[Druid] Beast Shape, Elemental Body, Plant Shape


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Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

It's not exactly clear that you don't gain the animal, elemental and plant type when you transform via wild shape with the subject spell-like abilities... can someone from up on high confirm this for me? (yay or nay)

I'm assuming you don't, as the wording of beast/elemental/plant shape includes features like low-light vision, which would be automatically granted if, say, someone would adopt the plant type...

Any help would be appreciated!


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

It's not exactly clear that you don't gain the animal, elemental and plant type when you transform via wild shape with the subject spell-like abilities... can someone from up on high confirm this for me? (yay or nay)

I'm assuming you don't, as the wording of beast/elemental/plant shape includes features like low-light vision, which would be automatically granted if, say, someone would adopt the plant type...

Any help would be appreciated!

I'm not someone from "on high" but I think we can answer this ourselves with a bit of logic.

Pathfinder Beta Rules wrote:
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature.

"shape" not "type"

Pathfinder Beta Rules wrote:
While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks

If you became an orc, you would not need to disguise yourself as an orc.

After polymorphing into the "shape" of something, you are still required to disguise yourself to get others to believe you are that thing. Hence, you are not that thing - you are only shaped like that thing.

Pathfinder Beta Rules wrote:
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type

"form" not "type".

There's more. But it's always clear that you are in the "shape" or "form" of a creature, and that you haven't become that creature.

A druid with a STR of 8 uses Beast Shape to become an elephant, there is no way he can pick up a tree and carry it around with his trunk - he won't have the strength for that.

Essentially, with all these spells, you are little more than a person wearing a foam rubber costume that looks like, and maybe smells like, whatever you polymorphed into. You get a few of the fringe benefits, but you never become anything other than yourself in a super duper disguise.

Ergo, you don't become the creature's type.

Besides, another way to look at it, if the game designer wanted you to assume the creature's type, it most certainly would say so either in the spell's description or in the entry about the Polymorph Subschool.

QED

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Thank you DM_Blake! you confirmed my suspicions. Also, reading the wording of these spells, one soon realizes that the "list of abilities gained" part would be 75% redundant if one would gain the creature's type.

I love the new druid wild shape.

It rocks.

:)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Thank you DM_Blake! you confirmed my suspicions. Also, reading the wording of these spells, one soon realizes that the "list of abilities gained" part would be 75% redundant if one would gain the creature's type.

I love the new druid wild shape.

It rocks.

:)

Glad I could help.

And I'm glad you like the new wild shape. Someone has to.

Actually, it seems that a lot of people like it. Maybe they just like the fact that it's easier to ploink some modifiers on the existing druid and call him wildshaped. In fact, I like that too.

But I don't like that now the druid is ineffective when he wildshapes, or he has to have a really good STR, DEX, CON, WIS, and CHA to be a halfway effective druid.

Unless all he wants to do is wildshape into a butterfly and rain lightning down on a battlefield from high up and out of reach, too small to find and too small to shoot at and, if he makes his disguise roll, nobody will even know which butterfly is the druid.

Of course, if he fails his disguise roll, people might realize that one of those butterflies is really just a druid in a butterfly costume, and then he's in trouble.

Old 3.x druids were overpowered. Simplifying the Wildshape ability was good. Simplifying the Polymorph subschool was good.

But I think Pathfinder went too far and killed the usefulness of Wildshape and vastly reduced the usefulness of Polymorph.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I think they haven't killed anything. Polymorph is now very easy to use, for one.

And I like the fact that little meek 6 STR druids don't become STR 30 monsters anymore. In fact, I just rolled a half-orc druid with a very high STR, as he will be specialized in Mounted Combat so he needs a good melee/damage bonus (he uses plant shape I in volodni or myconoid form so he can still use his magic lance). However, I could as well have gone the way of small halfling with high DEX, and made a "DEX" druid instead (because the small/tiny/diminutive forms increase your dex). The only drawback is being unable to deal physical damage; however with such dex builds, you can still whack people from a distance with produce flame and other ranged attacks. There's also flame blade, with just requires a touch attack (not sure if melee touch or ranged touch... but if melee touch, I'd say it's weapon finesseable so there you go... small butterfly, impossible to touch due to high DEX plus size bonus, and nice flame sword sticking out.. think yoda with lightsaber!)


DM_Blake wrote:

Glad I could help.

And I'm glad you like the new wild shape. Someone has to.

Actually, it seems that a lot of people like it. Maybe they just like the fact that it's easier to ploink some modifiers on the existing druid and call him wildshaped. In fact, I like that too.

I was of the camp that didn't like it at first, then I read it and played with it some and it really grew on me.

DM_Blake wrote:


But I don't like that now the druid is ineffective when he wildshapes, or he has to have a really good STR, DEX, CON, WIS, and CHA to be a halfway effective druid.

Not true, they are only ineffective if they chose not to put decent scores where the combat characters have to place them. This means you have a choice, you can either do a "combat" druid (physical stats required) or you can do a "caster" druid (caster stat required). Of course this is assuming typical scores for attributes, if you have high scores across the board you can do both. The changes mean no more of the physical dump stat casters becoming melee machines that put the melee classes to shame. You can still play a combat type caster, you just need to actually build around that concept instead of doing it on a whim like they used to be able to. You are going to get wildshape regardless of your caster stat, it isn't influenced by the spells per day, so if you want to play the wildshaping combat druid just use your caster stats as dump stats (like most combat classes do).

A utility ability shouldn't make you real good at lots of things, it should make you passable. Going from a str of 10 to 14 is a decent return, as is getting size adjustment to your stealth score for getting smaller. Wildshape gives the druid many options, I think Paizo hit the nail on the head with this change.

DM_Blake wrote:


Unless all he wants to do is wildshape into a butterfly and rain lightning down on a battlefield from high up and out of reach, too small to find and too small to shoot at and, if he makes his disguise roll, nobody will even know which butterfly is the druid.

So this druid decided on putting a good score in caster stats, that was a choice. They could have just as easily put them in physical stats and took the hit to the spell casting. Even a 12 caster stat allows for full access to most of the self buff spells a druid has. In this example you made a choice to use spells and because of that choice the character is not as combat oriented and can't mix it up in melee. If you wanted a character that could, you should have "taken the other pill" so to speak. The druid is only going to be as ineffective as you make them to be in the end.

