The "I SUPPORT HUMAN CLONING " Thread


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The Exchange

I've read bad science fiction with space travel as the plot - should we avoid doing that as well?


Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:

You just kill the pig and take the organ(s) you need. There won't be a rejection by your system, because it's YOU. Then, when you wake up, you can have a nice ham and bacon breakfast.

Who could POSSIBLY be against that?

People concerned with diseases jumping species. When an animal has dna from different species, then it makes it more likely that an illness will be compatible between both of the parent species.

Anyway that is very limited. Yes you get your liver and you kill the pig. 10 years later you need a new heart. Where did I put my pig? Oh yeah, I killed it for my liver. A better choice would be to find a way to just grow individual organs, then you could grow one using your DNA at any point in your life.

EDIT: Also another group that would be against it would be the animal rights advocates.


Organ cloning is a different matter for me.


Progress is inevitable. Every single discovery in mankind's history can (and has) be used for evil, but that hasn't stopped progress, and in the end we're still way better off than our medieval or cavemen forebears.

Cloning has -horrible- possibilities, granted, but we can only hope for the best.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

It's also inevitable that human overpopulation will destroy the ecology of the Earth. I'm all for staving it off as long as possible, but eventually we're going to need to get off this rock and spread out, virus-like, to the stars.

We're all here to go.

The Exchange

Erik Mona wrote:

It's also inevitable that human overpopulation will destroy the ecology of the Earth. I'm all for staving it off as long as possible, but eventually we're going to need to get off this rock and spread out, virus-like, to the stars.

We're all here to go.

Yes but should we be cloning ourselves to populate the stars???

The Exchange

pres man wrote:


People concerned with diseases jumping species. When an animal has dna from different species, then it makes it more likely that an illness will be compatible between both of the parent species.

That's a potential issue nobody has ever mentioned to me before. Hopefully the gain outweighs the potential loss.

pres man wrote:


Anyway that is very limited. Yes you get your liver and you kill the pig. 10 years later you need a new heart. Where did I put my pig? Oh yeah, I killed it for my liver.

That's just it - pigs have shorter life expectancies than people, so you just continue cloning the pig. Besides, how many people need MULTIPLE organ transplants in their lives?

pres man wrote:


A better choice would be to find a way to just grow individual organs, then you could grow one using your DNA at any point in your life.

That's a LOT harder to do. Keeping an organ artificially alive isn't easy - putting into a living creature and having it just do what it does is much easier. The technology I'm talking about is pretty much available.

Plus, then there's no bacon and ham breakfast! I like that part! :)

pres man wrote:


EDIT: Also another group that would be against it would be the animal rights advocates.

We already kill pigs for food. What's the difference?


Dogbert wrote:
Cloning has -horrible- possibilities, granted, but we can only hope for the best.

I've got an idea for the most effective weapon of mass destruction ever made. Should I pursue it? Sure...let's hope for the best. :S

As far as the ethical issues with space travel -- they are nowhere near analogous to those with human cloning.

The Exchange

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
As far as the ethical issues with space travel -- they are nowhere near analogous to those with human cloning.

Space Cylinder:

Babylon 5 - "...a Billion tons of spinning metal..."

Time to build: 1000 years using current launch technology
Description: 2.283 launches of 50 tons payload per hour/24 hours/365 days/1000 years
Population Supported: 1,000,000
Cost: 20 million-billion dollars (1 billion dollars to orbit 50 tons).


Sounds like a great industry.

The Exchange

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Sounds like a great industry.

Huh? Watchamean?


If we don't start cloning now, who will protect us from the zombie hordes?

What's that you say? Clones aren't immune to being turned into zombies? Now he tells me. (Frantically tries to destroy the clone zombie hordes)


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Dogbert wrote:
Cloning has -horrible- possibilities, granted, but we can only hope for the best.

I've got an idea for the most effective weapon of mass destruction ever made. Should I pursue it? Sure...let's hope for the best. :S

As far as the ethical issues with space travel -- they are nowhere near analogous to those with human cloning.

Historically, the most effective weapon of mass destruction is human nature.


A project that big is going to employ a lot of people and put a lot of money in a lot of people's pockets. Go space travel. Advance science, improve lives. Where's this in Obama's recovery plan?


