Cheliaxian society and devils.


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I was pondering a campaign involving Cheliax, specifically the border between Cheliax and Andoran. I think the potential for conflict there has great potential...but along the way I started to ponder what sort of changes devils might make to human society.

Back to the books I went. I pulled my copy of Fiendish Codex II off the shelves. While plenty of detail was there concerning the politics of Hell, I found the details on infernally influenced realms to be somewhat lacking.

So I started to speculate. As hinted at in the codex, devils would start to shape mortal realms to reflect the philosophy of Hell itself - unbending, inflexible rule of of Law and Evil (in that order).

With that in mind, i'm wondering about the details of just how the infernals might warp an entire society towards their ideal lawful and evil society.

I guess the most obvious place to start would be with schools. I'd imagine that one of the first things that infernals would do is to make education of the young to be a priority. reach mortal children before they can be 'corrupted' by good or chaos. set up a system that teaches and rewards kids when they commit acts of lawful evil intent. something like hogwarts, only warped and very abusive. A system of snitches, encourage upper classmen to abuse younger students. plus you can educate your human workers to be useful in maintaining the nuts and bolts of your new society.

Aside from a system of 'elite' schools, I was thinking that the next obvious choice would be to encourage a strong legal system. you can manipulate society in all sorts of ways by passing laws to force changes in behavior. tax law, criminal code, contract law...even regulations on food prep and 'safety laws' could be used to make people used to restrictive intrusions into their personal lives. Then you encourage people to lobby for loopholes and make them commit minor acts of corruption and evil in order to obtain a dispensation from harsh and expensive laws.

hmm. I suppose there's also the matter of secret police to consider but again, that's fairly obvious. I'd imagine Cheliax to be a place where people have traded freedom for safety. where their basic needs are met, but they are always watched over, spied upon, regulated, taxed, numbered and stamped. A place where they can only get a break from the stifling and oppressive rules by selling a tiny bit of their soul...and just when they're getting used to that breath of fresh air - the door slams shut and the devils clamp the chains back on their feet.

Random thoughts:

fashion - uniform, bland, rigid and unimaginative. functional over flashy.

Food - basic nutritional needs met, spices heavily taxed and regulated.

Basic necessities of life would be subjected to engineered shortages, black market in luxury goods and items would be tightly controlled.

Art - propaganda, religious instruction...art for the sake of art would be an alien concept...and maybe driven underground. artists as rebels?

Anyways, that's just my rantings on the subject. insomnia is a terrible thing! any suggestions or comments?


Some ideas ... Just create a magical analogue to what's technologically possible today.


For historical examples, you could use Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and Rome.

George Orwell's '1984' is a good literary reference for this manner of police state. Elements of Ray Bradbury's 'Fahrenheit 451' might work as well.

The film 'V for Vendetta' depicts a society under fascist rule, including how such a regieme could come into place.

Obviously, none of these are fantasy examples, but they do give a look into the sort of mindset a devil-run society might create.


1984 and V both focus on controlling information. I think Cheliax has printing presses, so you are going to want a strong government controlled press in order to control what people believe.

You want an enemy. People are usually more willing to give up freedoms if they think that it makes them safer. So what is the threat to Cheliax that Law protects them from?

Magical police forces should randomly clairaudience/clairvoyance homes in order to know what is going on inside.

People should have documentation that says who they are, what they do, and where they belong. Record keeping would be very important. I think Kobold Quarterly had some sort of record keeping devils or a least the head of them or something.

Devils who enforce oaths would be useful, making sure contracts are honored. I'm working on something like this for Hellknights.

Contributor

M. Balmer wrote:

For historical examples, you could use Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and Rome.

I don't see how Rome belongs in that mix. The Romans were very unintrusive with their subjects' personal lives, as long as the people paid their taxes (and after Rome became an empire, worshiped the emperor along with whatever indigenous gods they may have had).


Hank Woon wrote:
M. Balmer wrote:

For historical examples, you could use Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and Rome.

I don't see how Rome belongs in that mix. The Romans were very unintrusive with their subjects' personal lives, as long as the people paid their taxes (and after Rome became an empire, worshiped the emperor along with whatever indigenous gods they may have had).

I was thinking of the gladiatoral games, used as a means to sway public opinion, of the heavy-handedness of the Pax Romana. The treatment Spartacus and his followers received would be a good example.

Also, Rome used xenophobia as a means to justify its expansion, in order to protect its citizens, and civilize these poor, barbaric neighbours, of course.

Not every aspect of Roman life would equate to a Lawful Evil society, but some translate quite nicely, I feel.

Contributor

M. Balmer wrote:


I was thinking of the gladiatoral games, used as a means to sway public opinion, of the heavy-handedness of the Pax Romana. The treatment Spartacus and his followers received would be a good example.

Also, Rome used xenophobia as a means to justify its expansion, in order to protect its citizens, and civilize these poor, barbaric neighbours, of course.

Not every aspect of Roman life would equate to a Lawful Evil society, but some translate quite nicely, I feel.