DM_Blake wrote:


Of course, if he fails his disguise roll, people might realize that one of those butterflies is really just a druid in a butterfly costume, and then he's in trouble.

In just about all games where a character uses a "disguise" ability the DM only makes us check if we are out of context (butterfly in the middle of a storm), are close enough for it to matter (I think the rules give 30' for making spot/perception checks) or are interacting with someone so they might notice and get a check. Then add in the +8 (-2 for changing race +10 for the ability) and you have a pretty decent start even without CHR mod or skill points. In the case of a lightning bolt zipping down from the butterfly, all bets are off anyways.

DM_Blake wrote:


Old 3.x druids were overpowered. Simplifying the Wildshape ability was good. Simplifying the Polymorph subschool was good.

But I think Pathfinder went too far and killed the usefulness of Wildshape and vastly reduced the usefulness of Polymorph.

From a powergaming point of view I can see it. From a realistic game balance view the changes were needed. When the casters become better than the melee/combatant types because of 2 abilities, there is a problem. Not to mention it was only in 3.x that wildshape really gained and became famous for the strength you are saying it was robbed of. It was always a utility ability for a caster, Paizo has put it back to where it had always been. It is a good call for the game.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Underpowered from min/maxer's point of view? I beg to differ!!

I just rolled a STR 18, WIS 17 half-orc druid!

See his stats below, which have been modified via Plant Shape I (in the shape of a volodni or myconid warrior... yes... he keeps riding his large lion pet and uses his lance... yes... :) STR 20 baby!!! :) )

MATTOKH THE GREY - PLANT SHAPE I
Male half-orc Druid 8/Fighter 1
N Medium humanoid
Init +2 ; Senses Perception +7, Darkvision 60 ft.
==DEFENSE==
AC 25, touch 10, flat-footed 25 (+9 armor, +4 shield, +2 natural armor)
hp 78 (8d8+1d10+18)
Fort +10, Ref +2, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Mounted Combat, Resist Nature's Lure
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft./x3
Melee Lance +1, Charging +17 3d8+24+2d6 20/x3 (spirited charge, rhino armor enchantment)
Melee +1 Lance +14/+9 1d8+8 20/x3
Melee Claws +12/+7 1d6+5 20/x2
Special Attacks Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample
==STATISTICS==
Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 12
Base Atk +7, Cmb +12
Feats Armor Proficiency (Heavy) (PFB 82), Armor Proficiency (Light) (PFB 82), Armor Proficiency (Medium) (PFB 82), Mounted Combat (PFB 92), Natural Spell (PFB 92), Ride-By Attack (PFB 93), Shield Proficiency (PFB 94), Spirited Charge (PFB 95), Trample (PFB 96), Weapon Focus (PFB 97)
Skills Climb +11, Fly +11, Handle Animal +13, Heal +7, Knowledge (geography) +7, Knowledge (nature) +17, Perception +7, Ride +12, Spellcraft +7, Survival +17, Swim +16
Languages Common, Druidic, Giant, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Nature Bond, Trackless Step, Wild Shape, Druid Woodland Stride
Combat Gear Lance +1, Charging, +1 Lance, Claws, Dragonhide Plate +1 with Wild and Rhino enchantments, Shield, heavy wooden +2
Other Gear Armor & Shield, Weapons
Class Abilities • FORBIDDEN SPELL ALIGNMENT - No spells with alignment descriptors are forbidden due to your alignment or your deity's alignment. (PFB 22, 23).
• DRUID BONUS LANGUAGES - A Druid automatically knows Druidic, and may choose Sylvan as a bonus language. (PFB 23).
• DRUID ORISONS - Druids can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day. They can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability. 3 at 1st level, or 4 at any subsequent level. Orisons are treated like any other spell cast by the cleric in terms of duration and other variables based on level. Orisons cannot be channeled through spontaneous casting. (PFB 23).
• DRUID SPELLS - A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells. A druid must choose and prepare her spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a druid’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the druid’s Wisdom modifier. (PFB 23).
• DRUID SPONTANEOUS CASTING - A druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn’t prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature’s ally spell of the same level or lower. (PFB 23).
• DRUID WEAPONS AND ARMOR - Weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear, all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape. Armor: light and medium armor (but no metal armor); shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones. Prohibited armor or shields render the druid unable to cast druid spells or use supernatural or spell-like class abilities 24 hours. (PFB 23).
• NATURE BOND (Animal Companion - Wolf) - You have chosen an animal companion. The Wolf is detailed in MM 3.5 283. (PFB 24).
• NATURE SENSE - A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. (PFB 24).
• TRACKLESS STEP - Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired. (PFB 25).
• RESIST NATURE'S LURE - Starting at 4th level, a druid gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like and supernatural abilities of fey. This bonus also applies to spells and effects that target plants, such as blight, entangle, spike growth, and warp wood. (PFB 25).
• WILD SHAPE - You can change into the form of a beast, as detailed in PFA2 16. (PFB 25-26).
• DRUID WOODLAND STRIDE - Starting at 2nd level, a you may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her. (PFB 25).
• FIGHTER BONUS FEATS - At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from either fighter bonus feats or combat feats (see the Feats chapter). (PFB 27).
• FIGHTER WEAPONS AND ARMOR - A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). (PFB 27).
Traits • Devotee of the Green (Faith) - +1 to Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (nature) checks. Knowledge (nature) is a class skill for you. (PFCT 4)
• Reactionary (Combat) - +2 Initiative. (PFCT 4)

Name: Fenris
Creature: Cat, Big (Mountain Lion)
Creature Type Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7
hit points: 67
Initiative: +3
Speed: 70 ft. (base 40, horseshoes of speed +30)
AC: 22 (+7 natural, -1 size, +3 dex, +3 armor)
BAB 5
Attacks: 2 claws +11 1d6+7, bite +6 1d8+3; 20/x2 (plus 2 rake +11 1d6+7 when charging or grappling)
CMB: 13 (15 to overrun)
Face/Reach: 10x10; 5ft.
Special Qualities:
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: str 24, dex 17, con 17, int 2, wis 15, cha 10
STR/DEX bonus:
Skill ranks: Acrobatics 1, Perception 1, Stealth 5
Skill modifiers: Acrobatics +7 (+27 to jump), Perception +6, Stealth +15 (+23 in tall grass)
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Endurance, Run
Tricks: attack x2, track, heel, down, defend, guard, pin, seek

Special: Pounce
Low light vision
Scent
Improved Grab
Rake
Link
Share Spells
Evasion
4th HD ability score bump
Devotion

Carrying:
Light/Medium/Heavy
233/466/700 ---> (STR 24 bipedal medium)
699/1398/2100 ---> (quadruped large (x3))

druid body weight: 318
druid gear weight: 60

lion leather barding for large nonhumanoid (weight x4) = 60 lb.

