What happens if... pit trap and horses!


General Discussion (Prerelease)

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Grand Lodge

Ok, got a simple little scenario here and need help figuring out what would happen.

I have a forest path, and a few kobolds have decided it is the perfect place to set up an ambush. In the middle of the trail they have dug a 5 foot square pit trap. Near the pit trap they lie in shallow pits that are covered up.

First thing first, what kind of Perception DC do the PCs get to detect the trap. It has to be passive, as they are not expecting an ambush at all. Also, do they get separate checks for each kobold pit or the trap as a whole only?

Now I also have at least 2 kobolds in trees with a net. I figure a straight up Perception vs Stealth on them. Or do they belong to the trap as a whole?

And this is where the horse comes into it. The PCs will be mounted. What happens when a 5x10 (I don't care what the rules might say, a horse is NOT 10 feet wide) animal steps into a 5x5 trap? And the rider? I assume rider needs to make a Handle Animal role of some kind. To stay mounted (to what advantage?) to control the animal... but what would you do with a horse in a pit half its size?

And how should I deal with a terrified non-warhorse that falls into a pit? A Handle Animal check (what kind of DC) to keep it from thrashing around and injuring its rider and itself (what kind of damage should I roll and what bonuses to attack?)

I can see at least a half dozen answers to every question. ANd every answer leads to more questions.

HELP!

Oh and this MIGHT complicate things... sorry... the Patron is on the horse, and the PCs are on camels...

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Krome wrote:

Ok, got a simple little scenario here and need help figuring out what would happen.

I have a forest path, and a few kobolds have decided it is the perfect place to set up an ambush. In the middle of the trail they have dug a 5 foot square pit trap. Near the pit trap they lie in shallow pits that are covered up.

First thing first, what kind of Perception DC do the PCs get to detect the trap. It has to be passive, as they are not expecting an ambush at all. Also, do they get separate checks for each kobold pit or the trap as a whole only?

Now I also have at least 2 kobolds in trees with a net. I figure a straight up Perception vs Stealth on them. Or do they belong to the trap as a whole?

And this is where the horse comes into it. The PCs will be mounted. What happens when a 5x10 (I don't care what the rules might say, a horse is NOT 10 feet wide) animal steps into a 5x5 trap? And the rider? I assume rider needs to make a Handle Animal role of some kind. To stay mounted (to what advantage?) to control the animal... but what would you do with a horse in a pit half its size?

And how should I deal with a terrified non-warhorse that falls into a pit? A Handle Animal check (what kind of DC) to keep it from thrashing around and injuring its rider and itself (what kind of damage should I roll and what bonuses to attack?)

I can see at least a half dozen answers to every question. ANd every answer leads to more questions.

HELP!

Oh and this MIGHT complicate things... sorry... the Patron is on the horse, and the PCs are on camels...

Some intial thoughts:

How deep is the pit?
What kind of CR / EL are you aiming at?

Anyway, the kobolds in the shallow pits probably took 20 on their stealth check to create them. They are very well hidden.

the kobolds in the trees do check perception versus their stealth, or maybe it is smarter to make that element a trap as well, you'll get better DC's that way.

As it is only a 5 feet pit, I say that the horses and camels are entangled until the rider succeeds on a DC 20 ride check to break free.


A horse with its front quarters in a 5' pit probably cannot get out. Ever.

It would need help from a handful of strong heroes.

If the pit is shallow enough that the horse's legs can rech the bottom before its chest and face slam into the ground at the top of the pit, then it almost certainly has broken legs.

In our world, a lame horse is shot. They don't heal.

In D&D, magical healing would probably fix it, but it's up to you to decide if we're talking about Regenerate to heal a lame horse (it's somewhat the same thing as a human with his arm badly mangled in heavy machinery - still attached to the body but permanently useless) or can a lesser cure spell heal a lame horse.

I don't know how much of that applies to camels. While I've owned a horse, I've never owned a camel or known anyone who has.

So for lack of better info, I would treat camels the same in this regard.

As for spotting the trap, I agree with the previous post - kobolds take 20 on burying themselves, so the DC on those guys is 20 + stealth +4 for total cover. That's going to be so hard for PCs to spot (and if you are, then why are you fighting kobolds?), that unless you're traveling with the God of Perception, I doubt you will even need to roll.

Which leaves spotting the two in the tree with the net.

Kobolds are clever trapmakers. They live for ambushes. So why are they being stupid enough to build this wonderful trap, guaranteed to get them some horseflesh for dinner tonight, then leaving two idiots out in plain sight?

If you insist on having them there, then it's a simple opposed roll, stealth vs. perception. You might want to try for some distance modifiers (100' in bright sunlight, but make this a night ambush or rule that the thick forest canopy reduces that value greatly) and the kobolds may benefit from having a little distance, if they are behind the pit in the road.

Or place them so that when players charge forward to get the easily spotted kobolds they fall into the pit.

Or, since it's passive, just figure out what your best passive perception roll will be (the ranger? rogue? cleric?) and assume the kobolds rolled 1 point higher on their stealth check (this is why passive perception is evil).

Scarab Sages

¡Hi!

About the perception rolls: I'd roll Perception for players & horses, but with -5 to check because they are not expecting the ambush. Later confrot the roll with all hiding kobolds and traps, leting they "take 10" to stealth.

If one player rolls 12 an other 16, and the pit have and Perception DC of 10 and the kobolds in trees of 18, both players see the trap, but only the second player see the kobolds. In the surprise round let the player acts only against (A) menaces that they can see or (B) menaces that already are acting in their turns.

About the horses:
If the player mount don't see the pit, let the horse do its own perception roll agains it:
-The horse see the pit, jumps over it, and the rider rolls Riding to not fall down.
-The horse don't see the pit. Knocks down and takes damage from the pit, but isn't is *inside* the pit, only knock down in the floor. The rider shoud roll ride to avoid be tripped by the horse.
A Handle Animal CD 15 should be enough to calm the horse and let him to get up and move out the pit.

I'm not a natural english speaker, but I think is clear enough to help you. I'll try ellaborate more if you want.


Krome wrote:

(I don't care what the rules might say, a horse is NOT 10 feet wide)

what an odd mental image, thats a very staut horse :)... but what about 10 feet long.


DM_Blake wrote:


In our world, a lame horse is shot. They don't heal.

In D&D, magical healing would probably fix it, but it's up to you to decide if we're talking about Regenerate to heal a lame horse (it's somewhat the same thing as a human with his arm badly mangled in heavy machinery - still attached to the body but permanently useless) or can a lesser cure spell heal a lame horse.