I guess, but it still falls a bit short of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, imo. After all, the citizens *wanted* gladiator shows, it wasn't like they were being subtly manipulated by senatorial hopefuls. It was expected for a candidate to put on a good show in order to secure votes (and bribing citizens for votes was not only legal, but expected as well); Spartacus died in battle after his men refused to leave the peninsula for Gaul when they could have, because they preferred to stay and loot and pillage (maybe Crassus took it a bit far by crucifying 6,000 of his men, but still); and using defense as a pretext for offense? Now what other nation has used that throughout history... and also led a genocidal campaign against indigenous natives...no need to single Rome out with that one. ;)

I think for the more permeated "evilness" that the OP is looking for (judging by his examples), the other historical examples on that list just *fit* a little better, at least to me.


Hank Woon wrote:

I think for the more permeated "evilness" that the OP is looking for (judging by his examples), the other historical examples on that list just *fit* a little better, at least to me.

Yes, I was looking for ways to drive home to players just how pervasive and opressive Cheliaxian society would be to outsiders. The earlier comment about the constant need for vigilance against 'the enemy' is a good example of what I was looking for - constant propaganda and agitation against 'the bad guys' would be a good way to drive home my point.

I would imagine that Cheliax would have a dim view of Andoran society. I could see them constantly denigrating their 'rebel children', playing up the chaos and lawlessness decadence of Andoran society. then pointing out how Cheliaxian virtues and dedication to the 'rule of law' make them 'superior' to their enemy.

I'd also imagine boarding schools (or just the education system in general) would instill the virtues of obedience and discipline into children as well. And on the surface, it might not even seem so bad. At least at first.

I also like the idea of identification papers being needed everywhere. I think i'm going to steal that idea for my campaign needs. so adventurers would need to either forge thier papers, steal them or actually get them legally somehow. hmm. that could be a good start right there.

Dark Archive

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Stealing from the inspirations mentioned upthread (Soviet Russia, Hitler's Germany and Imperial Rome), I would have Cheliax be a site of magnificent and awe-inspiring spectacles, to show off the power (particularly the military power) of the Chelaxian state. Parades of soldiers moving in perfect unison, performing weapons drills, in shining oiled steel and bright red silk and dyed leather dress uniforms would be led by fire-dancers, athletic members of the lower castes who function only as entertainers, performing risky and thrilling acts of acrobatics and fire-eating. Slaves chosen for their imposing appearance would carry litters, on which members of the Asmodean clergy would be ferried along, the heads of their ceremonial maces adorned with silvery tracery lit by ruddy Continual Flame, and worked into the shape of pentacles.

Where a military parade of this sort in Soviet Russia would include tanks, instead would proudly walk Bone, Horned and Ice Devils (chosen for their imposing size), and perhaps something more exotic, such as a brace of Chain Devils riding Hellcats, sweeping their menacing gaze from side to side at the cheering Chelaxians, playing the part of fearsome protector of the state and living weaponry of war, soaking up the fearful acclaim of these mortal servants of Asmodeus.

(And accepting that this is their task on Golarion, to make the mortal fools *relish* the sight of devils walking among them, so as to prepare them as a culture for the days to come, when they will be taking orders from devils...)

Ceremonial days might have other displays, perhaps 'fireworks displays' of magical might, with Chelaxian pyromancers and fire-priests sending fireballs into the night sky to blast apart spectral images of Chelaxian foes, or scheduled 'days of execution,' in which heretics and traitors and spies from other lands (who may or may not be anything of the sort) are executed by fire, and any Chelaxian citizen can spend a gold coin at the fair to have a chance to fire a heavy crossbow at a condemned prisoner. A small coin allows one to fire blunt-tipped arrows or throw stones at 'agitators' who have avoided a sentence of death, while wagers are intense on the more 'sporting games,' where a condemned man is given a blade and any young Chelaxian tough can 'prove his courage' and enter a ring and fight them to the death.

Various holy days might be specifically devoted to acts of discipline, such as a national Day of Silence, in which it is forbidden to speak aloud and all transactions must be done by paper, or a Day of Service during which all Chelaxian citizens are expected to show up for weapons training, clerical instruction or some other state-mandated education. (Similar to the Swiss requirement that all adults gather every year or so and re-qualify in marksmanship, as adults are expected to both own a gun and know how to use it.)


the last I want to see in Cheliax is kind of "Fantasy 3rd Reich". Just because the genre we play in is called "Fantasy" does not mean that everything can and should be made. Fascism is a child of the modern 19th and 20th century. It has no place in the D&D fantasy genre IMO.


Enpeze wrote:
the last I want to see in Cheliax is kind of "Fantasy 3rd Reich". Just because the genre we play in is called "Fantasy" does not mean that everything can and should be made. Fascism is a child of the modern 19th and 20th century. It has no place in the D&D fantasy genre IMO.

A valid point...but a society that's heavily (and directly) influenced by the infernal realms is and should be alien and sinister indeed to my players. I want them to get the impression 'hey - this ain't right', and to really think about the effects of wide scale social engineering that's being done to the place.