Lion Currently Carrying: 438 lb total


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Dragonhide Plate +1 with Wild and Rhino enchantments

One of the problems for PF combat druids is the low AC. This character has pretty decent AC, but most DMs don't let you have a dragonhide plate - which needs the scales from a colossal dragon. Btw, could you point me where the rhino armor enhancement is described? I couldn't find it from any PF Beta resource I have.

Liberty's Edge

Also your Point Buy is 38 point
http://yellowrex.com/tools/pbcalc.php?str=13&dex=7&con=9&iq=13& amp;wis=12&cha=9&str_mod=2&dex_mod=0&con_mod=0&iq_mod=- 2&wis_mod=2&cha_mod=0&race=12

and in Paizo's Point Buy it's 31 point buy

You also never bothered to explain how your plant creature managed to hold onto the lance w/o thumbs. Anything can be powerful if you have bloated starting ability scores, even 3.5 monks can be powerful with those starting ability bonus. Please stat the following point buy 28 and/or 32 and/or for Paizo's 25 and/or 28, as they're most common point buy used.


That's quite a druid.

Did you grow him from level 1? Or make him on the spot at level 9?

There are a lot of things in this druid that might be questionable, or at least, very hard to find, in a druid who actually begins play at level and and adventures with a party of heroes, through random or purchased adventures in a world where Magic Marts are hard to find and splat books are not allowed.

With a generous DM, who allows splatbooks and makes it easy to find Magic Emporiums and willing enchnters who can whip up specially enchanted dragonhide armor and other items especially tailored to a combat druid, then yes, I can see a druid like this.

But for the rest of us, this seems, well, just a bit over the top in myconid munchkinland.

I'm fairly sure such a druid will never exist in my current DM's RotRL campaign, where we're playing exclusive Pathfinder Beta rules only.

So, as a challenge, I dare you to remake your druid, even if it is only an exercise, sticking to just the rules/items/feats/spells/etc., that are available in the PF Beta.

I'd love to see how he compares.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Just on the same topic of the polymorph school.

A druid with a high BAB would normally get iterative attacks, when a druid uses wildshape it gets the natural attacks of that creature. So say elemental body II, as a fire elemental gains the slam attack and the burn ability.

Does the druid get to make iterative attacks with the slam ability:
+7/+1 for 1d6 + 1d6 fire each?

Or does he make a single attack

+7 for 1d6 + 1d6 fire?


Galnörag wrote:

Just on the same topic of the polymorph school.

A druid with a high BAB would normally get iterative attacks, when a druid uses wildshape it gets the natural attacks of that creature. So say elemental body II, as a fire elemental gains the slam attack and the burn ability.

Does the druid get to make iterative attacks with the slam ability:
+7/+1 for 1d6 + 1d6 fire each?

Or does he make a single attack

+7 for 1d6 + 1d6 fire?

Yes, these spells use the druid's BAB which means they would use the druid's iterative attacks.

But...

"+7/+1 for 1d6 + 1d6 fire each" makes no sense.

You're talking about a medium fire elemental.

I will assume you're talking about a level 8 druid, since that's the first level they can assume the form of a medium fire elemental?

There is no enhancement to the druid's STR in this form, and his BAB is +6/+1.

So if he has no natural STR modifier, then he gets two slam attacks:
+6/+1 for 1d6 +1d6 fire each.

Or, if your druid has a STR of 12 or 13, then he gets two slam attacks:
+7/+2 for 1d6+1 +1d6 fire each.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:

That's quite a druid.

Did you grow him from level 1? Or make him on the spot at level 9?
[snip]
So, as a challenge, I dare you to remake your druid, even if it is only an exercise, sticking to just the rules/items/feats/spells/etc., that are available in the PF Beta.

I'd love to see how he compares.

Yes, I did build this guy at level 9 right from the get go. This druid is strictly PF Beta, with nothing from the early 3.5 sources. The animal companion uses the new PF Beta Plus animal companion / paladin mount unification rules.

What part of it did you believe was not PF Beta?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Yes +7/+2,

So at level 8 he can also assume the form of t-rex and get 2 bite attacks at 3d6+Str...

Damn...

Our druid posted above would have 24 str, so...
+14/+9, 3d6+7, and improved grab with a CMB of 14.

Good thing he doesn't get Swallow Whole...

Otherwise it would be just Om Nom Nom all day long...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:


What part of it did you believe was not PF Beta?

There was a question about stats, but as you said those are the stats including the Plant Shape I

so I assume your stats were:

STR 15 +2 +1 +2 20
DEX 10 10
CON 12 +2 14
INT 15 -2 +1 16
WIS 15 +2 17
CHA 12 12

Racial:
+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int

Level 4:
+1 Str

Level 8:
+1 Int

Plant Shape 1:
+2 Str, +2 Con

Total:
STR 20
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 17
CHA 12

And the point total is Paizo 25.

I guess you could nitpick technically Rhino Hide is special armour made from rhinos, and dragon plate is its own armour type, but they really could be combined, as the rhino hide just requires bullstrength to enchant.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Yes, except for Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 12; Galnorag's got the math right.

And yes, I did take the liberty to add the rhino enchantment to a non hide armor base armor (used the full plate base armor instead, with the full plate being of the dragonhide special material).