It seems rather strange to force the PC's to use Regenerate to recover from a pit trap. If a PC fell into the trap, he'd take Nd6 hit points of damage from falling. Broken bones don't seem out of line for the description. Regardless, enough Cure Light Wounds spells would heal him completely? Why should a different character require a completely different spell (which is also a much higher level spell).

To answer the original poster, if the horse starts to fall in the pit, I'd give it a circumstance bonus on the reflex save to avoid falling, since most of it's body isn't over the pit and it still has both it's back legs on (or at least over) firm ground. (I'm assuming they're walking through the forest at a "we're going to ride all day pace".) +4 seems about right: quadrupeds often get that as a stability bonus.

If the horse does fall into the pit, it would also get the penalties for being squeezed. (-4 AC and to hit, I think. Movement penalties wouldn't really matter.)

Assuming the ride DC's haven't changed since 3.5 and the horse falls into the pit, the PC also has the option of:

Ride DC 5: stay on the horse (not an action). If failed, the rider also falls into the pit and takes falling damage per the pit +1d6 for falling of the horse.
Ride DC 20: control the horse (move action). If failed, the horse thrashes around and the rider can't do anything else. I might also have the horse do unarmed damage to the rider (and possibly itself) while it's flailing.

I'd probably also allow a Ride check (DC 20) at a penalty to do a quick dismount and have the rider end up on the ground outside the pit. I'd probably give a -5 penalty, since the rider is surprised by this. If the check is failed, I'd probably either have him dismount into the pit (if he failed by a little (5 or less?)) or fall into the pit (if he failed by a lot). If he failed by a little, I might let him try to then stay on the horse, but a sizable penalty.


Huge imponderables here. :)

Ok, let's start at the top. A lot of people had good stuff about the traps. However, I would think it wouldn't be the goblin's stealth to hide the traps, it would be their trapmaking. SO...

DC to Spot Trap : Craft(Trapmaking) + 20 (No reason they can't take their time)

DC to Spot Burried Kobolds : 20 + Stealth + 4 (as said above)

DC to Spot Kobolds in tree's : HOW DO KOBOLDS GET IN TREES!

If you really want kobolds in tree's, fine, but they should get a hide of Stealth + 20 (no reason they can't make a leaf blind to hide behind, and take time to do it. But really, kobolds in tree's? Come on!).

Horses are Large Length Quadrupeds, so they are 5 wide and 10 long, per RAW. Same with Camels.

Assuming the pit traps are 5x5x5, then the horses take 1d3 damage from falling into the pit trap (if they do).

However, that's situational, since they horses are moving along.

At a walk, a straight 1d3, I'd say (1d6 per 10 feet, halfed is 1d3), and the horses get a reflex save (DC 18) to avoid the pit trap (rearing up). Either way, the rider has to make a ride check (DC 20 I'd say) to avoid falling off at the unexpected rearing. If they fall in, they're going in head first and the rest of their weight crashes down on them. I'd say that adds a 1d6/round crushing as their own weight chokes them death, they can't get out. If the rider is still on, he's probably getting smashed by the thrashing horse, so give him 1d8 per round of bashing damage, until he get's off and out of the pit, or a reflex save to dive off as the horse goes in.

If they are trotting, then they have some momentum, but more than likely they still end up in the bottom of the pit. However, they might have just enough momentum to jump the pit with their hind legs when it starts to fall in, give them a DC 20 reflex save to jump. Rider get's a DC 15 Ride check (easier to stay on a jumping horse than a rearing one) to stay on. If the horse fails the jump, he likely falls backwards into the pit, and same as first one, only butt first, his weight cracking his back legs as he thrashes.

Finally, he could be cantering or galloping. I'd treat these the same since it's a 5 footer. Reflex DC 25 to jump the pit, rider get's the same 15 Ride to stay on if the horse jumps. If the horse fails, he slams into the pit side at full force, so do 4d6 damage (assuming horse has move of 40, give him 1d6 for each 10' of movement). Then he falls into the pit. The rider needs a Ride DC 22 to stay on the horse (or a reflex 20 to dive off and avoid being in the pit with the horse), which is really a bad idea honestly, being on a wounded paniced animal the size of a horse in a 5x5x5 pit.

I'd do the same for the camels.

That's my 2c worth.

Liberty's Edge

Just make it a 10'x10'x10' pit (with spikes if the kobolds are worth their scales). It would be about CR1 (no reset or requires skill check, only 10' deep instead of 20'). Add 4 kobolds for another CR1 encounter and that's EL3 IIRC. A tough encounter for low level PC's.

The kobolds would have a hide/stealth of 20 if they take 10 (+6 for out of book kobold, +4 cover, takes 10). You could make them the type of Golarion kobold that has a bonus to stealth checks (green? black?) and get another bonus there. IMO if they took 20, the DC for the PC's to spot them would be too high for a group of low level characters.

The Exchange

The 5' pit is definatly going to kill the horse who drop front legs in it. The faster, the more destructive the accident is going to be. Consider the Pit to be a CR threat to the Horses first rather than the PCs, but the PCs will be the ones looking for them with Perception.


Xuttah wrote:
IMO if they took 20, the DC for the PC's to spot them would be too high for a group of low level characters.

That right there is the million dollar question, isn't it.

Does the DM want the PCs to spot the trap, or does he want them not to?

Really this comes down to encounter design.

8 kobolds standing on the road, sitting around, waiting for a group of heroes to come by and slaughter them, is a very easy encounter.

8 kobolds with a well-planned trap that eliminates one PC from the fight (maybe with that net), a good ambush, and a deadly surprise round, can be a much more difficult encounter.

Which type of encounter is the DM creating?

Should the PCs just kill a handful of kobolds and walk away without a scratch, or should they be seriously tested by this encounter?

Decide which kind of encounter it is, then ask youself this:

In order to get the kind of encounter I want, is it important for the PCs to spot the trap/ambush, or is it necessary for them to fail to spot the trap/ambush?

Ultimately, you (the DM) can create this encounter any way you like.

Plan 8 kobolds but they get the ambush (guaranteed) so make the DC practically impossible.

Or do the opposite, plan 12 kobolds, or 16 kobolds, but let the PCs spot the ambush and avoid it, and after the difficult fight, just drop a hint about how they would have died if the ranger hadn't made that spot check...

Or add a kobold leader. Or give them all poison on their crossbow bolts for the surprise round. Or have a griffon fly down and attack the players from behind while they're busy with the kobolds. Or have the kobodls actually be the servants of a lich who teleports into the encounter in mid-fight. Or...

My point is, the DM can make this encounter as hard or as easy as he wants.

