Legality of a 3E / 4E Hybrid


4th Edition


I have come to realize that, despite being fun to play, 4E is not exactly what I'm looking for in an RPG. I'm planning on picking up another RPG (probably Call of Cthulhu), but as I have a lot of time on my hands this summer I thought I'd start a little project.

While I'm not crazy about 4E's power system I do like a lot the game's underlying mechanics. I like having Fortitude, Reflex, and Will as saves. I like that a Bull Rush is a Strength check versus Fortitude. I like that characters don't have iterative attacks that encourage them to stand in place. I like that characters have many options that allow movement of themselves and enemies. I like ongoing damage, save ends effects, rituals, and spells that can be used per encounter in addition to the more power once daily spells.

At the same time, I hate how artificial and limiting the power system can be, especially for Martial characters. I hate powers that cram wildly disparate effects together, such as a sonic attack that lets allies in the area move. I hate powers like Positioning Strike that give you the power to control exactly how someone reacts to you pushing them. I hate powers that require me to perform mental gymnastics to justify how they work. I hate that powers that you wouldn't think would cause physical harm, such as illusion spells, deal damage.

Basically, I feel that 4E has wonderful mechanics, but that the game world is designed to fit those mechanics as opposed to the mechanics being intended to model the game world.

My idea is to take some of the 4E mechanics that I like and use them in a way more similar to 3E. There's a good chance that this project will fall apart and I'll just give up on it, and even if I did somehow finish it I definitely don't plan to ever sell copies of it. I would like to put in online in PDF format, though. The finished product, though being a fusion of both 3E and 4E, probably wouldn't be compatible with existing material from either system as I plan to mix in some of my own ideas as well.

So, could I get in hot water if I ever did finish my homebrew system and put it online?


considering the people who copied entire reams of powers out of various books only got a cease and decist order, your probably okay. Its not like your making money on it, or claiming to be an official product or anything like that. If they dont like it expect a C&D (in which case your still free to use your hybrid, just not distribute in public...).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm not sure of the legality of a hybrid, but I've thought of the same thing. I really like the unification of saves and AC from 4E and Saga edition. My guess is that this kind of hybrid would not be legal, as the GSL and OGL are exclusive. If it were to be published at all, it would have to be under both licenses, which is a no-no. I don't know how either license handles free, online, homebrew rules. I think Pathfinder's online license is pretty unique. But I'm no lawyer.


I'm not a lawyer and my statements are mostly guesswork from what I have seen and recall, so one would be wise to not take my statements as fact.

thefishcometh wrote:
My guess is that this kind of hybrid would not be legal, as the GSL and OGL are exclusive.

Last time I checked they had adjusted the GSL so it was possible to see both in the same product.

However, I do believe that the GSL is not really made with the intention of letting you make a new RPG and has very limited usefulness for someone attempting to do such, so I believe that going only with the OGL is what would be the best choice.

Hexmage1077 wrote:
While I'm not crazy about 4E's power system I do like a lot the game's underlying mechanics. I like having Fortitude, Reflex, and Will as saves. I like that a Bull Rush is a Strength check versus Fortitude. I like that characters don't have iterative attacks that encourage them to stand in place. I like that characters have many options that allow movement of themselves and enemies. I like ongoing damage, save ends effects, rituals, and spells that can be used per encounter in addition to the more power once daily spells.

I believe that you could easily do all of these things with no legal trouble (Still not a lawyer). Most of them have already have appeared in OGL products in some form (Like Incantations from Unearthed Arcana are much like Rituals; the bleed effect from PF RPG and the Critical Hit deck is easily ongoing damage [minus the save ends]).

Many of these are small adjustments that I don't believe that one could make an argument that one could not legally use them. If one were to start copying powers from books, then there would be some more significant issues.

Dark Archive

Hexmage1077 wrote:


My idea is to take some of the 4E mechanics that I like and use them in a way more similar to 3E.

Necromancer Games is working on something similar.


Take a look at Pathfinder RPG (either the Beta or the final version when it's released in August) and see if it doesn't address some concerns you have about 3e (they're certainly aware of 3e's bigger problems, and as rumour has it, some, if not all, of them will be fixed in the final game).

Other than that, I don't know how rabid wizards will be about stuff like that, but I do think they had some pages with free, useful 4e stuff shut down before, so it's quite possible that your project will be shot down as soon as they learn about it.

I don't think they will sue you over it, though.


joela wrote:
Hexmage1077 wrote:


My idea is to take some of the 4E mechanics that I like and use them in a way more similar to 3E.
Necromancer Games is working on something similar.

