How to turn a PC into a [spoiler] from Pathfinder 19 "The Refuge of Nethys"?

[Elijah Snow]

I'm running a Pathfinder Beta game set in my original campaign setting. One of my PCs, a 3rd level half-orc druid, contacted lycanthropy from Haidar the Accursed's bite.

How do I go about adjucating this - I want the PC to become a standard wereleopard, but not a Katapehsi wereleopard.

These are my thoughts/questions:

Features that the PC would gain in all forms : +2 Wisdom, Iron Will, Scent, ability to commune with shared animal type (not sure if you want it restricted to leopards, or expanded to "big cats" (Tigers, Lions, Leopards, Jaguars)). I forget, off the top of my head, if the base animal's feats are available in all forms, or just hybrid an animal. In either case, those two for leopard are Weapon Finesse and Alertness (I don't know if that exists in Pathfinder - it was +2 Spot and Listen, so it's probably akin to Skill Focus : Perception). Features in animal and hybrid form: +6 Str, +8 Dex, +4 Con, DR 5/Silver, Natural attacks - 2 claws & 1 bite, the latter of which can transfer Curse of Lycanthropy. In animal form only - Pounce and Rend.

The main concern is how exactly he is going to be treated in terms of level/ECL. By all accounts, being an afflicted lycanthrope ascribes a +2 level adjustment, which, while acceptable, will devastate his usefulness as a druid for a while, possibly permanently. The stat increases and DR while in hybrid form are nice, and while I didn't see anything that implies that casting spells and communicating is impossible in hybrid form, I can understand that being implied/requiring a feat (like Natural Spell), so a level adjustment wouldn't be unfair - it would just make him another melee character... sometimes... if he makes the Control Shape check (which, unless I level and can take ranks in it, would be a DC 15 Wisdom check every time I think - about a 60% chance at current, assuming the +2 to Wisdom from lycanthropy), with a less-than-impressive BAB (albeit he'd do a lot of damage at 1d12 +10 on a hit with Overhand Chop with his greataxe) and mediocre AC and HP.

The other thing is I don't know if he would need, after the ECL, to take levels of Leopard as Natural lycanthropes do (which is why they're cruddy casters and rarely have class levels in anything divine or arcane). All of that would basically put him 4 levels behind such that at level 7 for the rest of the party, He would have 5 HD and 3 levels of druid still, have a terrible +3 BAB, and probably 30 HP including Toughness.

Any thoughts?

[Fuchs]

Get him cured instead?

[Lord Fyre]

B.T.W., this should have been spoilered ... and in the LoF thread.

[Helter Skelter]

Well I see two options. The first is to make him take the Leopard HD and the LA and then he just wont level up until the PCs catch up to his level in XP. The other option is to let him take the LA now, wait until the PCs catch up to him in level, then force him to take his animal HD for his next few levels after that. It would give him time to put ranks in Control Shape at least. XP debt seems inevitable.

Has he already transformed for the first time? If not you could possibly hint drop to have him more actively pursue a cure.

Alertness does exist in Pathfinder, it gives you a +2 to Perception and Search, IIRC.

[Corrosive Rabbit]

I had a character go through this in another campaign (cleric that contracted lycanthropy from a werewolf). The character was 4th level at the time, and the GM ruled that he received the template immediately after his first change, including two automatic animal levels. This bumped him to an 6th level character with a +2 LA (which was ok, as the rest of the group was a level higher, and he couldn't use most of the abilities that went with being a werewolf, due to the certainty of permanent alignment change).

A PrC was available that would allow the character to retain their alignment and shift, but the character would have needed an immense amount of experience to gain his next level - around 10,000 XP, if I remember correctly. Before he could get close, the character failed a Control Shape check and ended up being taken down by the party scout who had laid in a supply of silver arrows.

Honestly, having tried to deal with it in this other game, my advice is to either find a cure or to write off the character. The mathematical contortions are a pain to keep straight while still keeping the character reasonably balanced with the rest of the party. This is before you get into the constant Control Shape checks, Will saves, and risk of attacking and killing off other party members (I'm saying this as I think that wereleopards are NE -- please correct me if I'm wrong).