The trap can either be part of the encounter, or it can be fluff (because the PCs easily avoid it).

Likewise with the ambush, part of the encounter or fluff.

Either way, if it's not fluff, it makes the encounter harder, so gauge what the PCs can handle and set the difficulty according to that, with or without the trap and ambush.

And once you decide that, setting the perception DCs is easy. Really high if the PCs are supposed to deal with the trap and ambush, or really low if all you want is the fluff.

And this is 100x easier if you're using simple passive perception checks.


yellowdingo wrote:
The 5' pit is definatly going to kill the horse who drop front legs in it. The faster, the more destructive the accident is going to be. Consider the Pit to be a CR threat to the Horses first rather than the PCs, but the PCs will be the ones looking for them with Perception.

Yep,

There's a chance the horses would avoid it (why I gave them a reflex save), if not, whatever horse goes in is dead, just a question of how many thrashes it get's before it puts a bone through an artery and bleeds to death. Which, honestly, is probably all the kobolds want anyway, a nice horsey dinner. I doubt if they would attack the PC's as long as the PC's leave the (dead) horse behind.


DM_Blake wrote:
<lots of good stuff>

DING DING DING!

DM_Blake for the win! Exactly, the DC for the pits and kobolds (and their numbers) should be determined by whether this is a cakewalk or bloodbath scenario.

Grand Lodge

mmmmm... OK, how about the kobolds in the trees have a prepared blind there, even partially into the tree itself! :) Mainly I want the koblods in the tree for an added element of combat. Fighting everyone ground level is common. Fighting both ground and some in trees is more difficult (crossbow bolts can hurt a LOT). This is a 1st level encounter, so with those guys in the trees it could be deadly.

I am assuming the pit is a common hidden pit and 10 feet deep. The horse, being 5 feet wide and 10 feet long could fit all the way down inside. Especially if "crumpled."

So, I am thinking from the above posts, have two elements to the trap- lower part and upper part. The PCs get two chances to see the trap coming. The DCs are real high though since the kobolds will take either 20 or 10 (depends upon what final rules have to say about hide checks and taking 20), plus their modifiers. Very hard to spot, but not impossible.

The horse is probably doomed to fall into the pit. This horse will be their patron (PCs are behind him). They are on a day out hunting stag. Patron has a crossbow, PCs might bring ranged weapons or not, as they are not to shoot at the stag- they are bodyguards essentially.

The horse falls into the pit. Patron needs a Handle Animal DC7 ( 5 plus a +2 circumstance) to stay mounted (if unmounted the Patron is likely dead- he has a 1200 pound horse landing on him which is 6d6 damage). Another Handle Animal DC 17 (15 plus +2 circumstance) to keep the horse from flailing and doing another d4+1 flailing/kicking damage per round to both horse and rider.

Fight ensues. At the end, the PCs can elect to cast Cure Light to mend the horses wounds. Hopefully patron is still alive (I'll make him so he has enough Handle Animal modifiers he will fail a DC 7 only on a roll of 1-2 I think).

The PCs are safe from the falling and flailing horse for the most part. Their risk comes from the Kobolds themselves. But being mounted they have some advantages as well- but the trees of the forest restrict some of their movement. So it is a complicated encounter. PCs without Handle Animal (and even those who have it and it is low) are likely to dismount to fight I think.

How does this sound?

Last thing I just realized I need to know. Where are rules for squeezing into tight spaces? I figure on two tunnels to allow the fleeing kobolds a chance to escape. A tight fit for them. So need to know what to expect should a halfling or gnome try to follow, and if a dumb medium sized PC tries to follow.

The Exchange

mdt wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
The 5' pit is definatly going to kill the horse who drop front legs in it. The faster, the more destructive the accident is going to be. Consider the Pit to be a CR threat to the Horses first rather than the PCs, but the PCs will be the ones looking for them with Perception.

Yep,

There's a chance the horses would avoid it (why I gave them a reflex save), if not, whatever horse goes in is dead, just a question of how many thrashes it get's before it puts a bone through an artery and bleeds to death. Which, honestly, is probably all the kobolds want anyway, a nice horsey dinner. I doubt if they would attack the PC's as long as the PC's leave the (dead) horse behind.

The Kobolds better hope the PCs aint French...it could be a real pitfight over who eats the horse.

Grand Lodge

And it all gets more complicated too... this encounter leads right into another almost immediately involving an Allip (this encounter the PCs can choose to go straight into or rest before they go in and find the Allip).

And yeah, I want them to come away HATING kobolds with a passion. In essence, this encounter is the one that will set the tone for the game. Be on your toes or you die.

And from the Kobold point of view... they just want a nice fresh dinner of horse and human.

So... do I keep the pit trap, or choose something else? Another choice I could use is to have a hidden net spring up round the patron, and the hidden kobolds rush to kill him and the horse with polearms. Personally I think the pit is more in line with kobolds- and nastier.


Krome wrote:

mmmmm... OK, how about the kobolds in the trees have a prepared blind there, even partially into the tree itself! :) Mainly I want the koblods in the tree for an added element of combat. Fighting everyone ground level is common. Fighting both ground and some in trees is more difficult (crossbow bolts can hurt a LOT). This is a 1st level encounter, so with those guys in the trees it could be deadly.

Very deadly if the NPC's didn't bring any ranged attacks. However, from your description below, this is a hunting party, so everyone should have a ranged weapon of some type (probably crossbows or short bows). You might want to have the patron point out (with a bit of a snitty attitude) to anyone that doesn't have a ranged attack that they are useless. :)

Krome wrote:


I am assuming the pit is a common hidden pit and 10 feet deep. The horse, being 5 feet wide and 10 feet long could fit all the way down inside. Especially if "crumpled."

So, I am thinking from the above posts, have two elements to the trap- lower part and upper part. The PCs get two chances to see the trap coming. The DCs are real high though since the kobolds will take either 20 or 10 (depends upon what final rules have to say about hide checks and taking 20), plus their modifiers. Very hard to spot, but not impossible.

The horse is probably doomed to fall into the pit. This horse will be their patron (PCs are behind him). They are on a day out hunting stag. Patron has a crossbow, PCs might bring ranged weapons or not, as they are not to shoot at the stag- they are bodyguards essentially.

The horse falls into the pit. Patron needs a Handle Animal DC7 ( 5 plus a +2 circumstance) to stay mounted (if unmounted the Patron is likely dead- he has a 1200 pound horse landing on him which is 6d6 damage). Another Handle Animal DC 17 (15 plus +2 circumstance) to keep the horse from flailing and doing another d4+1 flailing/kicking damage per round to both horse and rider.