Note that I have a level of fighter so as to make use of the full plate and the lance (heavy armor not usually a druid proficiency; and lance is a martial weapon that's not on the druid's list, so you need the feat or a fighter/ranger/paladin level; or be a human so as to gain weapon training: lance)

Having a high STR and WIS (half-orc) far outweighs getting a free martial weapon IMO, especially when playing a druid... so that's why I finally settled on half-orc rather than human...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:

Yes +7/+2,

So at level 8 he can also assume the form of t-rex and get 2 bite attacks at 3d6+Str...

Damn...

Our druid posted above would have 24 str, so...
+14/+9, 3d6+7, and improved grab with a CMB of 14.

Good thing he doesn't get Swallow Whole...

Otherwise it would be just Om Nom Nom all day long...

I know the T-Rex option can sound "cool", but the reality is that a druid will never survive very long in the front row by virtue of low hit point. So yeah, you "can" look cool for a while and be a nasty T-Rex, but you'll be much more survivable via Mounted Combat with a 10' reach lance and doing ride-by-attacks (or fight from the back row with the added reach, with the heavies in the front row)

And the plant shape I regularly use is this:

Volodni warrior, Unapprochable East sourcebook

(the mushroom form I used yesterday was just because we were underground, in a deep dungeon... and I figured 'shrooms have an easier time getting sustenance underground than green plants requiring photosynthesis... :P )

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Galnörag wrote:

Yes +7/+2,

So at level 8 he can also assume the form of t-rex and get 2 bite attacks at 3d6+Str...

Damn...

Our druid posted above would have 24 str, so...
+14/+9, 3d6+7, and improved grab with a CMB of 14.

Good thing he doesn't get Swallow Whole...

Otherwise it would be just Om Nom Nom all day long...

I know the T-Rex option can sound "cool", but the reality is that a druid will never survive very long in the front row by virtue of low hit point. So yeah, you "can" look cool for a while and be a nasty T-Rex, but you'll be much more survivable via Mounted Combat with a 10' reach lance and doing ride-by-attacks (or fight from the back row with the added reach, with the heavies in the front row)

And the plant shape I regularly use is this:

Volodni warrior, Unapprochable East sourcebook

(the mushroom form I used yesterday was just because we were underground, in a deep dungeon... and I figured 'shrooms have an easier time getting sustenance underground than green plants requiring photosynthesis... :P )

But the T-Rex can fight from behind with a 10' reach

So going back to my friend the fire elemental, using the full bab of the caster (druid/wizards whatever) for determining number of attacks. If you turn into a friendly old Giant Squid (available at 8th level as a huge non-magic animal)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/squidGiant.htm

Attack: Tentacle +15 melee (1d6+8)
Full Attack: 10 tentacles +15 melee (1d6+8) and bite +10 melee (2d8+4)

Would you get to make 2 tentacle attacks at +7/+2 or do you get to make a full attack 10 tentacles at +7 and bite at +7. Or do you get 2 tentacles and 2 bites? At 7/2 or 2 tentacles and one bite? or One bite and one tentacle?

PS 30' reach for the win, even if only 2 attacks...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Yes, except for Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 12; Galnorag's got the math right.

And yes, I did take the liberty to add the rhino enchantment to a non hide armor base armor (used the full plate base armor instead, with the full plate being of the dragonhide special material).

Note that I have a level of fighter so as to make use of the full plate and the lance (heavy armor not usually a druid proficiency; and lance is a martial weapon that's not on the druid's list, so you need the feat or a fighter/ranger/paladin level; or be a human so as to gain weapon training: lance)

Having a high STR and WIS (half-orc) far outweighs getting a free martial weapon IMO, especially when playing a druid... so that's why I finally settled on half-orc rather than human...

Well the math is right, the math is just wrong, didn't add the -2 even though I listed it.

Ah well.


I'm reasonably sure that you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons. Ever. No matter how you got those natural weapons. You don't get multiple slams if you take a form that gives you slams and your BAB is high enough to give you iteratives. That's why you don't see additional attacks from monsters - a dragon's BAB may be +20, but he doesn't get five attacks with his bite attack (thank God).

This is the case for natural attacks throughout the game, and one of the reasons why you want to err on the side of big damage from your natural attacks, instead of small attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Disciple of Sakura wrote:

I'm reasonably sure that you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons. Ever. No matter how you got those natural weapons. You don't get multiple slams if you take a form that gives you slams and your BAB is high enough to give you iteratives. That's why you don't see additional attacks from monsters - a dragon's BAB may be +20, but he doesn't get five attacks with his bite attack (thank God).

This is the case for natural attacks throughout the game, and one of the reasons why you want to err on the side of big damage from your natural attacks, instead of small attacks.

From the SRD since the Beta does not have a complete Special Abilities section:

"Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions."

That, combined with the polymorph subschool notes in Beta leads me to believe that you calculate your attack bonus based on your own BAB and ability modifiers (modified by the new form), but are still restricted to the 1 attack/natural weapon rule.


Galnörag wrote:

If you turn into a friendly old Giant Squid (available at 8th level as a huge non-magic animal) ... Would you get to make 2 tentacle attacks at +7/+2 or do you get to make a full attack 10 tentacles at +7 and bite at +7. Or do you get 2 tentacles and 2 bites? At 7/2 or 2 tentacles and one bite? or One bite and one tentacle?

PS 30' reach for the win, even if only 2 attacks...

Pretty sure you would get the whole full attack. However I have some thing in the back of my head about turning into creatures with 6 arms and only getting 2 attacks - I think it was another edition thing that I read recently, not anything to do with this.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

After giving one more read to this, I realize that my druid is more powerful than I thought.

Reading Beast Shape III, for example, one will note that you can gain pounce and rake... so if you're beast shaped into a lion, you *do* get 5 freakish attacks on a charge! (2 claws, one bite that triggers improved grab, 2 rakes) This suggests that if you wild shape into a form with multiple natural attacks, or multiple slams (in the case of elementals), you *do* get these attacks.

Galnorag... perhaps I *will* take that T-Rex option... thank you! :)

Time to go back to the drawing board...

Xuttah is right that the druid's iterative sequence don't apply here, but in most case, who cares? the amount of attacks you get by being a dire lion is far superior anyhow.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Galnorag, Xuttah: require feat selection suggestion... will keep natural spell, but will ditch Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, and Weapon Focus Lance.