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
I've got an idea for the most effective weapon of mass destruction ever made. Should I pursue it? Sure...let's hope for the best. :S

You see an A-Bomb, I see a hadron super collider. Which one was true? Both.

You see a slave-subhuman clone dystopia, I see gene therapy improvements. Which one is more likely to become true? Perhaps both, perhaps one, perhaps none.

The bigger the discovery, the bigger the possibility it will be weaponized. In the end, the world was still vastly benefitted by the fact that people like Einstein, Heisenberg, and Mendel were here.

The Exchange

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
A project that big is going to employ a lot of people and put a lot of money in a lot of people's pockets. Go space travel. Advance science, improve lives. Where's this in Obama's recovery plan?

But there are ethics issues even with a space program. Something as simple as 'who gets to go?' of 'What space program do we select?' has ramifications.

The Space cylinder takes 1000 yrs, Launch cost: 20 million-billion, and puts 1 million in space.

The 500 Ton single stage Colonization Habitiat
Launch Cost: 16.666 million-billion(10 billion/hab)
Time: 1.9 launches per hour/24 hours/365 days/100 years.

Description: The deployment of 10 million Lunar Colonists over a period of 100 years with single stage launchers that function as Habitiats. Each habitiat is designed to support 6 colonists.

Population: 10 million colonists


There's that whole end versus means thing, Dogbert. The lives of the people who were lost to A-bombs, how do we measure their worth?
___________________________________________________________________________
Yep, I read your stats, YD. I'm not saying they're aren't ethical ramifications, I'm saying it's a good end that will have mostly good consequences flowing from its means. I'll gladly give up my place on the cylinder (time frame aside) if it means another human gets to go. I'm saying those who remain behind will likely benefit as well as those who go likely would.

The Exchange

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

There's that whole end versus means thing, Dogbert. The lives of the people who were lost to A-bombs, how do we measure their worth?

___________________________________________________________________________
Yep, I read your stats, YD. I'm not saying they're aren't ethical ramifications, I'm saying it's a good end that will have mostly good consequences flowing from its means. I'll gladly give up my place on the cylinder (time frame aside) if it means another human gets to go. I'm saying those who remain behind will likely benefit as well as those who go likely would.

Would you rather be one of the Lunar COlonists we send in 2015?


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
There's that whole end versus means thing, Dogbert. The lives of the people who were lost to A-bombs, how do we measure their worth?

And yet, ironically, it's only war that makes such discoveries profitable to the point they can eventually bleed their benefits to the masses. Just look at computing, if not for America's unending contingency plans for world war III we wouldn't have internet today (the TCP/IP protocol was developed by D.A.R.P.A so their communications could endure a M.A.D scenario by taking alternate routes through whatever nodes where still standing after a nuclear strike).

I don't encourage war, I don't condone war, I have friends in the US army I don't want to come to harm. Sadly, I'm not talking about how things -should be-, but about the way things -are-.

Having said this, Mairkurion, I must say the world needs a couple billions more people like you, perhaps then things would be different.

The Exchange

With China sliding down the road toward a Majority Male Population Is cloning going to be their final resort? Or will they abduct all your females?

The Exchange

yellowdingo wrote:
With China sliding down the road toward a Majority Male Population Is cloning going to be their final resort? Or will they abduct all your females?

Nah, it will just be a wonderful thing to be a woman in China. They'll be able to be extremely picky regarding who they choose to mate with.

The Exchange

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:


As far as the ethical issues with space travel -- they are nowhere near analogous to those with human cloning.

I didn't mean to suggest they were - only pointing out the fallacy in your logic. I support space travel 100%.

The Exchange

Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
With China sliding down the road toward a Majority Male Population Is cloning going to be their final resort? Or will they abduct all your females?

Nah, it will just be a wonderful thing to be a woman in China. They'll be able to be extremely picky regarding who they choose to mate with.

Will Women be quantified as a resource as a consequence of any shortage? What happens when Men want a woman? Rape, Abduction, Resource War...

The Exchange

Project for the next Convention

White Tracksuit with the following printed on it:

CLONE
{your name in Barcode font}

Dark Archive

Tensor wrote:

Whenever this topic comes up, I have to wonder... if you have sex with your clone is this masturbation or homosexuality?

:-k

Or necessity?