Fight ensues. At the end, the PCs can elect to cast Cure Light to mend the horses wounds. Hopefully patron is still alive (I'll make him so he has enough Handle Animal modifiers he will fail a DC 7 only on a roll of 1-2 I think).

Uh...

No...
You put a 1200lb horse into a 5x5x10 foot pit, the following is all guarnateed :

1) You AIN'T controlling that horse, I don't care if you got 30 ranks in Ride, he's got broken legs, he's got his own weight on his neck, crushing the life out of him, and he's GOING to panic.
2) You can't cure enough fast enough to keep that horse alive in that type of pit.
3) How in blazes are you going to get the horse out of the pit in the first place to heal him?!?! 1200lbs in a 5x5x10 pit is not being pulled out by it's tail. Not even a halfling could get down in there to tie a rope around that horses butt (assuming one would be insane enough to climb down into the pit with a presumeably thrashing horse dieing bloody horse).

Give up on the horse, it's dead.

And, if the patron makes his ride check to stay on, he's dead too, you don't stay alive in a 5x5x10 pit with a panic'd horse, especially since his bulk would be crushing you against the side of the pit, shattering your pelvis and spine.

The Patron will have to make a reflex save to dive off the horse as it goes head first into the pit. Any living creature in the pit with the horse is as dead as the horse.

That's ok though, that works out well for you. The PC's see the patron go flying nose first into the dirt on the road, the horse screams and cracking bones sound. The patron's crossbow goes flying into the bushes, and kobolds leap up from their pit to kill the patron.

Looks like a perfect job for PC's. And it can be so fun if the Patron fails his reflex save or they fail to save him, now they're not only out a patron, but probably his kin is looking for the PC's with blood in their eyes. :)

Krome wrote:

The PCs are safe from the falling and flailing horse for the most part. Their risk comes from the Kobolds themselves....

And the relatives of the Patron if they mess it up. :)


Krome wrote:
Last thing I just realized I need to know. Where are rules for squeezing into tight spaces? I figure on two tunnels to allow the fleeing kobolds a chance to escape. A tight fit for them. So need to know what to expect should a halfling or gnome try to follow, and if a dumb medium sized PC tries to follow.

If the tunnel is comfortably sized for a kobold to move at normal speed, then so can a halfling or gnome. And they can all fight in that tunnel without penalties, though they have to be single file.

Squeezing rules are on page 144:

Pathfinder Beta, page 144, Squeezing wrote:

Squeezing:

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

Unless you want to make it narrower than that even, in which case the tunnel is so narrow that kobolds, halflings, and gnomes follow the squeezing rules and anyone medium sized must have Escape Artist and must continually make escape artist rolls just to move, and cannot attack at all.

Grand Lodge

I sort of want the PCs to know fear of kobolds. I remember a LONG time at NanCon in Houston we were higher level characters and going through a cave system. We encountered kobolds and thought "No big deal- cake walk."

One player died from a fall into a pit. The Wizard died to crosbows from kobolds behind cover. I died from a falling boulder. etc, etc etc... TPK.

We were about 10th level and wiped on kobolds... I HATE kobolds to this day.

Now I don't want to design a TPK, but they should come away HATING kobolds forever.

Grand Lodge

mdt wrote:
Krome wrote:

mmmmm... OK, how about the kobolds in the trees have a prepared blind there, even partially into the tree itself! :) Mainly I want the koblods in the tree for an added element of combat. Fighting everyone ground level is common. Fighting both ground and some in trees is more difficult (crossbow bolts can hurt a LOT). This is a 1st level encounter, so with those guys in the trees it could be deadly.

Very deadly if the NPC's didn't bring any ranged attacks. However, from your description below, this is a hunting party, so everyone should have a ranged weapon of some type (probably crossbows or short bows). You might want to have the patron point out (with a bit of a snitty attitude) to anyone that doesn't have a ranged attack that they are useless. :)

Krome wrote:


I am assuming the pit is a common hidden pit and 10 feet deep. The horse, being 5 feet wide and 10 feet long could fit all the way down inside. Especially if "crumpled."

So, I am thinking from the above posts, have two elements to the trap- lower part and upper part. The PCs get two chances to see the trap coming. The DCs are real high though since the kobolds will take either 20 or 10 (depends upon what final rules have to say about hide checks and taking 20), plus their modifiers. Very hard to spot, but not impossible.

The horse is probably doomed to fall into the pit. This horse will be their patron (PCs are behind him). They are on a day out hunting stag. Patron has a crossbow, PCs might bring ranged weapons or not, as they are not to shoot at the stag- they are bodyguards essentially.

The horse falls into the pit. Patron needs a Handle Animal DC7 ( 5 plus a +2 circumstance) to stay mounted (if unmounted the Patron is likely dead- he has a 1200 pound horse landing on him which is 6d6 damage). Another Handle Animal DC 17 (15 plus +2 circumstance) to keep the horse from flailing and doing another d4+1...

Ummm, yeah you are soooo right. Dead horse for dinner tonight!

The Exchange

Krome wrote:
Personally I think the pit is more in line with kobolds- and nastier.

I believe the key words with Kobolds and traps is 'gets the job done'.

Grand Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:
Krome wrote:
Last thing I just realized I need to know. Where are rules for squeezing into tight spaces? I figure on two tunnels to allow the fleeing kobolds a chance to escape. A tight fit for them. So need to know what to expect should a halfling or gnome try to follow, and if a dumb medium sized PC tries to follow.

If the tunnel is comfortably sized for a kobold to move at normal speed, then so can a halfling or gnome. And they can all fight in that tunnel without penalties, though they have to be single file.

Squeezing rules are on page 144:

Pathfinder Beta, page 144, Squeezing wrote:

Squeezing:

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
Unless you want to make it narrower than that even, in which case the tunnel is so narrow that kobolds, halflings, and gnomes follow the squeezing rules and anyone medium sized must have Escape Artist and must continually make escape artist rolls just to move, and cannot attack at all.

Yep, IF the PCs follow the fleeing kobolds I want the tunnels to make small characters squeeze even. They don't want pesky gnomes and halflings following with ease.


Heh,
This reminds me of something I did to my players. Two ForestKith goblins. They set up a net-sling trap 200 feet from the PC's. A 15x15 foot net, tied to two 100 foot sapplings that were bent over. Then they snuck up on the camp about 3AM, and started shooting arrows tipped in poison and diseased animal flesh at the PC's as they slept from 60 feet away (PC's had a campfire going). They plugged the Centaur first, of course, him being the biggest. They put a single arrow into each PC, and then started running away. As soon as they ran, the Centaur took off after them, finally seeing them.

