliefs and actions, or else.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think every paladin should be super jerks, but sometimes the group needs to step back and let the player take the lead (Paladins are leaders) and have a little fun with their idea.
While it is ok if that is how you want to play a paladin, It is not ok to say that is how you must play a paladin. What I do think is a paladin so obsesses with Law and Order and rules and not good will not stay a paladin.
Why is it so wrong for paladins to be lawful stupid? Especially if the player wants to play that type of character. Generally when a rogue wants to be untrustworthy with he rest of the party, the party is expeted to let the rogue be a rogue until they start going out of their way to screw the party.
Or a Cleric that doesn't heal certain characters for whatever reason, (oppossing churches or alignments, or they are a jerk) is expected to just get over it and do it anyway.
So why are Paladins expected not to be extreme in their beliefs and actions, or else.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think every paladin should be super jerks, but sometimes the group needs to step back and let the player take the lead (Paladins are leaders) and have a little fun with their idea.
Man, as an aside, I never trust PCs that are supposed to be leaders. I know the people I game with, I wouldn't let them lead me anywhere.
I'm talking about the paladin that destroys evil magic items, essentually tells the party if they do this, I will be forced to fight you, and does not just wantonly kill prisoners.
Well all good pc's should destroy or at lest hide, bury evil magic. As for the other well that's ok to play if that's how you want but that is not the only way to play
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A while back (2nd Ed AD&D), I was playing a paladin in a game where the main theme was supposed to be defeating the "bandit" army secretly controlled by the most powerful noble in the land (who was using it to take over the kingdom). After an adventure or two, defeating some low-mid level fiends peripheral to the main plot and rescuing a holy relic (thought to be a minor holy item), the party stopped through a village on their way to warn the king that some of the kingdom's nobles were involved with the "bandits." That's when the villagers told the party that they couldn't afford to resupply the party since a tribute collection force from the "bandits" was due that day.
My paladin gave his tithe and remaining wealth to the party cleric to donate to the paladin's church and told the rest of the party to continue on to warn the king. He then rode down the road the other way to confront the tribute collectors alone. He took down a squad or two of the "bandits" by himself and the relic (which was still in his possession) took out the tribute collection force's leadership and several hundred troops when his equipment was examined. He didn't save the village from having to pay tribute, but he did weaken and delay the "bandits" while the rest of the party got the warning to the king. "Lawful Stupid?" Maybe, but then Leonidas, Roland, and the troops at The Alamo could be considered in the same light. Did the paladin's death serve the greater good, instead of just his self interest? Definitely, which is why I made the decision, even knowing that it was a deliberate "moral dilemma."
That was perfect, DP.
My own best Paladin experience came from a character in an Iron Kingdoms game who wasn't even originally intended to be Lawful Good, let alone a Paladin.
Dr. Vincent Belmont - LG Male Thurian(Human) AMk11/Pal2/WrC3
Dr. Vincent Belmont started the campaign as a cynically unscrupulous LE Thurian Arcane Mechanik (a specialist in the magic/technology hybrid known as Mechanika) who had been kicked from the Fraternal Brotherhood of Wizardry for his obsession with the paranormal and research into the idea of tapping into the afterlife as a source of limitless power.
The campaign started in the Port City of Clocker's Cove where Dr. Belmont became embroiled in the theft of several ancient artifacts with supposedly supernatural backgrounds. Belmont joined the adventuring party with the intention of absconding with the artifacts at a later point...
And the group was bested at every turn by this lady in shining armor whose team of operatives beat us to the artifacts at every turn.
Our group forced a confrontation and in frustration at being stymied, Dr. Belmont, at this point armed to the teeth with additional mechanikal prosthetics which granted him obscene strength, nearly beat her to death.
Then the DM dropped the bomb. She was his sister... and in the chaos, we had lost the collected artifacts to a third group.
The rest of the journey was a long painful road of atonement guided by a sister who had never given up on her older brother. The final 'push' was her drawn out death at the hands of a former associate who had secretly continued Dr. Belmont's research. When he carried her body into the Church of Morrow and found that the prelates would not bring her back from her final rest, he took up her mission of recovering the artifacts as his own.
Vincent's last hurrah came whilst storming an ancient temple which held the secrets to shaping both flesh and minds. He was last seen overloading his armor and prosthetics to hold up a collapsing ceiling to allow his companions to flee and was killed when his powerfield and back gave out.
I don't have a particularly cool story, but the paladin in our group is not a problem (nor was the paladin before him).
The present guy is eager to throw himself into battle, but smart enough to know when to flee and re-group, always eager to help the "people" with no thought of reward, always willing to follow a trail that seems like it will lead to facing evil, and yet is quiet enough that everyone is willing to seek his counsel and listen to him, including the party's leader, who often relies on the paladin for a "gut check."
As a professor of morality, in my experience, when people express problems with paladins, or insist on playing them as lawful stupid, it reveals more about the player's or group's sense of what "morality" is than an inherent problem with the class. YMMV.
Just curious, but why isn't the paladin the party leader?
A million points of Charisma, the perfect set of leadership skills, and the (typically) pompous superiority that usually goes hand in hand with all the "chosen ones" who rise into important positions within prominent churches.
On the counter point, paladins are not suited to be followers. First, a paladin will lose everything. Power, dignity, respect, etc., if he strays from Lawful Good, so there is almost no way he could follow anyone who isn't Lawful Good. Second, even other Lawful Good allies may have different goals and objectives that the paladin's church doesn't support, so following someone of a different faith is questionable. That leaves following only LG members of the same faith; anything else is reckless (and recklessness is the path to chaos...)
I'm not trying to imply that paladins must lead, but they sure are suited for it, and stupid or not, they're not well suited to taking direction from anyone else who isn't a ranking member of the same faith.
Yeah, everything I just said can go right out the window in any campaign as the paladin and the DM see fit. I'm just curious at how it worked out that your group's paladin isn't the leader. Whoever is the leader must have a good story too.
Blake has a good point in every group I have ever been in with a paladin they are almost always the leader. and the few that were not seemed to fill the counselor role for what do we do next? how do we handle this. and so on. I think he is right it is just a class that gravitates toward leader.
At lest from what I have saw
From personal experience, I've played in more than a few games where the Paladin has served as the moral compass for the group rather than the leader and I've noticed it is as common, if not more, as games where Paladins lead the party.
The unyielding holy warrior is not the only Paladin stereotype and I find the introspective man of faith as common in my group's play style.
Ultimately I feel the above argument is dependent on the the leeway a church gives its members. A more loosely aligned clergy such as Erastil's, might ultimately result in a drastically free-wheeling Paladin than the regimented faith of Abadar.