This is probably a noob question.
A rogue is investigating a corridor and is looking out for traps and is wary of danger. She suddenly triggers a hidden crossbow that shoots a poisoned arrow at her.
Is her AC against the crossbow bolt flat-footed?
I always run it as Flat-footed if they are unaware of the trap.
Anyone with uncanny dodge (such as rogues) gain the benefit that they cannot be flat-footed. IF there is a rogue that has chosen to give up uncanny dodge for some other ability then in your example he would still be flat footed if he was not aware of the trap.
The rogue in my group can detect traps just by being within 10feet of them. He has also given up uncanny dodge. In his case if he detects the trap when it goes off he is not flat footed. If he doesn't then he is flat footed.
- Gauss
Edit: Ninja'd by Axl.
As Gauss I'd say if someone knows the trap is there it's normal AC.
For example it is a trap that is not used up by being triggered, if the first one who goes along the corridor is hit by an arrow coming from the wall, the rest of the party should not be flatfooted by the same trap.
Or if someone detects the trap with a spell.
But normal would be flatfooted.
When you're unconcious your Dex is considered 0
Edit: damn ninjas
Semi off-topic: it has never made sense to me why Reflex saves still allow Dex bonus when flat-footed.
Because a reflex save is all about your reflexes and quick muscular/bodily response to sudden incoming harm? Not to mention there's also a pure dumb luck component to the save.
It really is that simple, sorry if all of that sounded obvious.
This is probably a noob question.
A rogue is investigating a corridor and is looking out for traps and is wary of danger. She suddenly triggers a hidden crossbow that shoots a poisoned arrow at her.
Is her AC against the crossbow bolt flat-footed?
If you want to give the players a chance, you could have everyone roll initiative giving the trap a -5 (no Dex). Those who beat the trap have regular AC and those who lose have flat footed AC. This would be a house rule, but it could give everyone a chance at a better AC. Note that it may be unnecessary, most traps don't have that high of an attack bonus anyway.
You are looking for something to make sense in D&D/Pathfinder? Really?
Seriously though, it's a game that has only a fraction of 'real world' physics involved. Yes there is gravity, yes people breathe air, yes there is weather. Beyond that? Its a tossup.
Sometime in the distant past (13years ago or so) game designers said that loss of Dex applies to AC and not to reflex saves when flat-footed. Thus, that is the rule...even if it doesn't make 'real world' sense.
- Gauss
Semi off-topic: it has never made sense to me why Reflex saves still allow Dex bonus when flat-footed.
Because a reflex save is all about your reflexes and quick muscular/bodily response to sudden incoming harm? Not to mention there's also a pure dumb luck component to the save.
It really is that simple, sorry if all of that sounded obvious.
That makes no sense at all.
Why does AC include Dex bonus? Because quick muscular/bodily response to incoming harm helps to avoid the harm. When flat-footed, you lose that response to avoid harm.
The Dex bonus has absolutely no relevance to the "pure dumb luck component".
The game differentiates between dodging an attack and evading an explosion or falling meteor or the like. The "dodge" portion of AC is more about defending yourself and such things as fighting defensively and a defending weapon are lumped in with it. It just as much can involve redirecting the enemy's attack enough to twist your hips and avoid the blow as it can involve wholesale dodging the attack.
One requires your awareness to utilize. The other is purely about your ability to react despite any awareness or lack thereof.
Semi off-topic: it has never made sense to me why Reflex saves still allow Dex bonus when flat-footed.
Because a reflex save is all about your reflexes and quick muscular/bodily response to sudden incoming harm? Not to mention there's also a pure dumb luck component to the save.
It really is that simple, sorry if all of that sounded obvious.
That makes no sense at all.
Why does AC include Dex bonus? Because quick muscular/bodily response to incoming harm helps to avoid the harm. When flat-footed, you lose that response to avoid harm.
The Dex bonus has absolutely no relevance to the "pure dumb luck component".
The reason that reflex saves do not change when you are flat-footed is because that is how the rules are written.
If you want to house rule reflex saves to lose your dexterity modifier when you are flat-footed just make sure your players are aware.
I know this might sound snarky but I don't mean it in that way. It's just a matter of fact. Not everything in the rules is going to make sense when you think about it from a realistic point of view.
Maybe I'm resurrecting a dead horse here, but there actually is a logical difference between traps that make attacks and traps that require reflex saves. This difference goes a long way to explaining why the Dex bonus isn't lost on a reflex save.
Let's consider two distinct non-magical traps: a dart trap and a pit trap.
So Rick James the Bard is walking down a hallway. He's looking out for an ambush from ahead, so he fails to notice the small circular hole in the ceiling. When he steps on a cobble, the dart fires down at him. By the time he has any clue what's happening, he already has a dart sticking out of his shoulder. Lucky for him it missed his head.
Further down, Rick is looking very carefully at the ceiling above him, because he does not want to catch another dart. Too bad he isn't looking down as much, because there's a pretty obvious crevice along the center of the floor. He steps on another cobble, and the floor gives way. Surprised, he instinctively reaches out as his feet slide sideways, and just manages to grab the edge of the newly-revealed pit.
In the first case, once the trap is triggered, the target has no opportunity to react. In the second case, even though the trap has already triggered, the target becomes aware of a sudden change in his surroundings and still has a brief window in which to mitigate or avoid the trap's consequences.
Now let's backtrack, and send Nanoc the barbarian down the hallway. He's twitchy, as usual, but traps are the furthest thing from his mind. Like Rick, Nanoc steps on the cobble. Unlike Rick, Nanoc walks with his knees bent, always ready to spring. Even as the dart drops, he twists that slightest bit, causing the projectile to bounce off his armor.
Barbarians have the Uncanny Dodge class feature. While this doesn't improve their reactions, it does allow them to react to danger without warning.
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First, holy thread necro batman!
Second, let's take the pit trap and compare it to a fireball trap.
Rick James the bard has managed to slide his feet sideways, and grabs the edge of the newly revealed pit. He sighs with relief and continues on.
A few steps down the hall, he is assaulted with a violent burst of flame that appears instantaneously and immediately vanishes. Despite having literally no time to react, he manages to avoid much of the flame. Somehow.
Saves don't just represent reactions. They also represent a healthy chunk of luck. Against an instant effect, you've got no time to move. But you still get a reflex save without any penalties.