Cheliax should be a different kind of campaign. it shouldn't be a simple 'see devil/bash devil' series of events. I want it to be more of a 'winning their hearts and minds' style of play.

Silver Crusade

tumbler wrote:

You want an enemy. People are usually more willing to give up freedoms if they think that it makes them safer. So what is the threat to Cheliax that Law protects them from?

A good question. I think one of Mr. Quick's replies is a good start: the authorities could always play up the Andorans as savage malcontents that could, any day now, invade Cheliax. Another possibilty is for the government to make Taldor still seem like a threat, thereby justifying even covert intervention.

BTW, I like your idea for the Hellknights and contracts. Infernal-related contracts should be the cornerstone of Cheliaxian law.

Sovereign Court

Mr. Quick wrote:

fashion - uniform, bland, rigid and unimaginative. functional over flashy.

Food - basic nutritional needs met, spices heavily taxed and regulated.

Basic necessities of life would be subjected to engineered shortages, black market in luxury goods and items would be tightly controlled.

Art - propaganda, religious instruction...art for the sake of art would be an alien concept...and maybe driven underground. artists as rebels?

The back-to-basics approach is only one approach.

Soviet Russia used to advertise itself to the west by emphasising the amount of classical music concerts their young were getting to attend.

I imagine a lawful society would be very clear about what was canon and what was dross.

But there could be classical concerts in parks, ballet on special days, traditional high cuisine, traditional hats, etc etc.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Mr. Quick wrote:

fashion - uniform, bland, rigid and unimaginative. functional over flashy.

Food - basic nutritional needs met, spices heavily taxed and regulated.

Basic necessities of life would be subjected to engineered shortages, black market in luxury goods and items would be tightly controlled.

Art - propaganda, religious instruction...art for the sake of art would be an alien concept...and maybe driven underground. artists as rebels?

The back-to-basics approach is only one approach.

Soviet Russia used to advertise itself to the west by emphasising the amount of classical music concerts their young were getting to attend.

I imagine a lawful society would be very clear about what was canon and what was dross.

But there could be classical concerts in parks, ballet on special days, traditional high cuisine, traditional hats, etc etc.

Cheliax is heart of the opera, and they consider themselves cultured and advanced as a society. Its an old empire, their pride could also be being preyed upon by the devils, they want to believe the best of cheliax and the worst of its enemies.


Mr. Quick wrote:
Enpeze wrote:
the last I want to see in Cheliax is kind of "Fantasy 3rd Reich". Just because the genre we play in is called "Fantasy" does not mean that everything can and should be made. Fascism is a child of the modern 19th and 20th century. It has no place in the D&D fantasy genre IMO.

A valid point...but a society that's heavily (and directly) influenced by the infernal realms is and should be alien and sinister indeed to my players. I want them to get the impression 'hey - this ain't right', and to really think about the effects of wide scale social engineering that's being done to the place.

Cheliax should be a different kind of campaign. it shouldn't be a simple 'see devil/bash devil' series of events. I want it to be more of a 'winning their hearts and minds' style of play.

No problem with introduction of 20th century slogans and social thought patterns if this is your personal idea how to run cheliax. (as long as it is not in the official Cheliax companion) :)

I for my part would introduce other rather non-modern topics in cheliax to create the impression of "hey-this aint right", but YMMV.


Enpeze wrote:

No problem with introduction of 20th century slogans and social thought patterns if this is your personal idea how to run cheliax. (as long as it is not in the official Cheliax companion) :)

I for my part would introduce other rather non-modern topics in cheliax to create the impression of "hey-this aint right", but YMMV.

sadly, most of these concepts are by no means 'modern'. you can find examples of authoritarian government and unfair laws all down throughout human history. It even transcends cultural boundaries.


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Cheliax needs a strong tradition of opera. I think someone mentioned this earlier. In Italian opera you have lots of cool stories and names, including a soprano named Faustina Bordoni. Can't get much more devilish than that.


tumbler wrote:
Cheliax needs a strong tradition of opera. I think someone mentioned this earlier. In Italian opera you have lots of cool stories and names, including a soprano named Faustina Bordoni. Can't get much more devilish than that.

This I call a good idea! Opera Diaboli. :)

Dark Archive

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tumbler wrote:
You want an enemy. People are usually more willing to give up freedoms if they think that it makes them safer. So what is the threat to Cheliax that Law protects them from?

Galt needs to be the example of where Andora's 'ill-advised experiment' would 'obviously lead' to any right-thinking Chelaxian. Each Chelaxian would be admonished to look at each article of clothing, each fine meal, and the roof over their heads as a priviledge only held thanks to the rule of law, as dirty filthy undeserving peasants, bloodsucking leeches on the underside of society, would tear them out of their fine homes and march them straight to the guillotine, if it weren't for the strong hand of monarchy to keep the lazy good-for-nothings in their place!