They stop 10 feet on the other side of the trap and start firing arrows at the charging centaur. He get's 3 more arrows in his hide, and then he hits the trap. The tree's snap up, jerk the net up around all four of his legs, then it throws him 40 feet into a large oak tree. He takes almost 50 hps (plus the 15 or so from the arrows), and fails his con roll and passes out (took over half his hp's in one blow). The PC's race up, find him laying bloody and busted on the ground, all four legs shattered, ribs sticking out of his hide. The CN scout/warlock votes to cook his horse half and bury the human half. That get's shot down quickly (and the s/w get's busted in the back of the head by the marshal, who's the nominal leader).

They end up having to put splints on all his legs and tape up his ribs before the cleric and druid heal him, so he can walk right the next day.

The goblins got away scott free of course, and over the next 3-4 days, they continued to take potshots at the PC's, infecting them repeatedly with diseases and poisons, ensuring the druid and cleric had to spend their spells almost every day getting rid of them. :)

Man they hated those two goblins. :) It was the most fun I've had in years. :)

Liberty's Edge

Sounds like the Allip is the key encounter here. The kobolds are just there to bloody the PC's nose a bit. You don't want them to be too bashed up to face the allip or they'll be wiped out. I'd say Perception DC 24 for the pit trap (SRD standard for it) and the same for some Black/Greenscale kobolds taking 10 in the bushes/prepared ambush spot. Hard, but not impossible and a ranged combat duel will ensue. Horse is doomed though.

If you want the PC's to hate kobolds, have them get away! When one or two of the little reptilian bastards get wounded or die, just have them flee into the underbrush/bolt holes (hit and run is the kobold style). Follow up with a rude gesture or taunt, and I guarantee the party ranger will take them as his next favoured enemy. :)

Add insult to injury and have the kobolds strip the horse carcass when the PC's leave the scene and let the PC's discover it afterwards.


Krome wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Unless you want to make it narrower than that even, in which case the tunnel is so narrow that kobolds, halflings, and gnomes follow the squeezing rules and anyone medium sized must have Escape Artist and must continually make escape artist rolls just to move, and cannot attack at all.
Yep, IF the PCs follow the fleeing kobolds I want the tunnels to make small characters squeeze even. They don't want pesky gnomes and halflings following with ease.

Well, that will keep most medium sized characters out of the tunnels.

But the kobolds cannot really make a tunnel through which they can move freely but halflings and gnomes must squeeze.

So if you make the halflings and gnomes squeeze, the kobolds have to squeeze too, which means they can't get away easily.

Equal squeezing for all the small guys, and no entry for the medium guys - unless the medium guys want to use Escape Artist for every move they make.

Unfortunately, the skill doesn't give movement rates - all it says is that it can take a minute to squeeze through a "tight space" or longer for longer spaces, without defining the length of the space to begin with, so I might say the "tight space" in the skill description is a 5' square, so even with Escape Artist, the medium guys are moving 5' per minute and cannot fight at all.

Liberty's Edge

Instead of the pit trap, you could rig up any one of the Ewok traps from Return of the Jedi. Kobolds, ewoks, the only difference is the fur, just ask an Imperial storm trooper.

If the kobolds are targeting primarily the horse for dinner, they would only have to assure the trap worked, harrass the party from a distance with crossbows, then fade into the woods to come back later once the carcass has aged nicely and the cranky meat sack players have run away. Should foolish players chase down the kobolds in the woods, well, RotJ showed the success rate for that folly, too.

The sound track is available online if you want to add music for ambience.

Liberty's Edge

You can also place a concealed/secret door at the bottom of the pit that goes to the kobold lair. They use it to dispatch trapped prey and make it easier to take the meat below. There may be a problem for the PCs getting to it though as the pit will be full of horse. :)


Darian Graey wrote:

Instead of the pit trap, you could rig up any one of the Ewok traps from Return of the Jedi. Kobolds, ewoks, the only difference is the fur, just ask an Imperial storm trooper.

If the kobolds are targeting primarily the horse for dinner, they would only have to assure the trap worked, harrass the party from a distance with crossbows, then fade into the woods to come back later once the carcass has aged nicely and the cranky meat sack players have run away. Should foolish players chase down the kobolds in the woods, well, RotJ showed the success rate for that folly, too.

The sound track is available online if you want to add music for ambience.

Yep,

Killing the patron and stealing his gold would, of course, be a nice prize, but they aren't going to bother fighting much if it looks like things are not going to be easy. That horse will feed four kobolds for 2 or 3 weeks.


Xuttah wrote:
You can also place a concealed/secret door at the bottom of the pit that goes to the kobold lair. They use it to dispatch trapped prey and make it easier to take the meat below. There may be a problem for the PCs getting to it though as the pit will be full of horse. :)

LOL

I love it.

Kobold 1 : "Hey honey, how much horsie meat we got left?"
Kobold 2 : Opens secret door into pit, looks out. "Uhm, we got about half the horse left, and the stupid 'ooman that was riding it, we haven't really started in on it yet.'
Kobold 1 : "Mmmm, let's have ooman liver tonight, if we're lucky, there's a sack of gold somewhere near there."

Liberty's Edge

mdt wrote:


That horse will feed four kobolds for 2 or 3 weeks.

A bit longer I'd say. A small humanoid requires a quarter the food of a medium character (small-size rations are 1/4 the weight), so a 2000lb horse is enough to feed a tribe for some time (especially since they're not picky eaters and will consume most of it).

Sovereign Court

Passive? no Perception checks allowed, unless you're an elf (in which case I would allow for a passive Perception check by the said elf when he gets to within 10 feet of the pit).

Outcome: the horse make Ref save as per a pit trap; if the riders have ranks in Ride, I would allow them to substitute the save for a Ride check instead (horse rolls Ref save; rider makes Ride check; the highest result is kept).

Traps are nasty things, at high speed... a wire between two trees can take a rider's head off pretty quickly; a horse falling in a trap at high speed is no better than dead, even if it survives...

EDIT: the SRD actually mentions that you don't even get a save if you're running... so if the horses are taking the "run" action, they're screwed. If just double moving along the forest, or "hustling", which seems to be the typical overland speed, then they make a save. By the way, which one is the "official" overland speed? Speed x1 or Speed x2 (i.e. "hustling") I know horses have to make saves when they hustle... AFAIK...

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Anecdotal bit -- in Napoleonic battles, there was an actual situation where a troop of cavelry (light Brits, if I remember right) were charging a Spanish line through a field ... and vanished from sight within 20-30' of their target. They hit a sunken road between the fields they didn't know about, and lost most of the horse and several of the men to the resulting fall and pile up ;p


mdt wrote:

Huge imponderables here. :)

Horses are Large Length Quadrupeds, so they are 5 wide and 10 long, per RAW. Same with Camels.