Just my $0.02

[Elijah Snow]

Lord Fyre wrote:

B.T.W., this should have been spoilered ... and in the LoF thread.

Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. A newbie mistake.

[toyrobots]

Could the powers that be please remove the spoiler from this thread's title?

Maybe call it "PCs and Lycanthropes" or something.

[Sir_Wulf]

Spoiler:

Katapeshi wereleopards are based (loosely) on the reputation leopards had in some Iranian and Indian folklore. The sources I found (1) suggested that man-eating leopards were unclean animals, more cunning and elusive than tigers, eating carrion as well as fresh meat. (2)

What I found suggested a beast far more malicious and cruel than a tiger, a sinister creature shunned by humanity. This suited my purpose well, as I wanted to discourage PC wereleopards. As posters have noted, lycanthropy can be a real pain: Chaotic Evil lycanthropy is even more troubling.

Wes Schneider (3) and I discussed how we wanted to handle the creature, then decided to build the stat block from the stats for a weretiger. (4) I did draft up another version of Haidar, one built off of wereleopard stats. (5)

If the PC deliberately shifts (thus making him “incurable”), I’d recommend that you allow the player characters to hear of an elixir, something to temporarily suppress the changes…

Oil of Henbane, Ear of Swine,
Sprig of Moly steeped in Brine,
Murd’rer’s Heart and Golden Bough,
These will hide your beast’s form now…

Boiled in an Iron Bowl,
These will feed your self-control,
But when you fail to drink your fill,
Your beast will rise and blood will spill.

So drink the potion, drink it all,
And free your beast from Lamashtu’s call.

Such an elixir might be quite toxic…

Footnotes:
(1) Stuff I found on the Internet, so it MUST be 100% accurate…

(2) Leopards normally shun humans; those who become man-eaters are often crippled or otherwise unable to hunt normally.

(3) The world’s most helpful editor.

(4) From the instructions in the Monster Manual (page 175-178).

(5) The original Haidar:

A human figure shuffles into view, a man clad in ragged, filthy robes. His eyes roll madly as he brandishes a battered walking stick at unseen menaces. “Villains! How DARE you accuse me! My line was ancient when your ancestors first built the mud huts they called homes; pharaohs and sheikhs begged my forefathers for their wisdom!”

HAIDAR, ACCURSED EMIR OF IPEQ CR 5
Male Human Lycanthrope (Wereleopard) Aristocrat 3
CE Medium Humanoid (Shapechanger, Afflicted)
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Listen +4, Spot +5

DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 11, flat-footed 12
(+1 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 37 (6d8+10)
Fort +6 Ref +5 Will +4
DR 5/silver

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +1 vicious punching dagger +6 (1d4+2d6+3/x3) or quarterstaff +5 (1d6+3)
Ranged mighty composite shortbow +5 (1d6+2/x3)

TACTICS
Before Combat Haidar has little control over his lycanthropy, so any injury he receives will likely force him into leopard form. To avoid this, he generally tries to assume hybrid form before battle. If Haidar anticipates an imminent attack, he will drink his potion of enlarge person, assume hybrid form (which requires a DC 15 Control Form skill check), and draw the punch dagger En-Nebi. If fought outdoors, he may instead plan to wield his shortbow from behind cover, hiding in hybrid form among difficult terrain.
During Combat Haidar prefers to kill “uncivilized” targets, attacking Osiriani foes afterward. Given the chance, he will circle his enemies, hunting unarmored mage-types.
Morale If reduced to 10 or fewer hit points, Haidar will flee to lick his wounds. Given the chance, he will drink his potions of cure light wounds, returning refreshed to the fray.

STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; Grapple +6
Feats Alertness (b), Combat Reflexes, Negotiator, Persuasive, Weapon Finesse
Skills Balance +9, Bluff +8, Climb +10, Control Form +2, Diplomacy +14, Hide +12, Intimidate +9, Jump +10, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +7, Listen +4, Move Silently +5, Sense Motive +8, Spot +5, Survival +4
Balance +9 (1 Dex, +8 racial), Bluff +8 (+5 ranks, +1 Cha, +2 Persuasive), Climb +10 (2 Str, +8 racial), Control Form +2 (2 ranks), Diplomacy +14 (+5 ranks, +1 Cha, +2 Negotiator, +6 synergy), Hide +12 (7 ranks, +1 Dex, +4 racial), Intimidate +9 (+4 ranks, +1 Cha, +2 Persuasive, +2 synergy), Jump +10 (2 Str, +8 racial), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +7 (5 ranks, +2 Int), Listen +4 (4 ranks), Move Silently +5 (1 Dex, +4 racial), Sense Motive +8 (5 ranks, +2 Negotiator), Spot +5 (5 ranks), Survival +4 (4 ranks)
Languages Ancient Osiriani, Common (Taldane), Giant, Osiriani
SQ damage reduction 5/silver, lycanthropic empathy, scent, alternate form, hybrid form, and animal form
Combat Gear potion of enlarge person, potions of cure light wounds (2); Other Gear +2 punching dagger, quarterstaff, mighty (Str 14) masterwork composite shortbow with 27 arrows, and 343 gp.

Damage Reduction (Su): Haidar gains Damage Reduction 5/silver while in animal or hybrid forms.

Alternate Form (Su): Haidar can shift into animal form as though using the polymorph spell on himself, though his gear is not affected, he does not regain hit points for changing form, and only the specific animal form (leopard) can be assumed. He does not assume the ability scores of the animal, but instead adds the animal's physical ability score modifiers to his own ability scores. Haidar also can assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features. Changing to or from animal or hybrid form is a standard action. If slain, Haidar reverts to his humanoid form, although he remains dead.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a wereleopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Lycanthropic Empathy (Su): In any form, Haidar can communicate and empathize with normal or dire leopards. He receives a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal's attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands.

Pounce (Ex): If a wereleopard in leopard form charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +7 melee, damage 1d3+7.

Scent (Ex): While in leopard or hybrid form, Haidar can detect opponents by sense of smell within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. This ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat.

Skills: Wereleopards have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks (already added). Wereleopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A wereleopard can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

Hybrid Form (Su): The following changes are in effect as long as Haidar is in his hybrid form:
Medium Humanoid (Shapechanger, Afflicted)
AC 18, touch 15, flat 13
(+5 Dex, +3 natural)
hp 47 (5d8+20)
Fort +8 Ref +9
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +1 vicious punching dagger +10 (1d4+2d6+6/x3), or quarterstaff +9 (1d6+7), or bite +9 (1d6+7), or +1 vicious punching dagger +10 (1d4+2d6+6/x3) and bite +4 (1d6+2), or 2 claws +9 (1d4+5) and bite +4 (1d6+2)
Ranged mighty composite shortbow +9 (1d6+2/x3)
Grp +9
Abilities Str 20, Dex 20, Con 19
Skills Balance +13, Climb +13, Hide +16, Jump +13, Move Silently +9

Animal Form (Su): The following changes are in effect as long as Haidar is in his animal form:
Medium Humanoid (Shapechanger, Afflicted)
AC 18, touch 15, flat 13
(+5 Dex, +3 natural)
hp 47 (5d8+20)
Fort +8 Ref +9
Speed 40 ft. (8 squares)
Melee Bite +9 (1d6+7), or bite +9 (1d6+7) and two claws +4 (1d3+2)
Special Attacks Pounce, Rake
Grp +9
Abilities Str 20, Dex 20, Con 19
Skills Balance +13, Climb +13, Hide +16, Jump +13, Move Silently +9

[Disenchanter]

You could base it of of a template class idea, presented here on the WotC archives. (Left box in the main pane.)

Weretiger seems too powerful to base it on, so the Werewolf might be better.

The last article even discusses acquiring the template mid campaign.

[Elijah Snow]

Sir Wulf,

This is amazing stuff. Thanks for sharing it - I will definitely put it to good use.

[Elijah Snow]

My player and I were toying with the idea of our own SS-type progression for a Pathfinder wereleopard PC with five levels. Any feedback or suggestions?