Indeed, it would be in the best interests of Cheliax not only to 'play up' the unrest in Galt, but to actively send the occasional agent provocateur to 'stir things up' and provide exciting new stories of hard-working honest folk being dragged from their homes by lawless mobs and stripped of their estates and holdings. Finding any even remotely connectible situation in Andoran news would be a treasure trove, bleated and gossiped about endlessly, as 'proof' that the unworthy will always rise up and try to take more than they deserve from their betters, if not kept in their place with a strict and firm hand. Even if that 'Andoran situation' has to be completely made up, or blown so far away from what actually happened, it would serve as fodder to talk up the importance of a strong central governing authority and harsh (strict but fair!) laws to prevent that sort of 'lawless brigandry' from coming to Cheliax.

Example: Somewhere in Andora, a robber-baron is found to have gained a monopoly on the local goods, and is charging his serfs as much or more than they make in a year on basic necessities, keeping them in perpetual wage-slavery. Heroes, probably with connections to the clergy of Cayden Cailean, would overthrow this brute, and his lands would be parceled out to his former serfs, but in Cheliaxian gossip, the tale would focus on how the baron was a member of an old-blood noble family, beggared by ridiculous Andoran sumptuary laws to 'punish the rich' and 'redistribute wealth,' was driven out of his ancestral home and put on some mock trial by the unruly peasants! They would shudder, expensive pastries gripped in silk napkins, so as not to get crumbs on their exquisitely manicured nails, and images of the rude barbarians coming and dragging them out of their fine homes and estates would be seared into their minds.

Even the families who aren't in any way connected to noble houses, simple farmers, would be assured that the dirty 'freedom fighters' would seize their harvests and redistribute their cattle to make sure that 'everybody got their fair share,' caring nothing for how the farmer would then be unable to feed and provide for his own family.

And so the average Chelaxian, even one who didn't have a lot of money or a noble bloodline or a fancy estate, would be inculcated with a deep-rooted fear that shiftless layabouts would come flying flags of 'freedom' to take what little they did have and leave them penniless.

By playing on these fears, the Chelaxian authorities could do the same thing that Hitler did 70-ish years ago, convincing the German people that the Jews were parasites, taking and taking from the German economy, but never giving back, and stirring up a sense of injustice and unfairness in the economic situation. By giving the people someone to blame for the financial woes of the times, Hitler made a race of people into a scapegoat, onto with the evils of the times were placed, so that the scapegoat could be driven off (or sacrificed), symbolically ridding the country of all things bad and giving them the sense that they weren't powerless, forced to sit around and watch their country fall apart, that they could *do something* to make things better, even if the thing they were being encouraged to do was monstrous and entirely unrelated to their financial situation.

The Chelaxians wouldn't necessarily pick a specific race of people, but would assign blame to a political philosophy, that embraced by neighboring Andoran, and make that the 'scapegoat' for all the evils that beset the world. The firm hand of monarchy and harsh, even draconian, laws, would be seen as the only protection from the sorts of horrors that have befallen places like Galt, the River Kingdoms, etc. Taldan would be decried as being only a step away from falling apart as well, slipping ever further into decadent irrelevance (any intimation that Cheliax is on that road as well would be met with scorn and disbelief!). And Chelaxian talking heads would wring their hands in mock regret that Andoran is setting itself down this road to ruin...

The egalitarian philosophy of the Andorans would be the very face of apocalypse, to a Chelaxian.


I wonder if Cheliaxian authorities have problems with people defecting to other countries? I would think that Cheliax has closed (or at least closely guarded) borders and a policy that prevented people from freely moving in and out of the country.

Dark Archive

Mr. Quick wrote:
I wonder if Cheliaxian authorities have problems with people defecting to other countries? I would think that Cheliax has closed (or at least closely guarded) borders and a policy that prevented people from freely moving in and out of the country.

Good thought! Most countries with propoganda machines pretty much have to keep their people from popping over to the evil infidels countries and find out that they aren't exactly falling apart due to lawlessness or immoral behavior.

Perhaps the average rank and file Chelaxian is 'strongly encouraged' to remain in the 'safety and security' of Cheliax (there might even be regular 'alerts' warning them that it's particularly unsafe in this country or that, due to overblown accounts of something that happened in some other country. Any monster attack or newsworthy crime would quickly get told and retold, as well as exagerrated shamelessly, as examples of how 'dangerous' the neigboring countries are!), while the people who do get permits to travel abroad are encouraged to associate with other Chelaxians as much as possible (for safety, they'd be told, but mainly so that they can report each other if they start to show signs of ideological impurity or sympathy for the heathen foreigners and their dangerous ways of thinking), and would have to fill out various paperwork that would subtly test their loyalty (or be the sorts of people who can bull through the bureacracy through social ranking and thus, the exact sorts of upper-class twists who would have the most to lose if Cheliax changed it's wicked ways and became more egalitarian!).

Those Chelaxians who live on the borders would occasionally shake their heads at the crazy exagerrations coming from further in-country, knowing that, yes, that breathlessly reported crime / monster attack / whatever did happen, but it was only a single person that was killed, not an entire family, and there wasn't a riot afterwards! Like most people who live on borders, they'd have occasional 'improper contact' with foreigners (and there would no doubt be the usual cross-border smuggling, etc.) but they'd still end up passing on rumors about crazy foreigners and their lawless ways, which would get passed up the rumor tree, growing wilder with each retelling.