I missed this RAW in the beta. Can you point me in the right direction?


Bitter Thorn wrote:
mdt wrote:

Huge imponderables here. :)

Horses are Large Length Quadrupeds, so they are 5 wide and 10 long, per RAW. Same with Camels.

I missed this RAW in the beta. Can you point me in the right direction?

I'm trying to find it, it wasn't in the Beta, it is in the original SRD for 3.5. Something to the effect that LONG (not TALL) creatures control a square area equal to their length (10 foot square in this case, for the horse), but are half-that width. But I can't find it.


IIRC this changed between 3.0 and 3.5; We still house rule 5 x 10 horses IMG.

mdt wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
mdt wrote:

Huge imponderables here. :)

Horses are Large Length Quadrupeds, so they are 5 wide and 10 long, per RAW. Same with Camels.

I missed this RAW in the beta. Can you point me in the right direction?
I'm trying to find it, it wasn't in the Beta, it is in the original SRD for 3.5. Something to the effect that LONG (not TALL) creatures control a square area equal to their length (10 foot square in this case, for the horse), but are half-that width. But I can't find it.


Bitter Thorn wrote:

IIRC this changed between 3.0 and 3.5; We still house rule 5 x 10 horses IMG.

mdt wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
mdt wrote:

Huge imponderables here. :)

Horses are Large Length Quadrupeds, so they are 5 wide and 10 long, per RAW. Same with Camels.

I missed this RAW in the beta. Can you point me in the right direction?
I'm trying to find it, it wasn't in the Beta, it is in the original SRD for 3.5. Something to the effect that LONG (not TALL) creatures control a square area equal to their length (10 foot square in this case, for the horse), but are half-that width. But I can't find it.

Well,

I guess we have been too. Nobody in their right mind thinks a horse can't gallop at full tilt down a 5 foot wide corridor without touching either side. At most, 3 feet wide. And that's a fat horsie.

Grand Lodge

I think in the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they decided that all creatures were square (and therefore totally uncool!). So all large creatures occupy a space of 10x10. So in 3.5, two horses side by side are 20 feet wide and 10 feet long. Totally makes sense, don't you think- NOT!

So all those city maps they made with 10-20 foot wide streets, are one horse, or one way streets.


That's one of many reasons that we stuck with 5 x 10 horses. ;)

Krome wrote:

I think in the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they decided that all creatures were square (and therefore totally uncool!). So all large creatures occupy a space of 10x10. So in 3.5, two horses side by side are 20 feet wide and 10 feet long. Totally makes sense, don't you think- NOT!

So all those city maps they made with 10-20 foot wide streets, are one horse, or one way streets.


Krome wrote:

Ok, got a simple little scenario here and need help figuring out what would happen.

I have a forest path, and a few kobolds have decided it is the perfect place to set up an ambush. In the middle of the trail they have dug a 5 foot square pit trap. Near the pit trap they lie in shallow pits that are covered up.

First thing first, what kind of Perception DC do the PCs get to detect the trap. It has to be passive, as they are not expecting an ambush at all. Also, do they get separate checks for each kobold pit or the trap as a whole only?

Now I also have at least 2 kobolds in trees with a net. I figure a straight up Perception vs Stealth on them. Or do they belong to the trap as a whole?

And this is where the horse comes into it. The PCs will be mounted. What happens when a 5x10 (I don't care what the rules might say, a horse is NOT 10 feet wide) animal steps into a 5x5 trap? And the rider? I assume rider needs to make a Handle Animal role of some kind. To stay mounted (to what advantage?) to control the animal... but what would you do with a horse in a pit half its size?

And how should I deal with a terrified non-warhorse that falls into a pit? A Handle Animal check (what kind of DC) to keep it from thrashing around and injuring its rider and itself (what kind of damage should I roll and what bonuses to attack?)

I can see at least a half dozen answers to every question. ANd every answer leads to more questions.

HELP!

Oh and this MIGHT complicate things... sorry... the Patron is on the horse, and the PCs are on camels...

Krome,

This scenario sounds eerily similar to an encounter I ran only a few weeks ago… a horse actually fell into the pit!

I suggest simply making the pit bigger. 10'-10 perhaps?

As far as a DC goes, I used DC 22 I think. I figured that the kobolds had all the time in the world and took 20. Not sure if you can on that particular skill, but it seemed to make sense.

Also, I had the kobolds line the pit with wooden stakes. They also captured two dire rats and placed them in the bottom of the pit. After the rats and spikes do the dirty work, the kobolds fish out what's left of the victim(s) with hooks on long poles and feast.

I like the net idea. I had kobolds hiding in the trees as well, but with swinging ropes… they would attempt to knock anyone near the pit into it (with a bull rush attempt).

Hope that helps.


Krome wrote:

And it all gets more complicated too... this encounter leads right into another almost immediately involving an Allip (this encounter the PCs can choose to go straight into or rest before they go in and find the Allip).

And yeah, I want them to come away HATING kobolds with a passion. In essence, this encounter is the one that will set the tone for the game. Be on your toes or you die.

And from the Kobold point of view... they just want a nice fresh dinner of horse and human.

So... do I keep the pit trap, or choose something else? Another choice I could use is to have a hidden net spring up round the patron, and the hidden kobolds rush to kill him and the horse with polearms. Personally I think the pit is more in line with kobolds- and nastier.

I ran my encounter at level 2 and it was pretty nasty, but it was the most memorable encounter of the evening. IMHO, I wouldn't sweat the minute details too much. I think your players will definitely have a healthy dislike of kobolds after an encounter like this.


Bitter Thorn wrote:

That's one of many reasons that we stuck with 5 x 10 horses. ;)

Krome wrote:

I think in the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they decided that all creatures were square (and therefore totally uncool!). So all large creatures occupy a space of 10x10. So in 3.5, two horses side by side are 20 feet wide and 10 feet long. Totally makes sense, don't you think- NOT!

So all those city maps they made with 10-20 foot wide streets, are one horse, or one way streets.