Interesting. So, basically, they try to bring the 4e rules in line with the flavour we've come to know from D&D, change the rules to fit the world?

That might have gotten me interested in 4e after all.


It's also important to remember that rules mechanics can not be copyrighted. What is protected by copyright are the specific explanation/publication of those rules.

You can integrate mechanics from 100 different games if you want. You just get into trouble when you start use trade marked terms like Dungeons & Dragons.


Hiya

frozenwastes wrote:

You can integrate mechanics from 100 different games if you want. You just get into trouble when you start use trade marked terms like Dungeons & Dragons.

Not *entierly* true. It's when a "reasonable consumer of the product" can get confused and think that your product is produced by the owners of the TM and not by you. So if you have the same 'layout', art style, typeset, etc. as WotC's 4e products and you plaster Dungeons & Dragons on the cover in prominant lettering...that's gonna get you into trouble. If you have a different look, style, etc., and only put a little blurb "(compatible with D&D [D&D is a registered tm of Wizards of the Coast and is used WITHOUT permission])" at the bottom corner...you're good to go.

...of course, this also only applies if you DO NOT include/agree to the OGL and/or GSL... if you include/agree to those, well, they determine your rights as opposed to the actual law. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming


Hexmage1077 wrote:

I have come to realize that, despite being fun to play, 4E is not exactly what I'm looking for in an RPG. I'm planning on picking up another RPG (probably Call of Cthulhu), but as I have a lot of time on my hands this summer I thought I'd start a little project.

While I'm not crazy about 4E's power system I do like a lot the game's underlying mechanics. I like having Fortitude, Reflex, and Will as saves. I like that a Bull Rush is a Strength check versus Fortitude. I like that characters don't have iterative attacks that encourage them to stand in place. I like that characters have many options that allow movement of themselves and enemies. I like ongoing damage, save ends effects, rituals, and spells that can be used per encounter in addition to the more power once daily spells.

At the same time, I hate how artificial and limiting the power system can be, especially for Martial characters. I hate powers that cram wildly disparate effects together, such as a sonic attack that lets allies in the area move. I hate powers like Positioning Strike that give you the power to control exactly how someone reacts to you pushing them. I hate powers that require me to perform mental gymnastics to justify how they work. I hate that powers that you wouldn't think would cause physical harm, such as illusion spells, deal damage.

Basically, I feel that 4E has wonderful mechanics, but that the game world is designed to fit those mechanics as opposed to the mechanics being intended to model the game world.

My idea is to take some of the 4E mechanics that I like and use them in a way more similar to 3E. There's a good chance that this project will fall apart and I'll just give up on it, and even if I did somehow finish it I definitely don't plan to ever sell copies of it. I would like to put in online in PDF format, though. The finished product, though being a fusion of both 3E and 4E, probably wouldn't be compatible with existing material from either system as I plan to mix in some of my own ideas as well.

So, could...

I am very interested, maybe try putting on SCRIBD.COM.

I have STARWARS SAGA Edition which uses the same basic system and I like it and was even trying to investigate the same basic idea. I personally like the Powers System but was interested in a much more open system for characters.


There's is already a wholly OGL D&D 3.5/Star Wars Saga Edition hybrid called Fantasy Concepts by Jason Kemp. Many of the changes are referenced to rules in Unearthed Arcana or the Modern SRD.

So it appears to me that you might be extrapolate an OGL 3.5/4e hybrid using Fantasy Concepts. The main sticking point appears to be the at will/encounter/daily powers system which was introduced in late 3.5 products like Book of Nine Swords that were not open. However, if you don't like 4e powers then that's not a problem.

You also have OGL products like Book of Experimental Might which has a new spell progression system over 20 levels and Iron Heroes which attempts to redefine the martial classes to stack up with the magical classes.

Jim.


yojimbouk wrote:

There's is already a wholly OGL D&D 3.5/Star Wars Saga Edition hybrid called Fantasy Concepts by Jason Kemp. Many of the changes are referenced to rules in Unearthed Arcana or the Modern SRD.

So it appears to me that you might be extrapolate an OGL 3.5/4e hybrid using Fantasy Concepts. The main sticking point appears to be the at will/encounter/daily powers system which was introduced in late 3.5 products like Book of Nine Swords that were not open. However, if you don't like 4e powers then that's not a problem.

You also have OGL products like Book of Experimental Might which has a new spell progression system over 20 levels and Iron Heroes which attempts to redefine the martial classes to stack up with the magical classes.

Jim.

The Fantasy Concepts is pretty damn good, I've bought the PDF and it's very good. May be needs some more work by the GM with creatures but the rest is very very good.

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