See when I think of a devil infested government. I tend to think of an episode of the X-Files and also Hot Fuzz.

I forget the name of the particular Episode but it was in Season 1 I believe. The towns school was lead by devil worshipers, but ont he outside it looked perfectly fine. Students were well taken care of and looked after. They participated in some rituals but their memories were supressed so that they wouldnt remember anything that they found disturbing. It wasn't until the evil spirit became upset about not getting its occasional sacrifice that things began to go awry. Even then only the main worshippers suffered.

From Hot Fuzz, it reminds me of the prestine village of sanford. Lovely and peaceful, but rotten to its very core. They projected a vision of perfection, by any means necessary. They watched their residents and any that did not fit that perfect image, were delt with quietly or met with an unfortunate accident.

Liberty's Edge

This is a good topic and interesting read. Allow me to add some thoughts:

First another good movie to watch (as well as V-For Vendetta) is Equilibrium (with Christian Bale). That is a great totalitarianism that bans art and emotional love etc as a way to keep people into subjugation.

Many comments on here link back to the Hitler-esqu propaganda that singles out a group to blame for the societies woes.

A good example of all of this can be found in the Paranoia game - where "commies" are the root of all evil, and the imagined threat that looms over the citizens in order to control their thoughts and actions. Such propoganda is rife in the game.

Furthermore, the society in that game have various levels of "Clearance" where as one must have obtained this level to lawfully be allowing to know certain things, or go certain places. I imagine such a diabolic society in Cheliax would have this sort of system - furthermore, it creates a desire to perform that which is mandated by the society to earn the priviledge of higher clearance. It is the carrot on the stick that the proverbial devil is hanging in front of the citizen.

In Ravenloft, the land of Falkovnia brandishes a scar on the foreheads of the lessers (of a hawk), this could be a good aspect in such a Cheliax to brandish those lesser, or those known to oppose as a means of deterrence.

Also, from Braveheart - the notion certain class of people being lawfully allowed to bed a newlywed of persons in the various provinces or colonies. Imagine Cheliax doing this to maintain their bloodlines in various colonies.

Other laws that could exist would be that the second born son must be part of the army, or the second born daughter must be given to a harem for the devils, this futher perpetuates fiendish blood within the bloodlines, and keeps their offspring as 'family' to reduce the amount of desire to be rid of them.

Also, another culture that comes to mind to draw inspiration from would be the ancient Egyptians and pharoahs. Their architecture also is the grand inspiring examples that were mentioned in a previous post that such a cheliax would want to grandstand such awe-inspiring architecture and wealth.

Robert

Silver Crusade

I definitely like Set's and Robert's recent ideas.

Sovereign Court

Just my 2cp here:

I would not have a suppression of arts per se, but only have "officially endorsed and funded" arts. This would give control of artistic vision under state control. This could encompass all realms of arts: painting, sculpture, literature, performance arts, etc. I especially like the opera concept ... very high brow in its nature, but have it some performances open to all levels of society to give them a sense of higher status. Perhaps some of these "official works" would be used as a means of surveillance as well; a statue is given as a gift to a Taldor noble and the devils of Cheliax could see and hear the events around the statue.

Uniforms and official regalia should not be bland. Dark shades indeed, but color used to distract the oppressive nature of the government would fit well, especially for any foreigners who come into the country.

A 'secret police' would be essential in order to ensure there are no opposition groups with any serious power. This group could be relatively small, not have any specific uniform, but its members would be infernally marked, visible only through specific means. They could run with 'citizen informants' who receive additional funds, goods, perhaps even a piece of their soul in return for incriminating information on their neighbors. The size of the organization would be the true secret; without knowing how many members and who they are, they could feasibly be anywhere.

Perhaps higher levels of goods and services to those citizens who are members of the official "party" or followers of the official "religion". Keeping those who tow the line living the good life, while those who do not are not as well off, but not struggling to survive (no reason to sow the seeds of discord, after all).

An alternate possibility would be that goods and services require not only a currency transaction, but a signed contract of sale, which could turn the citizens' souls into a secondary currency. This contract currency could have the potential to keep the population in place in the hopes they can reclaim the bits of their souls they used in trade.

One other thought for the currency. I would imagine the coin of the land would hold visages of the devils as well as the leaders. What about a coin that would double as a means of contract signing? It could have a small point with which one could, intentionally or inadvertently, pierce a finger to draw a drop of blood which would be absorbed by the coin. It would remove the need to sign a contract for a transaction and would serve the same purpose.

If anything else comes to mind, I'll post it.

Dark Archive

zylphryx wrote:
A 'secret police' would be essential in order to ensure there are no opposition groups with any serious power. This group could be relatively small, not have any specific uniform, but its members would be infernally marked, visible only through specific means. They could run with 'citizen informants' who receive additional funds, goods, perhaps even a piece of their soul in return for incriminating information on their neighbors. The size of the organization would be the true secret; without knowing how many members and who they are, they could feasibly be anywhere.