<sniff>

"Blobs Need Love Too!"


yellowdingo wrote:
With China sliding down the road toward a Majority Male Population Is cloning going to be their final resort? Or will they abduct all your females?

Actually this is going to cause the biggest change in China with respect to democracy. Why? All of those chinese girls that were adopted by Americans are going to start being enticed to come back to China now that they are so needed. These often highly educated women are going to transform China to meet their needs.

Silver Crusade

yellowdingo wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
As far as the ethical issues with space travel -- they are nowhere near analogous to those with human cloning.

Space Cylinder:

Babylon 5 - "...a Billion tons of spinning metal..."

Time to build: 1000 years using current launch technology
Description: 2.283 launches of 50 tons payload per hour/24 hours/365 days/1000 years
Population Supported: 1,000,000
Cost: 20 million-billion dollars (1 billion dollars to orbit 50 tons).

Sounds like Chrysler's business model.

Sovereign Court

Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:


Who could POSSIBLY be against that?

PETA

The Exchange

lastknightleft wrote:
Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:


Who could POSSIBLY be against that?

PETA

Yeah, but who listens to them? Besides, as I said, we already consume pigs for food...this is a better, more efficient use of the WHOLE animal. Usually those entrails would just be thrown away at the slaughterhouse (the parts that aren't turned into bologna and hot dogs, that is)


Dogbert wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
There's that whole end versus means thing, Dogbert. The lives of the people who were lost to A-bombs, how do we measure their worth?

And yet, ironically, it's only war that makes such discoveries profitable to the point they can eventually bleed their benefits to the masses. Just look at computing, if not for America's unending contingency plans for world war III we wouldn't have internet today (the TCP/IP protocol was developed by D.A.R.P.A so their communications could endure a M.A.D scenario by taking alternate routes through whatever nodes where still standing after a nuclear strike).

I don't encourage war, I don't condone war, I have friends in the US army I don't want to come to harm. Sadly, I'm not talking about how things -should be-, but about the way things -are-.

Having said this, Mairkurion, I must say the world needs a couple billions more people like you, perhaps then things would be different.

I'd love to state my agreement with your final statement, but that probably would undo the compliment you are paying me. ;)

Yeah, there's something perverse about human nature that so many advancements come from warfare. Or, can we say, there is something providential that good comes even from our evil?

Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:


As far as the ethical issues with space travel -- they are nowhere near analogous to those with human cloning.

I didn't mean to suggest they were - only pointing out the fallacy in your logic. I support space travel 100%.

I was not even aware that we had this exchange...something seems to be missing to me...like the post where you point out a fallacy in my logic.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Yeah, there's something perverse about human nature that so many advancements come from warfare. Or, can we say, there is something providential that good comes even from our evil?

I think it has a lot to do with the nature of politics. Funding for big research projects is unlikely to come from private sources. They may simply not have that kind of money to spend and they may be unwilling to make the risky investment that would pay off not a quarter or two down the road, but ten years down the road. Furthermore even if they were, it's not necessarily best for everybody if the discovery is always owned and administered on a for-profit basis. This is why drug companies get temporary monopolies on new drugs instead of permanent exclusive rights.

It also used to be why copyrights ran out in seven years, but that's a different story.

Many people, regardless of political orientation, are of the opinion that the number one purpose of the state is to fund a military. Thus expenditures for military projects are more or less sacrosanct, regardless of who is in power. Funding for non-military science? Well, if you read the news at all in the past few months you know that's hardly something that enjoys universal support. Not even if the science has obvious public health or protection applications. Or at least that's how it seems to work in the US.

The Exchange

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:


I was not even aware that we had this exchange...something seems to be missing to me...like the post where you point out a fallacy in my logic.

You're right...turns out I was pointing out the fallacy in someone else's logic. The original poster was Crimson Jester. Since you made a later comment about it, I assumed it was you who made the original. Sorry. :)


No biggie, FDW. I just have to enforce these sanity checks on myself ever once in a while. The day I catch myself having conversations I don't know about is the day that I take that long unscheduled vacation that everyone keeps suggesting I take...

The Exchange

Already too late

The Exchange

Here you go...a little protien to protect the next generation of humans from radiation.

link

I guess we can add the genes that produce it to the next generation of moron...