I don't have a problem with a horse (especially a wild or war horse) tactically controlling a 10x10 square (I used to own one, and he was a nasty evil meanspirited *@#*@# who could whirl around and kick your legs out from under you faster than you could blink and be back around to bite you on the arm as you flailed to the ground). I do have an issue with them being 10 feet wide for purposes of falling into a 5 foot wide pit. By that same logic, tiger traps would never catch a tiger (they are 5x5x10 to keep it from jumping out, at 10x10x10 they can get a running start and leap out).


mdt wrote:
I don't have a problem with a horse (especially a wild or war horse) tactically controlling a 10x10 square (I used to own one, and he was a nasty evil meanspirited *@#*@# who could whirl around and kick your legs out from under you faster than you could blink and be back around to bite you on the arm as you flailed to the ground). I do have an issue with them being 10 feet wide for purposes of falling into a 5 foot wide pit. By that same logic, tiger traps would never catch a tiger (they are 5x5x10 to keep it from jumping out, at 10x10x10 they can get a running start and leap out).

You've hit it right on the head.

No way a horse is 10' long. It's approximately 8'. Ask anyone who races horses; when the guy says "Seabiscuit won by a length" he is saying about 8'.

And absolutely no way it is 10'wide. Elephants aren't 10' wide.

On a battlefield, if the horse is fighting instead of running away, it will whirl and kick and control a space 10'x10' - anyone crazy enough to get into that space is going to be trampled.

But walking or even running, it only takes up a few feet in width (technically, not even 5').

So yeah, the gamist 10'x10' thing is a combat statistic and not intended to represent the true dimensions of the horse.

If it were, then those 10'x10' ogres (who are only about 8-9' tall) would look awfully, impossibly, fat. That's not even Sumo Ogre. That's crazy cartoon anime fat ogre.

Ridiculous.

So let's apply a little common sense here. A horse does not need a 10' pit to fall into, nor does it need a 10' city street to travel on (or 20' wide to allow two-way traffic), and a team of horses (almost always 2 horses wide) does not require 20' of space to pull a 6' wide wagon.

Grand Lodge

Quick question again... According to Beta, 4 kobolds would be worth XP for a level one encounter.

Is 4 enough? I was thinking around 6-8.

Two on the ground, to deal with the pit and poke at the patron with polearms (do small polearms have reach?). Then I figured on at least 4 more in the trees to provide covering fire.

Now the pit is not a threat to the PCs themselves. It is a plot device to stop the PCs so I can ambush them.

BTW this is the second encounter in the adventure. The first is against goblins, and sort of a nod to Burnt Offerings. So by the time they are done with this encounter they will HATE goblins and kobolds. I hope.


Krome wrote:

Quick question again... According to Beta, 4 kobolds would be worth XP for a level one encounter.

Is 4 enough? I was thinking around 6-8.

Two on the ground, to deal with the pit and poke at the patron with polearms (do small polearms have reach?). Then I figured on at least 4 more in the trees to provide covering fire.

Now the pit is not a threat to the PCs themselves. It is a plot device to stop the PCs so I can ambush them.

BTW this is the second encounter in the adventure. The first is against goblins, and sort of a nod to Burnt Offerings. So by the time they are done with this encounter they will HATE goblins and kobolds. I hope.

That's awfully hard to answer without knowing your players, their characters, and their experience level. Honestly. I have really experienced players, and I always have to add an extra enemy or two.

Additionally, there is 'fight to the death', 'fight until fearless leader falls down and goes squish', and 'fight until we get scaredy'.

If it's 'fight until we get scaredy' then 8 is a probably a nice round number. But after 2-3 die, they rest scamper away.

If it's 'fight until fearless leader goes squishy' then you should make one of them the obvious leader, give him slightly better condition equipment (IE: not rusty/dented). Then 6 to 8 is ok.

If it's 'Fight until death' then 4 is about right.

Again, you'll need to modify it. For example, if you have 5 players, you need more monsters. If you have a party of a fighter, a barbarian, a rogue, and a sorcerer then maybe you need another pair, since you have 2 heavy melee's, one sneak, and one caster.

Grand Lodge

mdt wrote:
Krome wrote:

Quick question again... According to Beta, 4 kobolds would be worth XP for a level one encounter.

Is 4 enough? I was thinking around 6-8.

Two on the ground, to deal with the pit and poke at the patron with polearms (do small polearms have reach?). Then I figured on at least 4 more in the trees to provide covering fire.

Now the pit is not a threat to the PCs themselves. It is a plot device to stop the PCs so I can ambush them.

BTW this is the second encounter in the adventure. The first is against goblins, and sort of a nod to Burnt Offerings. So by the time they are done with this encounter they will HATE goblins and kobolds. I hope.

That's awfully hard to answer without knowing your players, their characters, and their experience level. Honestly. I have really experienced players, and I always have to add an extra enemy or two.

Additionally, there is 'fight to the death', 'fight until fearless leader falls down and goes squish', and 'fight until we get scaredy'.

If it's 'fight until we get scaredy' then 8 is a probably a nice round number. But after 2-3 die, they rest scamper away.

If it's 'fight until fearless leader goes squishy' then you should make one of them the obvious leader, give him slightly better condition equipment (IE: not rusty/dented). Then 6 to 8 is ok.

If it's 'Fight until death' then 4 is about right.

Again, you'll need to modify it. For example, if you have 5 players, you need more monsters. If you have a party of a fighter, a barbarian, a rogue, and a sorcerer then maybe you need another pair, since you have 2 heavy melee's, one sneak, and one caster.

I think fight till scaredy sounds about right. lol These guys aren't under the control of some uber bad guy. They just want dinner.

So I think I might go with about 8, figuring on a fight lasting only 2ish rounds before the kobolds start to flee. After all, they can come back later and carve up the horse after the oomans are gone.

This gives me two-ish rounds of some 6 crossbowbolds pot shooting the PCs. The two on the ground are surely dead kobolds real fast, and signal their deaths will signal the start of the retreat. 12ish chances (if I am lucky) to hit 1st level PCs with crossbows... yummy! lol

I am really starting to like this encounter a LOT! lol


I really only have one small thing to add to this discussion, and its more of a caution than a brilliant bit of trapsmithing:

Good for goose, good for gander.

Before you implement this, you need to decide if you are comfortable with taking 20 on stealth. Because the PCs could do it too. Or more dastardly villians could. An assasin who hides himself in the PCs bedroom could take 20 to hide himself if he has a few minutes. The PCs could set up ambushes that many "decently perceptive" monsters will fall into. A canny fighter with decent dexterity could still get high teens, if not into the 20s with his stealth check, even in full plate. If the PCs are smart and put the worst hiders at the "back end" of the kill-box, with the rogues and monks out at the front, you might find a lot of ambushes coming your way from your PCs, and that they will be quite effective.

Personally, while I allow for taking 20 on stealth, I have a caveat: it requires another person to "spot" for you. You can't be fully sure of how well you are hidden, it takes another person telling you to pull your toes in or cover the ring on your finger to get that maximum possible result. I would technically require this for any opposed roll that someone was interested in taking 20 on.