And the bestest-ever 'secret police' are the citizens themselves. Just make sure that little Johnny knows from his lessons that he will be rewarded very handsomely by powerful people and have all the candy he can eat if he just makes sure to narc on mommy and her basement prayer meetings to Sarenrae... While another classic scene from 1984 (and also touched on in Equilibrium, where the son seems ready to turn his father in for impropriety, just as his father turned his wife, the boy's mother, in), it's also been in the news more recently, as some Sunni happily turned over their Shia neighbors for a fat $10,000 US reward, saying that, "Yes, indeed, they were definitely members of Al-Qaeda, officer!" before promptly looting and moving their extended families into the now-abandoned homes (a two-fer, from a financial standpoint, along with the happy coincidence of purging the Shia from their neighborhoods). As long as the average Chelaxian has a sound financial reason to rat out one another, they'll happily turn on each other like trapped rats. The only problem that the secret police will have is keeping up with the tiresome task of verifying the guilt of all of the accused! (Although, after a few spectacular show trials of whistleblowers who made up false claims, or committed the even more grievous error of making up true claims about someone more politically connected than they had thought, few will be brave enough to 'game the system' to get rid of annoying neighbors or inconvenient relatives.)

It reminds me of those union rules where a union member can get a financial reward by snitching on another for breaking some rule (by filing a grievance on someone working outside of their craft or whatever), encouraging them to constantly monitor each other like built-in secret police, hoping for a free check.

Rules and laws specifically designed to make the people into their own secret police, into their own willing and eager oppressors, sound appropriately diabolic!

Dark Archive

Robert Brambley wrote:
In Ravenloft, the land of Falkovnia brandishes a scar on the foreheads of the lessers (of a hawk), this could be a good aspect in such a Cheliax to brandish those lesser, or those known to oppose as a means of deterrence.

A brand in the shape of the Asmodean pentacle might be placed on slaves, with different slave-owning families perhaps having their own subtle tweak on the design (canted slightly to the left, upside down, upside down and with the upthrust 'legs' curving like devils horns and the bottom 'tine' darkened like a beard, larger or smaller in size, fatter at the bottom / skinnier at the top, etc.). The different houses might also vary the placement of the brand, with some preferring the left shoulder, others the left cheek, some the forehead, etc. Alternately, the placement of the brand might determine something else, such as the nature of the offense that led to enslavement (willing - to pay off debts, might have it in a less painful / public area, prisoner of war might have it on a shoulder, slave by birth might have it on the left breast, etc.). Slaves would be required to dress in such a way that their tattoo is always visible, so one with a shoulder tattoo would always wear a shirt with no left sleeve, and one with a left breast tattoo would always wear a toga-like top that leaves the left side of the upper torso visible, to 'proudly display' their 'mark of service.'

Robert Brambley wrote:
Also, from Braveheart - the notion certain class of people being lawfully allowed to bed a newlywed of persons in the various provinces or colonies. Imagine Cheliax doing this to maintain their bloodlines in various colonies.

That might be over-the-top, although it's certainly a nasty sounding bit of business...


Robert Brambley wrote:
Also, from Braveheart - the notion certain class of people being lawfully allowed to bed a newlywed of persons in the various provinces or colonies. Imagine Cheliax doing this to maintain their bloodlines in various colonies.

Here's a link to that custom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_seigneur

Quite an interesting read. Another case of fiction being used as fact, and being accepted by the majority of the populace (I assumed it was real also, until doing a bit more research about it). Sounds like something that would come from the Ministry of Truth, doesn't it?

This has been a truly fascinating discussion, by the way. I'm going to adopt some of these thoughts into my Korvosa campaign.


I don't think the devils would bother trying to trick people into infernal contracts. Based on what I've read in the Codex, Devils would seem to favor setting up a society in such a way that society itself tends to generate lawful evil people. That's what should come across to adventures in Cheliax, at least in my opinion. The idea that the entire country is being turned into a machine designed to corrupt entire generations of people into the service of law and evil.

That's not the sort of evil you can stop by just banishing a few devils.

Liberty's Edge

Gr8old1 wrote:
Robert Brambley wrote:
Also, from Braveheart - the notion certain class of people being lawfully allowed to bed a newlywed of persons in the various provinces or colonies. Imagine Cheliax doing this to maintain their bloodlines in various colonies.

Here's a link to that custom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_seigneur

Quite an interesting read. Another case of fiction being used as fact, and being accepted by the majority of the populace (I assumed it was real also, until doing a bit more research about it). Sounds like something that would come from the Ministry of Truth, doesn't it?

This has been a truly fascinating discussion, by the way. I'm going to adopt some of these thoughts into my Korvosa campaign.

Aye. And for the record, I didn't comment on the veracity of the notion in the movie - just that it occured in that movie - which was not a completely accurate depiction of recorded history anyway - it was indeed "Hollywood-ized" But it was a fabulous movie in and of itself irrespective of it's adherence to historical fact (or lack thereof).

This has been a great discussion - and one can truly write a good supplement book on Cheliax with much of the ideas here......hint hint hint...nudge nudge wink wink......