Dark Archive

There were a couple of clones in my high school. Jared and Jason somethingorother, identical twins, made from the same egg that split in half and turned into two genetically identical people.

So really, I don't get the whole idea of being skeered of clones. There are tons of them living among us, hooking up with our wimminfolk and taking our jobs and sometimes speaking some creepy personal language that only their twin shares with them. Just like there've always been.

(And, even funner, according to Church doctrine, the soul is issued at the precise moment of conception, and not at some later point in the developmental process. According to dudes with little cameras, the blastocyte doesn't split into twins for up to forty-eight hours, meaning that one of those dudes, either Jared or Jason, didn't get a soul, and was an evil abomination walking this earth in some blasphemous parody of human existence. Since it's hard to tell which one got the soul and which one didn't, I suppose we should just kill them all on general principle. Genetic freaks!)

I can't wait for them to figure out how to clone meat and tissue independent of a body. The whole vegan / vegetarian movement is gonna have a hard time railing against people who buy 10 lbs of beef that came from a 10 x 10 sheet grown on a enormous flat-pan teeming with nutrient solution, while the bovine donor grazes contentedly outside the meat factory. Bessie would put her thumbs up in approval, if she had thumbs... It will also make mink coats fashionable, since the mink will donate a tiny patch of fur-bearing skin, which can then be grown out into a vast sheet of furry skin, many yards across, to make one-piece mink bedspreads and the like. The technology is already being used to grow skin for burn victims in the lab, so it's not at all unreasonable to project it forward and put in our orders for 10' by 10' sheets of filet mignon for that big grilling contest!

Liberty's Edge

Have they cloned dingoes yet? They're like marsupial dogs, right?


Heathansson wrote:
Have they cloned dingoes yet? They're like marsupial dogs, right?

Regular dogs, not marsupial.

You're thinking of drop bears again.

Liberty's Edge

They are marsupial too.
That's why their pups are called Joeys.


Heathansson wrote:

They are marsupial too.

That's why their pups are called Joeys.

Dhole: African pack dog similar to the dingo, or wormlike monstrosity inhabiting the Vale of Pnoth?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I say we actually WAIT until we're out there before we start cloning for "repopulation" purposes: we've got enough people on this rock as it is.

Unless we're doing cloning for the sake of clone armies doing battle on some insignificant country, like France or something. Then I'm all for it.[/jest]

Dark Archive

I vote yes for cloning and yes for splicing. I want my catgirl asap damn it!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

David Fryer wrote:
I vote yes for cloning and yes for splicing. I want my catgirl asap damn it!

Crap, I completely forgot about the catgirls...

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Heathansson wrote:

They are marsupial too.

That's why their pups are called Joeys.
Dhole: African pack dog similar to the dingo, or wormlike monstrosity inhabiting the Vale of Pnoth?

RONCO says....."IT'S BOTH!!!"

The Exchange

still waiting on those Tasmanian Tiger Clones...

Liberty's Edge

I heard the dna from the fetal sample is too degraded to be of any use.

Sovereign Court Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder

For me, I'm firmly in support for them to do whatever they need to do to clone organs, ASAP.

My youngest son is a heart transplant recipient. It's a ABO mismatch, so it's a relatively new procedure, with the very first recipient in their teens now. So, his life expectancy is unknown.

I strongly hope that we get all these puritan ethics out of the way of progress, and make it so my son can have his OWN heart grown when he needs it most. I give it 15-20 yrs. They'd better be there by then.

As for cloning the whole person....I could really care less.

The Exchange

Heathansson wrote:
I heard the dna from the fetal sample is too degraded to be of any use.

Liars...Bet The scientists are all part of a Christian Coalition against Cloning and are sabotaging the cloning program from within.

The Exchange

Timitius wrote:

For me, I'm firmly in support for them to do whatever they need to do to clone organs, ASAP.

My youngest son is a heart transplant recipient. It's a ABO mismatch, so it's a relatively new procedure, with the very first recipient in their teens now. So, his life expectancy is unknown.

I strongly hope that we get all these puritan ethics out of the way of progress, and make it so my son can have his OWN heart grown when he needs it most. I give it 15-20 yrs. They'd better be there by then.

As for cloning the whole person....I could really care less.

There is your vote for Medical Cloning. Plus it ends Black Market Organ Harvesting.

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