Just something to consider.

Sovereign Court

When in "tactical" mode, with the battlemat unfurled, then yes, use the normal squareage by all means (medium 5 foot square, large 10 x 10, etc.)

When in overland movement or just walking around, then sure, you can have people occupy the same square (two medium walking abreast in a 5-foot wide corridor, or a line of horses on a 5-foot wide path, for example)

The RAW even mentions multiple creatures per square in non-tactical situations.

In the original example, as a DM, you can make a reasonable case that two horses side by side on a 10-foot wide road can fall in that pit. Then as soon as it happens, as you ask for initiative, everyone drawing steel and those still on horses (and not in a pit with horses) can rein their mounts in and go in fighting mode to threathen everything around a 10x10 area.

Also, remember that horses going from 5x10 to 10x10 is a huge advantage (assuming warhorses with 2 hooves and 1 bite attack) as they now (3.5/PRPG) threaten a 20x20 area instead of (3.0) a 15x20 area... useful if you actually use your mount for figthing purposes (if it's a large lion, like my drd8/ftr1's animal companion, then that's even better news... anything that can allow a larger threaten area for that lion's full attack is A-OK to me!)


The issue we ran into in play with a large party (7ish?) of mounted combatants was that the battle mat would simply be too crowded unless the field was totally open. Even battles in a good sized keep (100 x 200) with few obstacles got very tough to manage especially if some or all of the opposition was mounted.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

When in "tactical" mode, with the battlemat unfurled, then yes, use the normal squareage by all means (medium 5 foot square, large 10 x 10, etc.)

When in overland movement or just walking around, then sure, you can have people occupy the same square (two medium walking abreast in a 5-foot wide corridor, or a line of horses on a 5-foot wide path, for example)

The RAW even mentions multiple creatures per square in non-tactical situations.

In the original example, as a DM, you can make a reasonable case that two horses side by side on a 10-foot wide road can fall in that pit. Then as soon as it happens, as you ask for initiative, everyone drawing steel and those still on horses (and not in a pit with horses) can rein their mounts in and go in fighting mode to threathen everything around a 10x10 area.

Also, remember that horses going from 5x10 to 10x10 is a huge advantage (assuming warhorses with 2 hooves and 1 bite attack) as they now (3.5/PRPG) threaten a 20x20 area instead of (3.0) a 15x20 area... useful if you actually use your mount for figthing purposes (if it's a large lion, like my drd8/ftr1's animal companion, then that's even better news... anything that can allow a larger threaten area for that lion's full attack is A-OK to me!)


Bitter Thorn wrote:
The issue we ran into in play with a large party (7ish?) of mounted combatants was that the battle mat would simply be too crowded unless the field was totally open. Even battles in a good sized keep (100 x 200) with few obstacles got very tough to manage especially if some or all of the opposition was mounted.

Well, the simple answer is, that kind of stuff is best left to video games and Hollywood.

Realistically, mounted combatants didn't stand still. They didn't fight in brawls or melees. They didn't hold their ground and trade blows with footmen.

No, they used their horse for mobility. They maintained speed, charged through or over or along the flank of their enemy, trampling and slashing and lancing as they rode through/by, and then when they were past the enemy, they "wheeled about" and charged again.

If a cavalry (singular or plural) ever found himself embroiled in trading blows while their horses were effectively standing still, the first thing they would do is look to break free, gain some distance, wheel about and lay down another charge.

The concept of riding a group of mounted horsemen into a keep and then fighting in that obstacle-strewn, enemy-rich, mobility-deprived environment is anathema to any realistic cavalryman's training or experience.

Far better to dismount the horses near the keep then enter the keep on foot, leaving the horses behind for the getaway after the mission is complete.


Bitter Thorn wrote:

The issue we ran into in play with a large party (7ish?) of mounted combatants was that the battle mat would simply be too crowded unless the field was totally open. Even battles in a good sized keep (100 x 200) with few obstacles got very tough to manage especially if some or all of the opposition was mounted.

Well,

that's realistic, if you stop to think about it. Imagine you've got a 100 foot square, and 10 mounted riders in that location. It's going to get complicated to have them rushing around and trying to fight each other.
I've seen horses back up, crab walk (walk sideways), whirl and bite, whirl and kick, and do so like snakes striking.

In ye olden dayes, cavalry battles happened in big open fields for a reason. A handful of horses in a keep's central yard is a recipe for horsie pincushions and butchering on the hoof.


Continuing in the vein of D&D horses, I have to say, both as a DM and as a player, I hate horses in D&D.

In real earth, right up to the invention and mass production of the automobile, horses (or similar animals, like camels) were the only means people had for transportation faster than walking.

In real earth, a person could easily and safely ride their horse to the next village and trade goods in that village market, then ride home. The only threat would be bandits, and that threat is more easily resolved mounted than afoot anyway.

But in D&D, horses are a liability.

Can the average adventurer fight from the back of an average horse?

No and no. The horse isn't trained for it, and the adventurer must devote feats to be able to control a horse in combat, fight while mounted, cast spells while mounted, etc.

Those feats don't do him much good in a dungeon, or in a castle, or in a wizard's tower, or at sea, or roaming the plane of fire, etc.

So should an adventurer waste feats so he can win a few mounted encounters when 90% of the encounters he will face, over his career, will be afoot?

Not likely.

So most adventurers don't have these feats, and so most adventurers can't really fight from the back of a horse.

Further, it's hard to imagine an ankheg, or a griffon, or a purple worm, or just about any other large unintelligent carnivore preferring a person over a horse.

So horses die.

A few encounters down the road, and half the adventuring party is walking afoot anyway.

So as a player, I dislike spending precious feats on a combat style I will hardly ever use, so I don't. I also dislike paying for monster food, even if I can ride that monster food halfway to the next town.

Sure, when we're traveling a relatively well-patroled road from village a to village b, I'll gladly ride rather than walk. Might even get there faster, if we don't lose too many horses to random encounters.

And heck, every round that the griffon is eating my horse is a round that it isn't eating me.

As a DM, I hate do deal with horses. Make the monsters eat the horses, make the horses run away, make the players make ride checks to control their horses, make them make REF checks to land on their feet when they're thrown from the panicked horses, spend game time roleplaying the "round-up" period after the encounter while the PCs go looking for the fled horses.

Bah!

Easier for me if the people in town won't sell their beloved horses to reckless adventurers - those townsfolk know what happens to adventurers' horses, no way Dear Old Betsy's going to suffer that fate...

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