Robert


I think I've definitely gotten enough ideas and information for my purposes. this thread has been very helpful indeed....everyone who contributed has given me something to ponder about how to use Cheliax in my campaign.

Dark Archive

Mr. Quick wrote:
I think I've definitely gotten enough ideas and information for my purposes. this thread has been very helpful indeed....everyone who contributed has given me something to ponder about how to use Cheliax in my campaign.

It's been a fun discussion, thanks for giving all of us something to ponder!

Liberty's Edge

For quirks of a lawful society, real-world Japan can be a great source of inspiration.

Basically, the system makes all things work smoothly and comfortably because the people put so much effort in fulfilling their role and responsibilities. Being reliable is the utmost virtue and peer-pressure is a mighty tool for inciting people to conform.

Of course, this entails that insiders are implicitely trusted while outsiders are implicitely distrusted.

This enables controlling the influence of foreign ideas by subjecting any citizen having heavy contact with the outside to a heavy and lengthy scrutiny from his peers until they are satisfied that said contact did not "contaminate" him and that he can still be relied upon to responsibly fill his appropriate role in society.


It's not quite that bad over here. Mostly they're just afraid/uncertain about things that don't fit in. You don't have to be foreign to wig them out. Try getting a Japanese friend to order something not on the menu in a restaurant and watch them flounder, saying, "No, that's not possible! Please read the menu!"

It's actually a lot of fun.

Liberty's Edge

Kuma wrote:

It's not quite that bad over here. Mostly they're just afraid/uncertain about things that don't fit in. You don't have to be foreign to wig them out. Try getting a Japanese friend to order something not on the menu in a restaurant and watch them flounder, saying, "No, that's not possible! Please read the menu!"

It's actually a lot of fun.

I'm sure why - but I really found a lot of humor in that! My imagination was running wild with what such a scene may look like.

Thanks for the chuckles.

Robert


Kuma wrote:

It's not quite that bad over here. Mostly they're just afraid/uncertain about things that don't fit in. You don't have to be foreign to wig them out. Try getting a Japanese friend to order something not on the menu in a restaurant and watch them flounder, saying, "No, that's not possible! Please read the menu!"

It's actually a lot of fun.

Boy, are you guys going to be in trouble once we manage to let the Maelstrom take over everything again!

Because when that happens, you will only be able to order stuff that is not on the menu! ;-P


KaeYoss wrote:
Kuma wrote:

It's not quite that bad over here. Mostly they're just afraid/uncertain about things that don't fit in. You don't have to be foreign to wig them out. Try getting a Japanese friend to order something not on the menu in a restaurant and watch them flounder, saying, "No, that's not possible! Please read the menu!"

It's actually a lot of fun.

Boy, are you guys going to be in trouble once we manage to let the Maelstrom take over everything again!

Because when that happens, you will only be able to order stuff that is not on the menu! ;-P

And the menu IS an irate crayfish! HAhaHAHahAHA!

Grand Lodge

Well, as my Osirion adventure is coming along nicely I have started brainstorming on my Chelaxian adventure and I must say this thread has helped a LOT!

Keep it going.


Enpeze wrote:
the last I want to see in Cheliax is kind of "Fantasy 3rd Reich". Just because the genre we play in is called "Fantasy" does not mean that everything can and should be made. Fascism is a child of the modern 19th and 20th century. It has no place in the D&D fantasy genre IMO.

My philosphy is a bit rusty, but didn't Plato outline - and promote - a fascist state in The Republic and the concept of the philospher-kings?

Grand Lodge

rugbyman wrote:
Enpeze wrote:
the last I want to see in Cheliax is kind of "Fantasy 3rd Reich". Just because the genre we play in is called "Fantasy" does not mean that everything can and should be made. Fascism is a child of the modern 19th and 20th century. It has no place in the D&D fantasy genre IMO.
My philosphy is a bit rusty, but didn't Plato outline - and promote - a fascist state in The Republic and the concept of the philospher-kings?

I thought he presented different forms of governments to show how they are all not really just at all. Of course that was read around 20 years ago, so memory is a BIIIIIIT fuzzy there.


Don't look at me, I'm always giving waitresses fits over the menu. It's a bit easier in fast food places, they're slightly more accustomed to changing stuff around.

Japan does tend to shut down when there's any possibility of chaos though. Schools in Kyoto shut down for the better part of a week because of a couple cases of swine flu... in Osaka. (about an hour away by train)

So in case of maelstrom, someone's probably going to break the emergency glass on a giant mecha and try to fight it off. There's a certain element of the culture here that feels the solution to any problem is giant robots.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Kuma wrote:
So in case of maelstrom, someone's probably going to break the emergency glass on a giant mecha and try to fight it off. There's a certain element of the culture here that feels the solution to any problem is giant robots.

Or throwing Catgirls at it and screaming loudly? ;-)

Edit: I just realized, hidden deep in Mt Fuji is a giant Mecha-catgirl with breast missiles that screams out its attacks as it fires.


Kuma wrote:


So in case of maelstrom, someone's probably going to break the emergency glass on a giant mecha and try to fight it off. There's a certain element of the culture here that feels the solution to any problem is giant robots.