Spoiler:

Something similar to the level advancement template (both the "weretiger" template listed as well as the "tiger" template combined into one), but with a "+1 to existing spellcasting class level" stapled onto it - for all levels, preferably. I'd have to look at other prestige classes to see if that's terribly unfair/imbalanced. Basically, over 5 levels, the bonuses would be the bonuses from lycanthropy - nothing more - in addition to advancing in spellcasting. Like, call it "werecaster" or something. Any feedback on this - especially on whether the +1 level to existing spellcasting class level is too powerful?

Level 1: +2 Dex*, +2 Wis (all forms), Scent (10'), Iron Will, DR 1/Silver, LL Vision, hybrid and animal forms, Alertness, Communicate w/cats, bite attack in animal & hybrid forms, +1 Spellcasting level.
Level 2: +2 Dex, +2 Str, +1 Natural Armor, claw attacks in animal & hybrid forms, Pounce (animal only), +2 Stealth, +4 Acrobatics, DR 2/Silver, +1 Spellcasting level.
Level 3: +2 Dex, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Climb, Scent (20'), DR 3/Silver, +1 Spellcasting level.
Level 4: +2 Con, +1 Natural Armor, Weapon Finesse, Rake (animal only), +4 Acrobatics, +2 Stealth, DR 4/Silver, +1 Spellcasting level.
Level 5: +2 Dex, +2 Str, Scent (full), +4 Climb, take 10 on Climb checks when rushed threatened, take 10 on Control Shape checks even when rushed or threatened (all forms), DR 5/ Silver, +1 Spellcasting level.

Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Reflex Will Skills
1 1d8 +0 +2 +2 +0 (2 + Int)
2 2d8 +1 +3 +3 +0 (2 + Int)
3 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +1 (2 + Int)
4 4d8 +3 +4 +4 +1 (2 + Int)
5 5d8 +3 +4 +4 +1 (2 + Int)

Skills: ((2 + Int) per Level) - Acrobatics, Climb, Control Shape, Craft (any), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Swim.

*Unless noted otherwise, all attribute modifications and skill bonuses are applicable only to animal and hybrid forms. DR applies to hybrid and animal forms, and represents the total bonus at that level, it is not cumulative (such that it is DR 5/Silver at the end, not 15). Feats and low-light vision apply to all forms, as does natural armor bonus. Also of note, due to translating from 3.5 skills to Pathfinder, I converted the +8 (total) bonus to Jump and Balance to a +8 on Acrobatics.

We added one ability beyond the lycanthrope and leopard benefits which was the "take 10 on control shape" - kind of to represent the character's work in controlling the curse, to make them something close to a natural lycanthrope, but still not as controlled or powerful (no DR 10/Silver, and the Control Shape check is still required), as well as to give a little more flavor to the class, rather than it feeling like a cop-out.

[Corrosive Rabbit]

You might also want to check out Sean K. Reynold's Curse Of The Moon PDF, sold by Paizo for the low price of $5 and made even lower by the 35% off sale if you buy it before tomorrow.

I just got it and haven't had a chance to look through it, but it looks like it might be helpful. Can anyone who has read it comment?

CR

[Elijah Snow]

I picked it up. Everything he writes is pure gold, so it wasn't a difficult decision.

Corrosive Rabbit wrote:

You might also want to check out Sean K. Reynold's Curse Of The Moon PDF, sold by Paizo for the low price of $5 and made even lower by the 35% off sale if you buy it before tomorrow.

I just got it and haven't had a chance to look through it, but it looks like it might be helpful. Can anyone who has read it comment?

CR

[Mapleaxe]

Disenchanter wrote:

You could base it of of a template class idea, presented here on the WotC archives. (Left box in the main pane.)

Weretiger seems too powerful to base it on, so the Werewolf might be better.

The last article even discusses acquiring the template mid campaign.

In a previous campaign in a jungle setting, I had a PC who wanted to play a werejaguar. Assuming that roughly jaguar = leopard statwise, and using the weretiger template from that WotC article as a guide, I created a custom werejaguar template class that the character used. Overall, I'd say that it worked pretty well, but you just have to keep in mind that the player is going to be stuck to this template class for 5 class levels or so; they'll develop a number of animal-type skills and attacks (plus the always fun DR/silver), but it'll put them behind on their class abilities. Which is probably ok for a warrior-type character (in my campaign, the character was a ranger), but may be very frustrating for say a wizard.