Need suggestions for replacement. Can a druid take Weapon Focus: any natural attack? :P or do you have to be specific (claw, bite, etc.)

I don't really feel like redesigning this PC at this point, but I believe that a bit of extra work now will pay off, as I think I *would* have more fun by exploring various forms of wild shape rather than always sticking to plant shape (medium) while riding a mount. That, and the fact that during a whole night of fighting yesterday, I wasn't able to make use of ride-by and trample (and I do not foresee being able to do so very often).

It almost seem like Spell Focus conjuration and Augment Summoning seems like two obvious choice... but I'm a high STR half-orc who wants to pound enemies into pudding while in animal form! LOL! (so perhaps Power Attack / ImprovedOverrun / ImprovedBullRush? Toughness?)

Not sure I'll keep the fighter level anymore (removing it would give me access to 5th level spells).

Thoughts?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

After giving one more read to this, I realize that my druid is more powerful than I thought.

Reading Beast Shape III, for example, one will note that you can gain pounce and rake... so if you're beast shaped into a lion, you *do* get 5 freakish attacks on a charge! (2 claws, one bite that triggers improved grab, 2 rakes) This suggests that if you wild shape into a form with multiple natural attacks, or multiple slams (in the case of elementals), you *do* get these attacks.

I think it is one rake not two.

I've been scanning the forums intensely and the natural attack single/iterative seem to have swung both ways. The shape change rules are ambiguous, but it is clearly going to be more beneficial in some forms, and less so in others. Like having iterative t-rex attacks would be better then one, but having the full attacks of the lion is better then just having iterative claws. As long as one is consistent it should be okay. But seriously, druids at level 8 can become a huge squid.... that is awesome...

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:


Galnorag... perhaps I *will* take that T-Rex option... thank you! :)

*nods in satisfaction* excellent

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, and Weapon Focus Lance.

Not to be mean, but I did try and warn you that the mounted combat stuff never really works in dungeon crawl groups :)


Majuba wrote:
Galnörag wrote:

If you turn into a friendly old Giant Squid (available at 8th level as a huge non-magic animal) ... Would you get to make 2 tentacle attacks at +7/+2 or do you get to make a full attack 10 tentacles at +7 and bite at +7. Or do you get 2 tentacles and 2 bites? At 7/2 or 2 tentacles and one bite? or One bite and one tentacle?

PS 30' reach for the win, even if only 2 attacks...

Pretty sure you would get the whole full attack. However I have some thing in the back of my head about turning into creatures with 6 arms and only getting 2 attacks - I think it was another edition thing that I read recently, not anything to do with this.

Maybe.

If this were a dicussion about 3.5 druids, who would actually turn into a t-rex, I would say you're right.

If a druid becomes a t-rex, with the AC, HP, STR, CON, and full abilities of a t-rex, then I can see limiting him to the attacks of a t-rex.

But we're talking about Pathfinder.

In Pathfinder, polymorph has changed. Wildshape has changed. The druid does not really turn into a t-rex. He only assumes the form of the t-rex. It's the druid's AC, HP, STR, CON, etc., that matters.

Sure, he gets the big chompy teeth, but his skill at using those big chompy teeth is his own.

He's not really a t-rex.

He's just a guy in a t-rex disguise. He looks like a t-rex, but he actually has to make disguise skill checks to convince anyone he's a t-rex, and anyone who senses motive well enough will realize it's just a druid in a costume.

Look at it another way.

Suppose your druid goes down to the corner costume store. He buys a foam rubber t-rex suit. He hires a gnome to replace the foam rubber teeth with some steel contraption that works like a huge bear trap, complete with mechanisms that allow the druid to open it and slam it shut from inside the costume.

Then he trains a bit and learns the exotic weapon familiarity to use his t-rex-bear-trap-teeth weapon so he can be proficient.

Now he walks outinto the woods in his t-rex suit and finds an ogre. Before the fight, he drops a bear's endurance and bull's strength on himself.

Now he's a druid in a t-rex costume with a few buffs that increase some of his physical stats.

This druid, in t-rex costume, can bite the ogre using his exotic weapon with the druid's full iterative attacks. The ogre might or might not think it's a real t-rex, based on the druid's diguise roll.

The Pathfinder wildshape rules are pretty much exactly the same. Wildshape gives the druid a costume that comes with an a few buffs to his physical stats and comes with an attack or two, but the druid still has to make those attacks.

I don't see a problem at all with the druid using his iterative attacks.

Wildshape has been nerfed enough, let him at least use the abilities he has acquired over his adventuring career.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

After giving one more read to this, I realize that my druid is more powerful than I thought.

Reading Beast Shape III, for example, one will note that you can gain pounce and rake... so if you're beast shaped into a lion, you *do* get 5 freakish attacks on a charge! (2 claws, one bite that triggers improved grab, 2 rakes) This suggests that if you wild shape into a form with multiple natural attacks, or multiple slams (in the case of elementals), you *do* get these attacks.

Galnorag... perhaps I *will* take that T-Rex option... thank you! :)

Time to go back to the drawing board...

Xuttah is right that the druid's iterative sequence don't apply here, but in most case, who cares? the amount of attacks you get by being a dire lion is far superior anyhow.

I am pretty sure that the rake attack is only applied if you mantain a hold. Establishing the grapple is different in my opinion. I agree that the wording in pounce implies the opposite. But it just don't make any sense that you get additional attacks with the claws you've already used once.

On the notion of plant shape 1, I think you should take a look at Violet Fungus. Low speed, but I can live with that. But 4 attacks at your full attack bonus. Full str bonus to all attacks make up for only 1d6 dam (which is doubled with a flaming, shocking, or frost Amulet of Mighty Fists). And to top it all, every attacks has a chance of poisoning the target (although I am not entirely sure how to translate the 1d4 str + 1d4 con to pathfinder rules).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:


Suppose your druid goes down to the corner costume store. He buys a foam rubber t-rex suit. He hires a gnome to replace the foam rubber teeth with some steel contraption that works like a huge bear trap, complete with mechanisms that allow the druid to open it and slam it shut from inside the costume.