"In case of maelstrom, break glass with this." (tied to a bazooka).

What use is a mecha if the fuel turns to lemon milk in its pipes? Plus, I've found that machines tend to depend a lot on a stable set of universal laws.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Kuma wrote:
So in case of maelstrom, someone's probably going to break the emergency glass on a giant mecha and try to fight it off. There's a certain element of the culture here that feels the solution to any problem is giant robots.

Or throwing Catgirls at it and screaming loudly? ;-)

Edit: I just realized, hidden deep in Mt Fuji is a giant Mecha-catgirl with breast missiles that screams out its attacks as it fires.

I like how your mind works.


I recommend an extremely rigid caste system upon which your entire social and political status depends. Upward movement through the cast system would be extremely difficult while downward movement would be extremely easy.

Be sure to include an outcast or untouchable caste at the bottom which they don't even acknowledge the existence of, but which everyone is terrified of becoming.

Also slave would be a valid rank, above outcast, since a slave has value.

You'd also need to figure out how foreigners fit into the system.

The caste system could affect all aspects of life. Different castes would have different rights (such as what property they can own, what laws apply to them, use and ownership of weapons, access to training and school, what they wear, the ability to own or practice magic, etc.). Some castes might dictate certain fashions so that they can be easily identified (especially the upper classes who expect obediance on sight, etc).

Just some thoughts.

Dark Archive

I was just reminded of the 'branding slaves' idea, and different slave owners having subtly different brands (always a pentacle, though!) or branding their slaves in different visible areas (left shoulder would be most common), and remembered that, in ancient Egypt, the slaves were all property of the temples. No one, not even Pharoah, was allowed to own a slave. The temples owned them, and everybody else just rented them from the temples for periods of time.

(Pharoah was 'gifted' with the use of slaves donated by from temples currying favor, all of whom were essentially spying on Pharoah 24/7 for their respective temples, and scheming against each other on behalf of their temples...)

To adopt this scheme to Cheliax, perhaps every slave in Cheliax is officially the property of the Church of Asmodeus, as only the Asmodean clergy can designate someone a slave (and since only the church can make a man a slave, the church retains contractual ownership of the slave it 'created,' in perpetuity). Everyone in Cheliax wants and / or needs slaves, but they have to rent them from the Church. *Nobody* 'donates' or 'tithes' to the Church of Asmodeus. Asmodeans scoff at the very idea of meekly handing over coin in the hopes of currying favor with the Lord of the Pit. The Church gains it's revenues from renting out the services of slaves, handling legalistic and contractual work, and, the old stand-by, seizing the lands and assets of those who have been 'found' to have been traitors and executed (if potentially problematic, such as members of old noble families with many sympathizers) and / or bound into slavery (everyone else in their house and family and employ).

Waste not, want not. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!

And so slaves would be underfoot, branded with the pentacle of Asmodeus, serving quietly and quickly, and the nobles who sneer at them and slap them out of the way would know that any one of those lowly toads would pass the word to their 'true owners' that the noble has said or done something that the Asmodean clergy would find *very* interesting indeed...

Only in Cheliax could a noble live in fear from his slaves, living like Pharoah, surrounded by luxury in a gilded cage, his house filled with those loyal to his enemies, a virtual prisoner (and, like Tutankhamen's father, guaranteed a cold death if he does something to displease the priesthood!).


wow - my discussion thread is still going on....cool!

Based on what I've read of the up and coming next adventure path, it looks like Cheliax still hasn't quite recovered from their civil war that happened after the death of Aroden.

Which means that there's quite an opportunity here to show players a contrast. Older buildings might not have been repaired, unless they were important in some way to the government. Newer buildings built specifically for various purposes (temples to Asmodeus, law courts, opera houses) designed along the lines of a new aesthetic. The older, crumbling buildings next to the gleaming and clean cut lines of the newer facilities.

Just a random thought.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I'd adopted the 'church owns all the slaves' for my Orsion/Hamunaptra hybrid, but cultural blinders never took it out of the desert. Cool idea Set.

Liberty's Edge

Arne Schmidt wrote:


The caste system could affect all aspects of life. Different castes would have different rights (such as what property they can own, what laws apply to them, use and ownership of weapons, access to training and school, what they wear, the ability to own or practice magic, etc.). Some castes might dictate certain fashions so that they can be easily identified (especially the upper classes who expect obediance on sight, etc).

Just some thoughts.

Exactly. This goes back to my earlier comparison to the "COLOR CLEARANCE" of citizens in the Paranoia game. ('color' is to 'caste' in this instance). Since every type of equipment/product/services are relegated only to those of appropriate clearance, it's an incentive to elevate one's status (in Paranoia's case, by proving loyal to the computer - computer is to Church of Asmodeus) to have better access to the aspects found in that societ.

Robert

Liberty's Edge

Set wrote:


To adopt this scheme to Cheliax, perhaps every slave in Cheliax is officially the property of the Church of Asmodeus, ....

Wow, that is GREAT suggestions!!

Really helps develop Cheliax I think.

Robert

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