Then he trains a bit and learns the exotic weapon familiarity to use his t-rex-bear-trap-teeth weapon so he can be proficient.

Now he walks outinto...

Going with the costume approach means we have to give our squid druid 22 attacks

10 tentcles at 7/2 and 2 bites at 7/2

no?


Galnörag wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


Suppose your druid goes down to the corner costume store. He buys a foam rubber t-rex suit. He hires a gnome to replace the foam rubber teeth with some steel contraption that works like a huge bear trap, complete with mechanisms that allow the druid to open it and slam it shut from inside the costume.

Then he trains a bit and learns the exotic weapon familiarity to use his t-rex-bear-trap-teeth weapon so he can be proficient.

Now he walks outinto...

Going with the costume approach means we have to give our squid druid 22 attacks

10 tentcles at 7/2 and 2 bites at 7/2

no?

Absolutely no.

If you're 20th level fighter with 4 iterative attacks picks up a sword in his other hand, or sticks a spike on his shield, does that automatically mean 4 iterative attacks with each hand?

Nope.

He's still only able to pick one hand and get his 4 iterative attacks, then get just one single extra attack with his secondary attack.

So in squid form, the iterative druid picks a tentacle and attacks at 7/2, then his other 9 tentacles are at 7, and his bite is at 2 (unless he has the Multiattack feat).

So all his iterative goodness gives him is the one extra tentacle attack at +2 to hit.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely no.

If you're 20th level fighter with 4 iterative attacks picks up a sword in his other hand, or sticks a spike on his shield, does that automatically mean 4 iterative attacks with each hand?

Nope.

He's still only able to pick one hand and get his 4 iterative attacks, then get just one single extra attack with his secondary attack.

So in squid form, the iterative druid picks a tentacle and attacks at 7/2, then his other 9 tentacles are at 7, and his bite is at 2 (unless he has the Multiattack feat).

So all his iterative goodness gives him is the one extra tentacle attack at +2 to hit.

So he gets the hybrid of the two, that makes the least sense of all?

So the pouncing lion gets 3 claws, 7/2, 7 a bite at 2, and a possible rake at 7


Galnörag wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely no.

If you're 20th level fighter with 4 iterative attacks picks up a sword in his other hand, or sticks a spike on his shield, does that automatically mean 4 iterative attacks with each hand?

Nope.

He's still only able to pick one hand and get his 4 iterative attacks, then get just one single extra attack with his secondary attack.

So in squid form, the iterative druid picks a tentacle and attacks at 7/2, then his other 9 tentacles are at 7, and his bite is at 2 (unless he has the Multiattack feat).

So all his iterative goodness gives him is the one extra tentacle attack at +2 to hit.

So he gets the hybrid of the two, that makes the least sense of all?

So the pouncing lion gets 3 claws, 7/2, 7 a bite at 2, and a possible rake at 7

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Look, a fighter, or a ranger, or rogue, or wizard, or druid, at whatever level they each need to be where they are +7/+2 with their BAB, when they are in their very own form, they get to use one weapon. A fist, a sword, a kick, or even a bite if they want. That person can pick his one mode of attack an then attack twice, first at +7, then again at +2.

That's how it works.

Now the same guy puts a weapon in his other hand. We'll ignore for a moment the penalties for fighting with two weapons. Now he's +7 and +2 with his original, main weapon of choice, and +7 with his secondary weapon. Then we apply two-weapon penalties and those numbers go down.

It's no different for the druid who uses wildshape to gain the form of a lion. He will have a primary attack. In the lion's body, we would likely pick whatever the lion's primary attack is, a claw. So Claw at +7 and +2, secondary claw at +7, and secondary bite at +2, with a possible rake at +7.

Rather that seems sensible or not, it meshes exactly with how dual weapons work for PCs, modified to accomodate the rules for natural attacks (such as the way both claws get the high BAB).

What, don't think a lion could swat you twice in 6 seconds with the same paw?

I could. My cats could. My dog could. And I have no reason to think a lion is slower than any of that, so a lion probably could too.

Would a lion attack like that? Who cares. Remember, we're not talking about a real lion. We're talking about a druid in a lion costume.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, and Weapon Focus Lance.
Not to be mean, but I did try and warn you that the mounted combat stuff never really works in dungeon crawl groups :)

I was fully warned from the get go, and still proceeded to make a mounted druid. Why? at the time I thought a druid in a squid costume attacked only once per iterative attack (so at my level, twice). Now that it seems that a druid in a squid costume can attack 10 bloody times, this is giving me a slight pause, and I might reconsider my build...

So yes, you warned me. Now what? suggestions? ;)

Scarab Sages

To support DM Blake.

D20 SRD wrote:


Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

This has been covered before, but multiple attacks from a high BAB only apply to a single attack, their 'primary' weapon. They could feasibly apply to a single off-hand attack, but you would need Two Weapon Fighting for that.

A creature with a bite and ten tentacles would likely get their full BAB with the single bite, and one attack with each tentacle at a -5 penalty (unless they had the Multiattack feat, then the penalty is only -2).

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Galnörag wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, and Weapon Focus Lance.
Not to be mean, but I did try and warn you that the mounted combat stuff never really works in dungeon crawl groups :)

I was fully warned from the get go, and still proceeded to make a mounted druid. Why? at the time I thought a druid in a squid costume attacked only once per iterative attack (so at my level, twice). Now that it seems that a druid in a squid costume can attack 10 bloody times, this is giving me a slight pause, and I might reconsider my build...

So yes, you warned me. Now what? suggestions? ;)

A druid in a squid costume, riding a...

Squid!

20 attacks!

Can you apply Spirited Charge to all of them? Oh please, oh please, please pleae please...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:


Can you apply Spirited Charge to all of them? Oh please, oh please, please pleae please...

Yes but only when out in the desert!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

LOL!

Nah... spirited charge works for one attack only.

Spirited Charge (Combat)
Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount
of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By
Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action,
you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple
damage with a lance).

..and from PRPG Beta p.149:

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a
single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll
and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your
next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver
attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent (see
Bull Rush).
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a
high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple
weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Hmm... seeing that I don't have anything better to spend my feats on, I've come to the conclusion that the mounted feats I took are not a complete waste.

I mean, when I *will* be in the open, it's a pretty safe way to go.

Here's a typical round in the open:

1. Charge enemy with mount
2. Spirited Charge with Lance = x3 dmg attack with +2 bonus from charge, 10 feet from enemy
3. Ride-by Attack = keep moving *towards* enemy
4a. Trample = mount gets to make overrun attempt on enemy and if successful, enemy is prone and mounts makes an attack at +6 to hit (+4 prone, +2 from the charge)
4b. I gave my mount Improved Overrun, which helps achieving 4a. (gives +2, but a little redundant as the mount does not provoke AoO doing this already by virtue of Ride-by Attack feat; however this means my mount can do this at some other time without provoking AoOs when I'm not riding it)
5. Keep moving until my mount runs out of squares (speed 70 ft, so on a charge up to 140 ft of movement...)

Frankly, for a high STR half-orc druid with Animal Companion, I'm not sure which feats would be better than the Mounted Combat tree, so I might keep 'em just 'cause.

On the "extra feats" thread I found a few good candidates though:

Lunge (Combat) --> for both the druid and the animal companion...
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet by taking a –4 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.

Greater Overrun (Combat) --> for the animal companion...
Enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.
Prerequisites: Improved Overrun, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they attempt to avoid you or are knocked prone by your overrun.
Normal: Creatures that avoid your overrun or are knocked prone do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Step Up (Combat) --> animal companion? druid? thoughts?
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn and you count as if you had take a 5-foot step on that turn (preventing any other movement).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

You know what guys...

I think I just found something so sick it wasn't meant to be discovered...

With all the brouhaha surrounding the new polymorph system, which clearly indicates that *now*, druid only change form and do *not* adopt a new creature type... well... this means that the druid, even in wildshape, is still a humanoid (human), humanoid (elf), humanoid (dwarf), etc.

You get my meaning? :)

Yes, this means that the Enlarge Person spell still works in wild shape.

:)

Now, the Paizo guys were smart enough to write a neat little clause under the spell that speficies that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," so you're limited to the wild shapes that offer a "medium" option.

So my druid, in the above example, can now wild shape plant shape I into a medium-sized volodni or myconid warrior, and THEN get Enlarged Person cast on him. Enlarge Person's +2 size bonus to STR stacks with the Plant Shape I +2 enhancement bonus to STR.

That, or wild shape into medium elemental THEN enlarge person. Nice.


Nethys wrote:

This has been covered before, but multiple attacks from a high BAB only apply to a single attack, their 'primary' weapon. They could feasibly apply to a single off-hand attack, but you would need Two Weapon Fighting for that.

A creature with a bite and ten tentacles would likely get their full BAB with the single bite, and one attack with each tentacle at a -5 penalty (unless they had the Multiattack feat, then the penalty is only -2).

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

Sorry to contradict you, but...

Official 3.5 FAQ, page 97:
"How do I know whether a monster gets multiple attacks for a high base attack bonus? Some of the monsters in the MM have multiple attacks, but others don’t, even with the same base attack bonus. Why doesn’t a great wyrm red dragon get eight bite attacks per round? After all, its base attack bonus is +40.
The rules for multiple attacks are different for manufactured weapons (such as swords and bows) and for natural weapons (such as claws and bites). A creature wielding a weapon gets multiple attacks based on its base attack bonus, regardless of whether that creature is a goblin, a giant, or a pit fiend. Regardless of its base attack bonus, a creature never gets more than four attacks with any given weapon purely from its base attack bonus (see the sidebar on page 207 of the DMG)— thus, if a great wyrm red dragon could wield a manufactured weapon, it still could make only four attacks with it as part of a full attack action (at +40/+35/+30/+25).
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. A young adult red dragon gets only one bite attack per round, even though a fighter with the same +19 base attack bonus attacks four times per round with a sword or other manufactured weapon."

This should be sufficiently exhaustive.

As a 'foam-rubber polymorphed Druid', you still have to resort to Natural Attacks... and those fall under the aforementioned rule.

Liberty's Edge

Umm you're forgetting that Wildshape provides enhancement bonus not size bonus.Using your logic if someone cast Enlarge person and I fail my save and I cast Rightious might the +4 Str won't overlap.

So in other words the +2 Str increase from enlarge person will over lap with the +0 Str increase from wildshape.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

You know what guys...

I think I just found something so sick it wasn't meant to be discovered...

With all the brouhaha surrounding the new polymorph system, which clearly indicates that *now*, druid only change form and do *not* adopt a new creature type... well... this means that the druid, even in wildshape, is still a humanoid (human), humanoid (elf), humanoid (dwarf), etc.

You get my meaning? :)

Yes, this means that the Enlarge Person spell still works in wild shape.

:)

Now, the Paizo guys were smart enough to write a neat little clause under the spell that speficies that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," so you're limited to the wild shapes that offer a "medium" option.

So my druid, in the above example, can now wild shape plant shape I into a medium-sized volodni or myconid warrior, and THEN get Enlarged Person cast on him. Enlarge Person's +2 size bonus to STR stacks with the Plant Shape I +2 enhancement bonus to STR.

That, or wild shape into medium elemental THEN enlarge person. Nice.

Better yet, take a Druid with 9 levels of Cleric, and cast Righteos Might after/before Wild Shaping... now THAT is a BIG MUSHROOM (Diablo quote off)...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HaraldKlak wrote:


I am pretty sure that the rake attack is only applied if you mantain a hold. Establishing the grapple is different in my opinion. I agree that the wording in pounce implies the opposite. But it just don't make any sense that you get additional attacks with the claws you've already used once.

On the notion of plant shape 1, I think you should take a look at Violet Fungus. Low speed, but I can live with that. But 4 attacks at your full attack bonus. Full str bonus to all attacks make up for only 1d6 dam (which is doubled with a flaming, shocking, or frost Amulet of Mighty Fists). And to top it all, every attacks has a chance of poisoning the target (although I am not entirely sure how to translate the 1d4 str + 1d4 con to pathfinder rules).

Obviously you don't have pet cats. :)

It works like this. Charge, claw, claw, bite (Note you have to get all three to hit, per the pounce ability). If you successfully hit with all three, what you are doing is sinking claws into left shoulder, sinking claws into right shoulder, biting the throat, and then pulling up BOTH rear legs and raking with the rear legs (Also known as 'Bunny Kicking' if you own cats). The Rake is the rear legs, not the front ones. And it's one attack, not two rakes (both rear paws involved).

I've always made my players give a STR check (DC = Damage Done by all attacks) or be knocked prone by this if the creature is their size or larger. Imagine a 300 lb cougar pouncing on you, clawing your chest, biting your throat, and then raking your stomach.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
mdt wrote:


Obviously you don't have pet cats. :)

My cats are lazy, if while lying upside down belly exposed you start rubbing there tummy, then they will give you the bite/claw/claw/rake attack. But pounce and do it... naaaaah to much effort


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:
mdt wrote:


Obviously you don't have pet cats. :)

My cats are lazy, if while lying upside down belly exposed you start rubbing there tummy, then they will give you the bite/claw/claw/rake attack. But pounce and do it... naaaaah to much effort

Haha,

The first time I read the Pounce rules, a picture of my two cats going at each other, forelegs wrapped around each other's necks, biting and bunny kicking each other. Rule made perfect sense immediately. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

As for this notion of the costume, I'm not sure I'm buying it.

Wild shape is Magic, you don't take on the official type of the creature, but your body does transform, your limbs extend, muscles grow etc. The disguise bonus comes from the fact just because you look like a cat doesn't mean you have the perfect mannerisms. Your pace, posture, and behavior may look like a cat, but they aren't perfect, and so true natives of that species may think you are suspicious.

While another wild animal would probably just be confused or avoid you, if you were trying to say trick another druid to think your just a cow cropping grass, the druid if suspicious, could make a knowledge nature/sence motive or some other opposed roll vs your disguises to know that you were acting suspiciously uncow like, but wouldn't instantly know "Ah Ha that is a wild shaped druid."

Costume or no costume it is clear that the rules are not clear with the new rules if the natural attacks remain natural attacks or not. While I respect DM Blake's opinion here, it isn't the only clearly reasoned one, and I think both opinions expressed are valid rule interpretations.

As it is clearly too late to beat the printing, lets hope that this ambiguity is cleared up in the rules already :) Or maybe we can start an FAQ errata :)

Liberty's Edge

Galnörag wrote:

As for this notion of the costume, I'm not sure I'm buying it.

Wild shape is Magic, you don't take on the official type of the creature, but your body does transform, your limbs extend, muscles grow etc. The disguise bonus comes from the fact just because you look like a cat doesn't mean you have the perfect mannerisms. Your pace, posture, and behavior may look like a cat, but they aren't perfect, and so true natives of that species may think you are suspicious.

While another wild animal would probably just be confused or avoid you, if you were trying to say trick another druid to think your just a cow cropping grass, the druid if suspicious, could make a knowledge nature/sence motive or some other opposed roll vs your disguises to know that you were acting suspiciously uncow like, but wouldn't instantly know "Ah Ha that is a wild shaped druid."

Costume or no costume it is clear that the rules are not clear with the new rules if the natural attacks remain natural attacks or not. While I respect DM Blake's opinion here, it isn't the only clearly reasoned one, and I think both opinions expressed are valid rule interpretations.

As it is clearly too late to beat the printing, lets hope that this ambiguity is cleared up in the rules already :) Or maybe we can start an FAQ errata :)

I thought you get +10 disguise check, but then again another druid would have perception...


mdt wrote:
HaraldKlak wrote:


I am pretty sure that the rake attack is only applied if you mantain a hold. Establishing the grapple is different in my opinion. I agree that the wording in pounce implies the opposite. But it just don't make any sense that you get additional attacks with the claws you've already used once.

Obviously you don't have pet cats. :)

It works like this. Charge, claw, claw, bite (Note you have to get all three to hit, per the pounce ability). If you successfully hit with all three, what you are doing is sinking claws into left shoulder, sinking claws into right shoulder, biting the throat, and then pulling up BOTH rear legs and raking with the rear legs (Also known as 'Bunny Kicking' if you own cats). The Rake is the rear legs, not the front ones. And it's one attack, not two rakes (both rear paws involved).

Wow, you own vicious cats...

I've pretty much had two cats at all times over the past 25 years or so, and I've never had them rake me.

Not once.

But yeah, I watch America's Funniest Videos, and the National Geographic Channel, and I've seen cats use this tactic on TV, and I agree that yours is a fairly accurate description.

However, you said "it's one attack" which technically is true, but it's still two attack rolls because there are two rear legs involved:

d20 SRD wrote:

Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Now the idea that a critter with Rake cannot use rake during the round it charges is supported by that same description of the Rake ability I just quoted above.

However, the description of the Pounce special ability changes, and overrides, that limitation:

d20 SRD wrote:

Pounce

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

I say this overrides the limitation becaue it specifically refers to the Rake ability by name and offers an addition rule that enhances Rake in a very specific and directly referenced way.

So if a cat just uses a claw/claw/bite routine on someone standing next to it, it cannot rake in that round. But if it pounces, according to the Pounce ability, it can claw/claw/bite/rake/rake as part of that pounce attack.

mdt wrote:
I've always made my players give a STR check (DC = Damage Done by all attacks) or be knocked prone by this if the creature is their size or larger. Imagine a 300 lb cougar pouncing on you, clawing your chest, biting your throat, and then raking your stomach.

Wow, big cougars in your neck of the woods. Enormous. You sure you're thinking of cats?

According to the San Diego Zoo facts, males top out at 227 pounds and average only 187 pounds. Females are tiny comparatively, topping out at just 132 pounds.

I can no more imagine a 300 pound cougar pouncing on me (well, of the feline variety) than I can imagine a 300 pound griffon pouncing on me - both are creatures of myth. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Suzaku wrote:
I thought you get +10 disguise check, but then again another druid would have perception...

You do, because you look just like that thing.

Liberty's Edge

Every time I read the "rubber foam costume" analogy, I think of Invader Zim in his "improved" human disguise. Makes me giggle. I'll have to draw my kobod bard of the same name in one to illustrate disguise self or alter self. :)

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